Salvation requirements

[mikeledes]

Robert, here are a number of Protestant articles against the notion of “eternal security” and the Bible verses that prove they’re right:

christianissues.biz/perseverance.html (Also go to the link that has an article on Eternal security by Dan Corner)

lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2610

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

Acts 2:

**38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. **

Peter tells his audience to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. For what? For the forgiveness of their sins. God freely chose to confer the gift of justification through baptism.

God Bless,
Michael

1 Peter 3:21 “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Christ.”

To what baptism does this refer? It is not water baptism, but baptism of the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is real baptism, and water baptism is ritual baptism. The important thing here is that it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which puts you into the body of believers. “Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh”–it is not just by water, for that will not put away the filth of the flesh. “But the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ”–that is faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ which brought the work of the Holy Spirit into your life and regenerated you.

Jesus chose water baptism as the method whereby the HS would make a person a member of the body of Christ, and to regenerate them into new life. Water baptism is not a “bath” that one would take to clean dirt off the body. It is a washing with water in the form that Jesus commanded. Peter speaks about the water that Noah passed through, and uses it as a type of the water that believers pass through when they become members of His body. How can a person be “buried” with Christ in baptism if he does not go beneath the water? How can one “rise” into new life if one does not come up from the water? For some reason you call this a “ritual” as though it is a bad word or something! It is a ritual that Jesus commanded, and that has been practiced from the beginning in the Church that Jesus founded. For some reason, whatever faith community to which you belong is anti Catholic, I guess, so they did not teach you the truth about this.

 

[guanophore]

You misunderstand. I don’t think that Jesus was talking about a physical birth, but Nicodemus did. Sure he knew that he had been born of his mother, but thought Jesus was saying that he was going to have to do it again.

Exactly! Because all good Jews knew that children were from God, and born “from above”. So, if Jesus told him you must be born “from above” of water and the spirit, it must mean to enter the mothers womb again! But Jesus was not talking about physical birth, he was talking about spiritual birth, which happens during water baptism, as Jesus commanded.

My other questions are:

Why did Jesus command baptism?

Why did the Apostles baptize?

Why did one of the Apostles tell us that baptism now saves?

You have stil not answered these questions. You also made up a concept called “ritual baptism” that is nowhere found in the bible. You made up something that does not exist so that you could reject the teachings of Christ and His apostles!

Jesus commanded a lot of things, does that mean that they are all necessary for salvation? How about the 10 commandments? Are they all necessary for salvation?

and guess what else!

(Ps 33[34]:13)? If hearing this thou answerest, “I
am he,” God saith to thee: “If thou wilt have true and everlasting life, keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile; turn away from evil and do good; seek after peace and pursue it” (Ps 33[34]:14-15).

Blind faith is encouraged nowhere in Scripture.

God Bless,
Robert

No, but there are also none so blind as those who do not wish to see.

 

[Robert902]

Catholics understand that salvation is up to God, and do not presume upon Him to be saved. However, Catholics also take into account the whole of salvation history, from the revelation of God to Abraham to the teaching of the apostles. In looking at this big picture, we can see that God created man with free will, and therefore, we have choices. It is also clear from the evidence that a person can turn their back on God, or after beginning with Him, fail to persist. This in no way detracts from the sacrifice of Christ, or the power of God to preserve us, but it is consistent with His revelation to us that we have a choice whether we wish to remain with Him or not.

Along those lines, what is the “lampstand” of which is spoken in Revelation?

For Jesus to “remove your lampstand from it’s place” would mean the church would cease to be an effective church. Just as the seven-branched candlestick in the temple gave light for the priests to see, the churches were to give light to their surrounding communities. But Jesus warned them that their lights could go out. In fact Jesus Himself would extinguish any light that did not fulfill it’s purpose. The church had to repent of it’s sins.

Rev 2:5
5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent."

 

[Robert902]

He knows who is predestined, but we don’t. Looking back after the fact, we know that Little Therese was predestined, but she didn’t know that, and there is no way that her friends and relatives could have known, while she was still alive. It’s only after she died that we find out that she never committed any sin after baptism, but while she was still alive, there was no way for anyone to know that she would continue and remain without sin for her whole life. She herself acknowledged that she was often tempted.

And sin after baptism merits the same death penalty that sin before baptism merits. We are to walk in the way of the Cross, which means obedience no matter what.

