Salvation requires belief in Mary's Perpetual VIRGINITY?

[AgnosTheist]

What a sad statement. Not everyone runs their life by their sexual urges. It is sad to see that you feel that one must either be gay or on top of every women in their sight.

Not every woman, just your wife. how is that sad?

Love does not always equal sex.

Yeah but marriage does. Especially if Joseph & Mary fell in-love with one another. Its a go go for sex!

 

[wanner47]

If you married a man and refused to ever have sex with him, not even once for years. what kind of person does that make you? Someone who is not nice.

Given that Joseph had been told BY AN ANGEL OF GOD that he should remain celibate, somehow I don’t think he had a problem with it. The consent was mutual.

Also, it’s speculated that Mary was a temple virgin, and she was married to Joseph to protect her virginity, since he may have been an older widower with children already (hence Jesus’ “brothers”).

 

[AgnosTheist]

Would you think yourself worthy of the deed to someone you believed brought Jesus into this world? Someone obviously chosen by God?

sure. david & solomon were chosen and look at how many sex partners they had. A LOT!

Now there was no indication that mary & joseph believed that the baby is god.

 

[BrewMax]

A catholic said:

“Let me just put it this way. The belief in virginity of Mary is essential because this belief confers that Mary conceived Jesus as a virgin, and that she had no other children after Jesus was born.”

"Let me uses Jesus Christ own words. He said this to his apostles. “He who hears you, hears me, he who rejects you rejects me. He who rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

The Church declare Mary to be a virgin before and after the birth of Jesus Christ. When the Church speaks, Jesus speaks also. Therefore rejecting this true is rejecting what he has taught. Jesus was given authority from the Father, His teaching is not his own, but from God, the Father.

End of Discussion. You cannot separate the teachings of the Church with that of Jesus Christ. Hence the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. He is the Head. So if a Christian deny this truth that Mary is not a virgin, then he is denying the very words of Jesus Christ himself."

Is this true? If you dont believe in the perpetual virginity, your faith in Jesus and your good works are for nothing? If you dont believe in the perpetual virginity, you cannot be saved? This means that every non-catholic christians (who dont believe the idea) are false christians?

no way, never. Nothing in Scripture that supports this and I for one do NOT believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin.

 

[ericss]

We should separate the question “Does Salvation require belief in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity?” from the idea of rejecting the teaching of the Catholic Church. As it says on this page:

catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp :

“while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).”

Therefore the Catholic Church allows that there may be circumstances in which salvation is possible without holding all of the beliefs of the Church, presumably including the perpetual viriginity of Mary. This is a different issue than consciously rejecting the Church’s teachings however.

 

[wanner47]

We should separate the question “Does Salvation require belief in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity?” from the idea of rejecting the teaching of the Catholic Church. As it says on this page:

catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp :

“while it is normatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).”

Therefore the Catholic Church allows that there may be circumstances in which salvation is possible without holding all of the beliefs of the Church, presumably including the perpetual viriginity of Mary. This is a different issue than consciously rejecting the Church’s teachings however.

But the Church also holds that if you KNOW the Church teachings the Truth and you STILL reject its authority or its teachings, you will NOT be saved.

You can’t say, “Well, I know that the Catholic Church is the one founded by Christ, and I accept the Church’s teaching authority, just not on this issue.”

 

[look3467]

Actually it is.

To state that Mary and Joseph had normal relations and further children is to deny that her body (and her flesh which became HIS flesh as God-made-man) was a living temple of God the Son. Holy and sacred and untouchable as the Ark of the Covenant or the Burning Bush or the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem.

Thus it is actually to deny that Christ was both true God and true man - ONE person with two natures, divine and human. Mary was the mother of the whole person, not just of one of the natures. Just as if I am a lawyer my mother is mother of a lawyer even if she didn’t give me my degree or my job.

In other words you are failing to acknowledge who and what Christ truly was. Which failure could seriously compromise your salvation.

Point being the Marian doctrines are never just about Mary, but point to truths about Christ Himself.