So what happens if I sin after I am baptized?

 

[Robert902]

You accuse me of taking liberties with the scripture when the verse I quoted clearly indicates that Jesus is talking about eternal life? The rich young man did not ask him about living a Christian life. He asked him about ETERNAL LIFE. Jesus answered his question on eternal life. When he says “to enter life”, Robert, he is saying to “enter into eternal life.” The context clearly establishes that fact.

Jesus did not say enter into eternal life, He said “enter life.” Matt19:17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” Do you actually think that you can enter eternal life by obeying the commandments? But you can “enter life” by obeying them the best that you can. The point of this story about the rich young man is that he put his money before God. The first commandment is that we are to have no other god’s before us. This rich young man had money as his god.

Matthew 19:16-17 (KJV)

**16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. **

 

[Robert902]

**20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. **

How does saved by water apply to the 8? Are you saying that saved by water=baptism here?

 

[Robert902]

Exactly! Because all good Jews knew that children were from God, and born “from above”. So, if Jesus told him you must be born “from above” of water and the spirit, it must mean to enter the mothers womb again! But Jesus was not talking about physical birth, he was talking about spiritual birth, which happens during water baptism, as Jesus commanded.

My other questions are:

Why did Jesus command baptism?

Why did the Apostles baptize?

Why did one of the Apostles tell us that baptism now saves?

You have stil not answered these questions. You also made up a concept called “ritual baptism” that is nowhere found in the bible. You made up something that does not exist so that you could reject the teachings of Christ and His apostles!

I did answer your questions in a previous post. The word rapture is not found in the bible, and neither is the word trinity. My point was that water baptism is a ritual, and is not necessary for salvation. I am not trying to discount the need to be baptized. I have many Catholic friends who were baptized and have no biblical concept of salvation. They have no interest in spiritual things. They bear no fruit, and in many ways are like the rich young man that Jesus spoke to who walked away from Jesus because he put his wealth before God.
For them external ceremonies take the place of internal worship. The sacrament or ritual becomes the means of grace instead of symbols of grace.
They are mistaken, and believe that they can save themselves by participating in some ritual or ceremony.

and guess what else!

(Ps 33[34]:13)? If hearing this thou answerest, “I
am he,” God saith to thee: “If thou wilt have true and everlasting life, keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile; turn away from evil and do good; seek after peace and pursue it” (Ps 33[34]:14-15).

No, but there are also none so blind as those who do not wish to see.

 

[Randy_Carson]

So what happens if I sin after I am baptized?

You go to confession.

 

[guanophore]

For Jesus to “remove your lampstand from it’s place” would mean the church would cease to be an effective church. Just as the seven-branched candlestick in the temple gave light for the priests to see, the churches were to give light to their surrounding communities. But Jesus warned them that their lights could go out. In fact Jesus Himself would extinguish any light that did not fulfill it’s purpose. The church had to repent of it’s sins.

Rev 2:5
5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent."

Does that mean you believe that members of the church could be believing, and effective, then cease to be such? If their light goes out, does that mean that their since have caused them to fall away from their faith?

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

No, it is Saint Peter saying that, however, it is the teaching that has been handed down to us from the apostles.

My point was that water baptism is a ritual, and is not necessary for salvation.  I am not trying to discount the need to be baptized.

Please define what you mean by “ritual” and explain why Jesus commanded this one.

I have many Catholic friends who were baptized and have no biblical concept of salvation. They have no interest in spiritual things. They bear no fruit, and in many ways are like the rich young man that Jesus spoke to who walked away from Jesus because he put his wealth before God.

This is a sad but accurate description of many nominal Christains in America. You are right, being baptized alone is not sufficient unto salvation for those who do not obey Christ.

For them external ceremonies take the place of internal worship. The sacrament or ritual becomes the means of grace instead of symbols of grace.

I have a couple thoughts on this. One is that it is not for one person to judge another’s heart. There is no way to tell when observing Catholics at Mass whether their internal worship is pure before God. I judged Catholics this way myself for many years before I understood that I was the one in sin. Secondly, the sacraments ARE the means of grace, as well as external signs of inward realities.

They are mistaken, and believe that they can save themselves by participating in some ritual or ceremony.

I would have to agree with you here that anyone who thinks they can save themselves by participating in a ritual or ceremony is mistaken. However, who are you to judge another’s heart?

 

[mikeledes]

Jesus did not say enter into eternal life, He said “enter life.” Matt19:17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” Do you actually think that you can enter eternal life by obeying the commandments? But you can “enter life” by obeying them the best that you can. The point of this story about the rich young man is that he put his money before God. The first commandment is that we are to have no other god’s before us. This rich young man had money as his god.

Matthew 19:16-17 (KJV)

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

The fact that Jesus does not use “eternal” in reference to enter into life does not mean that that “life” is not a reference to eternal life:

John 5:29

29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The life being referenced in this verse is eternal. Finally, let’s look at a similar verse:

Luke 10:25-28

25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

What was Jesus’s response to the man’s question on eternal life? He said DO THIS (i.e. love God and neighbor) and you will LIVE.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

You accuse me of taking liberties with the scripture when the verse I quoted clearly indicates that Jesus is talking about eternal life? The rich young man did not ask him about living a Christian life. He asked him about ETERNAL LIFE. Jesus answered his question on eternal life. When he says “to enter life”, Robert, he is saying to “enter into eternal life.” The context clearly establishes that fact.

Matthew 19:16-17 (KJV)

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

This is supported by Matthew 7:21

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

And:

Galatians 6:7-9

7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

And:

Luke 10:25-28

25And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

And:

1 Timothy 6:19-19 (KJV)

18That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
19Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

And:

Romans 2:6-7 (KJV)

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

The plain words of the Bible are pretty clear. It’s absurd to say otherwise.

God bless,
Michael

BTW, there were other verse in this post that did not receive a response.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[jmcrae]

So what happens if I sin after I am baptized?

Catholics can go to Confession and then receive Holy Communion at Mass.

I have no idea what other people do.

 

[guanophore]

So what happens if I sin after I am baptized?

You are on the road to perdition! If you sin, you are no longer “in Christ” and if you are not “in Christ” you will not be saved.

4 Every one who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness." 1 John 3:4

8 He who commits sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning." 1 John 3:7-8

Guess what happened to the debbil?

 

[Robert902]

You go to confession.

This is the part that doesn’t make any sense to me. I confess my sins to a priest, am forgiven, say my penance and shortly after that I sin again. If I die before I get to a confessional to confess that sin, do I go to hell?
Why can’t I confess my sins directly to God throught Jesus Christ? After all, the Bible tells me that He is the one and only mediator between God and me.

God Bless,
Robert

 

[jmcrae]

This is the part that doesn’t make any sense to me. I confess my sins to a priest, am forgiven, say my penance and shortly after that I sin again. If I die before I get to a confessional to confess that sin, do I go to hell?

Nobody goes to Hell who wasn’t already on their way there. That being said, if you commit a mortal sin shortly after going to Confession, then something is seriously the matter with your spiritual life, and yes, you would go to Hell.

Why can’t I confess my sins directly to God throught Jesus Christ? After all, the Bible tells me that He is the one and only mediator between God and me.

Christ is the only one who could die on the Cross for our sins, yes. (The priest in the Confessional is not dying on the Cross for my sins, believe me.)

But He Himself appointed the Apostles and their successors (our Catholic Bishops and priests) to hear our Confessions and to grant us the Absolution. John 20:23 says, Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

 

[Robert902]

Does that mean you believe that members of the church could be believing, and effective, then cease to be such? If their light goes out, does that mean that their since have caused them to fall away from their faith?

Each one (The 7 churches in the Book of Revelation) is a composite picture of the church. There is something that is applicable to all churches in all ages in each message to each individual church. In other words, when you read the message to the church in Pergamum, there is a message for your church and a message for you personally.
He first gives a word of commendation, then He gives a word of condemnation. There is no word of condemnation to Smyrna or Philadelphia. Smyrna was the martyr church, and He is not about to condemn that church. Philadelphia was the missionary church that was getting out His word, and He didn’t condemn it. He has no word of condemnation for Laodicea, the apostate church.

No, it is Saint Peter saying that, however, it is the teaching that has been handed down to us from the apostles.

Please define what you mean by “ritual” and explain why Jesus commanded this one.

Websters definition. 1. Established procedure for a religious or other rite. 2. Prescribed, established, or ceremonial acts or features collectively. 3. Any practice or pattern of behavior regularly performed in a set manner.