I am apprciative of the Virgin mary as I am for the Jews.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

And of Mary: Mar 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

The other Mary was the Mary whose 7 devils were cast out.

peace>>>AJ

 

[ericss]

But the Church also holds that if you KNOW the Church teachings the Truth and you STILL reject its authority or its teachings, you will NOT be saved.

Right - that’s why I said we should separate the two questions. Is belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity required for salvation? The answer must be “no, not in all cases.” That is different from rejecting the teaching, however.

 

[ericss]

But the Church also holds that if you KNOW the Church teachings the Truth and you STILL reject its authority or its teachings, you will NOT be saved.

Right - that’s why I said we should separate the two questions. Is belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity required for salvation? The answer must be “no, not in all cases.” That is different from rejecting the teaching, however.

 

[LilyM]

If you married a man and refused to ever have sex with him, not even once for years. what kind of person does that make you? Someone who is not nice.

Where in the bible is it even implied that Mary refused? Where is it written that Joseph was driven by his glands and begging for his conjugal rights and Mary said ‘sorry, I’ve got a permanent headache’?

Joseph was told by the angel that she was to bear the son of God. That made Mary in effect already espoused to God the Father.

Joseph, being a devout Jew, knew that that which is consecrated to God (as Mary’s body was, being His temple) is untouchable as the Ark of the Covenant was, un-enterable as the Holy of Holies was in the Temple. He knew better than to attempt sex with God’s betrothed.

And he always could have refused to marry her - indeed he was considering breaking the engagement before the angel appeared, remember. Nothing forced him to marry Mary. Every indication is that he took on celibacy willingly, as priests, monks and nuns do today.

If even today people find it in their hearts to marry the permanently medically impotent (paraplegics etc) and make successful marriages with them, then why is it so inconceivable that Joseph and Mary similarly willingly took on celibacy in order to better devote themselves to their primary task - the raising of the Son of God???

 

[Goth_Catholic]

sure. david & solomon were chosen and look at how many sex partners they had. A LOT!

Now there was no indication that mary & joseph believed that the baby is god.

David and Solomon did not carry the word incarnated and were not free of orignal sin.

“…therefore the holy thing what shall be born unto thee, shall be called the Son of God.” Luke 1:35

“And what is this to me, that the mother of my LORD should come unto me?” Luke 1: 43

"His mother saith unto the servants “Whatever he saith unto you, do it.” John 2:5

 

[RomanCrusader]

I’m not quite as Marian as most Catholics, so I’d guess no (no disrespect to the most holy eternal Virgin). However, I may be wrong here.

 

[AgnosTheist]

David and Solomon did not carry the word incarnated and were not free of orignal sin.

the idea that jesus is god only began some 30 years after the birth of jesus.

“…therefore the holy thing what shall be born unto thee, shall be called the Son of God.” Luke 1:35

like this…

Psalms 2:7
I will proclaim the decree of the Lord: He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”

Exodus 4:22
And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord: Israel is my son, my firstborn.

ok so ‘son of god’ isnt anything new. why should luke 1:35 give joseph & mary the idea that jesus is god?

“And what is this to me, that the mother of my LORD should come unto me?” Luke 1: 43

the jewish messiah is supposed to be a lord.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Ahh, now you show the extent of your intelligence.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.” John 1:1

“The word became flesh and dwelt among us.” John 1:14

 

[kim3260]

Why do so many non-Catholics have this obsession with Mary and Joseph’s marriage? It just boggles my mind.

When the angel appeared to him, he understood and he accepted it completely, I don’t recall any thing about Joseph saying “Hey, how about my needs or what’s in it for me?”

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

A catholic said:

“Let me just put it this way. The belief in virginity of Mary is essential because this belief confers that Mary conceived Jesus as a virgin, and that she had no other children after Jesus was born.”

"Let me uses Jesus Christ own words. He said this to his apostles. “He who hears you, hears me, he who rejects you rejects me. He who rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

The Church declare Mary to be a virgin before and after the birth of Jesus Christ. When the Church speaks, Jesus speaks also. Therefore rejecting this true is rejecting what he has taught. Jesus was given authority from the Father, His teaching is not his own, but from God, the Father.