Why was Jesus baptized? Because it (salvation) was necessary for salvation?
What does the water symbolize? What does immersion and sprinkling symbolize?
The water symbolizes the blood of Jesus, the sprinkling symbolizes the washing away of our sins by the blood of Jesus, and the immersion represents death.
Jesus commanded many things, but that doesn’t mean that those things are required for our salvation.
Being baptized is an act and a sign of obedience. Everything necessary for our salvation has been provided by Jesus death on the cross.
Jesus came to earth to set an example for us. Jesus was baptized as an example for us to be baptized. He sure didn’t need baptism to be saved.

This is a sad but accurate description of many nominal Christains in America. You are right, being baptized alone is not sufficient unto salvation for those who do not obey Christ.

I have a couple thoughts on this. One is that it is not for one person to judge another’s heart. There is no way to tell when observing Catholics at Mass whether their internal worship is pure before God. I judged Catholics this way myself for many years before I understood that I was the one in sin. Secondly, the sacraments ARE the means of grace, as well as external signs of inward realities.

So if we ignore the sacraments, God will withhold His grace?

The bible tells us to be “fruit inspectors”. I wasn’t judging, I was only pointing out that many Christians/Catholics think that the sacraments/rituals/ceremonies save them.

I would have to agree with you here that anyone who thinks they can save themselves by participating in a ritual or ceremony is mistaken. However, who are you to judge another’s heart?

Only God can judge them. I’ll say it again…many Catholics/Christians think that the ritual/ceremony/sacraments save them. People connect only to the institution through the mechanical works rather than to the living Christ.

 

[cor]

This is the part that doesn’t make any sense to me. I confess my sins to a priest, am forgiven, say my penance and shortly after that I sin again. If I die before I get to a confessional to confess that sin, do I go to hell?

You can, inspired by God’s grace make an act of perfect contrition which means a prayer to God expressing your sorrow out of love for him. Then you wouldn’t go to hell; you would go to heaven (or to purgatory first and then heaven)

This is just my opinion now, but I think one needn’t worry about dying before getting to a confessional or things like that because ultimately it is all in God’s hands. Ultimately, salvation, in my personal belief anyway, depends not on man’s efforts but on God’s mercy and love which is boundless – his mercy is not bounded by his justice, nor is his love bounded by his wrath; God is love itself. Mary is the mother of mercy; she has a merciful heart towards all, even those who do not acknowledge her (and so in some traditional prayers Catholics ask her to pray for those who don’t have recourse to her) – but in my view God’s mercy is greater for Mary’s merciful heart has its source in God’s merciful heart. Our salvation is in the hands of Love.

Why can’t I confess my sins directly to God throught Jesus Christ? After all, the Bible tells me that He is the one and only mediator between God and me.

God Bless,
Robert

Let’s not add to the written word of God. The verse I think you are referring to says in the English translation “one mediator” not “one and only.” Maybe there’s not much of a difference but we should be careful all the same. And the passage is talking about Jesus’ mediation in the objective redemption of mankind, i.e. the “atonement.” It’s not talking about how God distributes his graces through various instruments – which is what the sacrament of confession is, it is a sign and instrument of God’s grace. It’s like how Jesus told some people to wash to get well (John 9:7); Jesus tells people – at least as understood by Catholicism – to go to confession to get well – where, he will be there, just as he was for the blind man in John 9, to heal you and bring you to divine life.

One is confessing both to the priest as well as directly to God in confession. Afterall, God is present there and can hear what you say there. And in confession (and also outside of confession), Catholics say this prayer:

ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/contrit.htm

or something similar or something with a similar theme

God bless you in your walk with God, Robert. If you can and feel moved to, say a prayer for my walk as well.

 

[Robert902]

The fact that Jesus does not use “eternal” in reference to enter into life does not mean that that “life” is not a reference to eternal life:

If you want to ignore specific words and groups of words that’s up to you. But if Jesus had wanted to say eternal life instead of enter life I think He would have had the ability to do that.

 

[jmcrae]

If you want to ignore specific words and groups of words that’s up to you. But if Jesus had wanted to say eternal life instead of enter life I think He would have had the ability to do that.

I take it the person was already actually alive, right?

So, Jesus could not have meant anything other than eternal life, which is the only kind of life that we aren’t already born with.