End of Discussion. You cannot separate the teachings of the Church with that of Jesus Christ. Hence the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. He is the Head. So if a Christian deny this truth that Mary is not a virgin, then he is denying the very words of Jesus Christ himself."
Is this true? If you dont believe in the perpetual virginity, your faith in Jesus and your good works are for nothing? If you dont believe in the perpetual virginity, you cannot be saved? This means that every non-catholic christians (who dont believe the idea) are false christians?

That kind of argument, from authority & nothing else, does nothing for me. It does not show that the belief is good, or true, or reasonable, or well-founded in the Bible, or that it fits the “shape” of Christian faith. It does not show any of these, or even try to.​

Authority - even Church authority - has no necessary connection with truth or any other other good thing. It is by itself neutral: one can use it for good, or, for evil. It is one thing to say that the authority of Christ is exercised by the Church - that does not in the slightest logically require one to see in every exercise of Church authority. Church authority is exercised by human beings, who are not sinless, or perfect in any way, so it is illegitimate to reason from the promises of Christ, to the absolute & universal binding authority of every Churchly exercise of the authority bestowed on her.

If it were legitimate to reason like that, it would follow that Christ’s authority was exercised, rightly, by the tribunal which condemned St. Joan of Arc to the flames. How can a sinful act (as that was later judged to be) have the authority of Christ behind it ? Authority has to be judged by its moral character - if it commands evil, that command is not Christ’s, because it denies His Righteous character.

 

[BrewMax]

Why do so many non-Catholics have this obsession with Mary and Joseph’s marriage? It just boggles my mind.

When the angel appeared to him, he understood and he accepted it completely, I don’t recall any thing about Joseph saying “Hey, how about my needs or what’s in it for me?”

what obsession?? The Scriptures tell the truthful story don’t they?? Joseph did not have physical relation wth Mary until Jesus was born.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Where in the bible is it even implied that Mary refused? Where is it written that Joseph was driven by his glands and begging for his conjugal rights and Mary said ‘sorry, I’ve got a permanent headache’?

Where in the bible is implied that mary never had sex after the birth of jesus? You see, everything about mary (whether catholic or not) is an assumption. All I’m saying is that there is nothing realistic with the idea that mary & joseph did give in to the consumation of their marriage.

Joseph was told by the angel that she was to bear the son of God. That made Mary in effect already espoused to God the Father.

like i said, ‘son of god’ isnt new to jews.

Joseph, being a devout Jew, knew that that which is consecrated to God (as Mary’s body was, being His temple) is untouchable as the Ark of the Covenant was, un-enterable as the Holy of Holies was in the Temple.

As a devoted Jew Joseph should have a very good idea that Samson was consecrated to God, and yet free to have sex without penalty.

He knew better than to attempt sex with God’s betrothed.

As a devoted Jew the idea of “God’s bethrothed” is blasphemous!

And he always could have refused to marry her - indeed he was considering breaking the engagement before the angel appeared, remember. Nothing forced him to marry Mary. Every indication is that he took on celibacy willingly, as priests, monks and nuns do today.

There is a very good chance that he was in-love with mary. That kind of love conquers all.

If even today people find it in their hearts to marry the permanently medically impotent (paraplegics etc) and make successful marriages with them, then why is it so inconceivable that Joseph and Mary similarly willingly took on celibacy in order to better devote themselves to their primary task - the raising of the Son of God???

examples?

in judaism, having an heir is extremely & religiously important to jews.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Why do so many non-Catholics have this obsession with Mary and Joseph’s marriage? It just boggles my mind.

for me, i’m in it for its entertainment value. joseph → gay…harharhar!

 

[Goth_Catholic]

what obsession?? The Scriptures tell the truthful story don’t they?? Joseph did not have physical relation wth Mary until Jesus was born.

You mean “And he knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son.” Matthew 1:25 ? Well first of all, it doesn’t say he did not have relatiosn with her, just that he knew her not.

Plus, I don’t know about you, but my KJV misspells public and privately just in that first chapter. Not to mection the insensative badly translated english. 100:1 the original scripture says something entirely different.