Salvation through christ church affiliation

[ReformedCatholic]

LilyM:

Wrong wrong wrong - if you miss Mass because you’re performing an urgent work of mercy I doubt anyone would have a problem with it. However, even for Jesus himself there was urgent and non-urgent work. After all, didn’t he say ‘the poor you will always have with you?’

Remember how he welcomed the woman who anointed his feet with expensive perfume to do him honour instead of spending the money on the poor? And how he praised Mary for staying at his feet and listening to him instead of running about doing ‘many things’ like Martha?

Since we Catholics believe that Jesus is really present in a unique way in the Eucharist, when we make attendance at Mass mandatory we show ourselves to be aware of the ‘one thing which is needful’ (that is, spending time in the presence of the Lord) in the same way as Mary was.

If I were to miss Mass for non-urgent reasons I’m sure I would hear Jesus saying, as he did to the apostles in Gethsemane ‘could you not stay with me even one hour?’ And then there’s the little matter of the commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy. Sunday being our holy day the least we can do is spend one hour of it in God’s house.

Let’s say it’s not urgent. Let’s say it’s just an opportunity to feed the homeless or give some desperately needed attention and mentorship to abused and abandoned children. I’m hellbound, according to catholic doctrine. Even if I intended to go later in the week, or actually attended a service of another denomination on Sunday. Hellbound. Eternal Hell. Try to rationalize it all you like, but it makes no sense in the terms of a just and loving God and any reasonable understanding of Christianity, from my point of view…

 

[DustinsDad]

Hell is full of folks who think it makes no sense for them to be in Hell.

DustinsDad

ReformedCatholic:

Let’s say it’s not urgent. Let’s say it’s just an opportunity to feed the homeless or give some desperately needed attention and mentorship to abused and abandoned children. I’m hellbound, according to catholic doctrine. Even if I intended to go later in the week, or actually attended a service of another denomination on Sunday. Hellbound. Eternal Hell. Try to rationalize it all you like, but it makes no sense in the terms of a just and loving God and any reasonable understanding of Christianity, from my point of view…

 

[ReformedCatholic]

DustinsDad:

Hell is full of folks who think it makes no sense for them to be in Hell.

DustinsDad

LOL, but you do not argue that this is inconsistent with the concept of a just and loving God.

 

[santaro75]

Scoobyshme:

So many, especially in Western affluent countries like ours, have bachelor’s, master’s, and PhD’s in worldly things, coupled with a 2nd or 3rd grade education in their faith. What do you suppose that says about their priorities? Do you think they have God as their top priority or do you think things of the world and worldliness are their top priorities. The answer should be clear.

From whom much is given, much will be expected.

This is very true. And a shame. Really. I am guilty of this.

 

[santaro75]

LilyM:

This is exactly what Judas said when the ointment was poured on Jesus’ feet - ‘she should have sold it instead and given the money to the poor’ He thought charity was the most important thing - he was mistaken and so are you. The important thing is to give honour to God - God himself wants us simply to BE with him in Church, for that one hour a week that he has mandated - that is the highest honour, because Church is where he is most strongly present.

that was a diff scenario. But yeah he did say that.

LilyM:

It’s higher than human law, it’s divine law - ‘keep the Sabbath day holy’. Hopefully we are all doing charity and otherwise ‘walking hte walk’ every day, or at least as often as we can. If you don’t worship on Sunday there is nothing different about it, nothing special, nothing about it is ‘set apart’ uniquely for God. It’s more than paying taxes, it is showing our gratitude to God by doing something for him that benefits and pleases Him alone, and doesn’t add anything or provide any benefit either for ourselves or any other earthly (inferior) creature.

I agree with alot of what you are saying. But I think that the mass is really more for us than it is for God. I know that God is pleased when we praise him, but I think the mass is there for us to be made even the more present to him unlike any other place.

 

[Strider]

ReformedCatholic:

Let’s say it’s not urgent. Let’s say it’s just an opportunity to feed the homeless or give some desperately needed attention and mentorship to abused and abandoned children. I’m hellbound, according to catholic doctrine. Even if I intended to go later in the week, or actually attended a service of another denomination on Sunday. Hellbound. Eternal Hell. Try to rationalize it all you like, but it makes no sense in the terms of a just and loving God and any reasonable understanding of Christianity, from my point of view…

It seems to me that you’re looking for a reason to throw a “regulation” back at the Catholic Church.
In Deut 5:12, God says, “Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.”
In Jhn 6:53, Jesus said, “Truly, Truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”
In Mt 26:26 Jesus consecrates bread and wine into his body and blood. In the consecration narrative in Lk 22:19 he adds “Do this in rememberance of me.”
This all establishes that the Catholic Church, which Jesus established in Mt 16:18 has the body and blood of Christ, which HE (Not the Church) commanded us to eat, and that GOD commanded us to Keep his day holy.
Most Catholic churches have vigil Masses at 5:00 on Saturday evening. Depending on the size of the area, there are two, three or four Masses on Sunday. Some places even have a LifeTeen Mass at 6:00 P.M. Sunday evening.
It seems to me that you could feed a whole lot of starving and clothe a whole lot of naked and mentor a whole lot of needy kids and still make it to Mass in a Catholic church some time between 5:00 Saturday and 6:00 Sunday.
You might even be able to squeeze in a little carpentry for Habitat for Humanity, too.
And nowhere have I quoted any rule or regulation of the Catholic Church. I’ve merely quoted Scripture.
You can find the time to do what you choose to do or you can use charity as a cop-out, but at least be honest about it. You don’t like rules.

 

[DustinsDad]

ReformedCatholic:

LOL, but you do not argue that this is inconsistent with the concept of a just and loving God.

Didn’t mean it as a joke, and no - your concept of a just and loving God seems to be completely out of wack.

You see, it’s not about damning yourself to Hell for missing an hour here or whatever, it’s about damning yourself to Hell for assuming you can save yourself on your own terms rather than on Christ’s terms.

You seem to think salvation is based on you being a nice guy rather than on being a disciple of Christ. And again, I’d hazard a guess that hell is full of nice guys who think it makes no sense for them to be in hell. And they’ll spend eternity in desparate agony hating a God who in their mind isn’t as smart, or as merciful, or as just as they are.

DustinsDad

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Strider:

It seems to me that you’re looking for a reason to throw a “regulation” back at the Catholic Church.
In Deut 5:12, God says, “Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.”
In Jhn 6:53, Jesus said, “Truly, Truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”
In Mt 26:26 Jesus consecrates bread and wine into his body and blood. In the consecration narrative in Lk 22:19 he adds “Do this in rememberance of me.”
This all establishes that the Catholic Church, which Jesus established in Mt 16:18 has the body and blood of Christ, which HE (Not the Church) commanded us to eat, and that GOD commanded us to Keep his day holy.
Most Catholic churches have vigil Masses at 5:00 on Saturday evening. Depending on the size of the area, there are two, three or four Masses on Sunday. Some places even have a LifeTeen Mass at 6:00 P.M. Sunday evening.
It seems to me that you could feed a whole lot of starving and clothe a whole lot of naked and mentor a whole lot of needy kids and still make it to Mass in a Catholic church some time between 5:00 Saturday and 6:00 Sunday.
You might even be able to squeeze in a little carpentry for Habitat for Humanity, too.
And nowhere have I quoted any rule or regulation of the Catholic Church. I’ve merely quoted Scripture.
You can find the time to do what you choose to do or you can use charity as a cop-out, but at least be honest about it. You don’t like rules.

Okay, observe the Sabbath and keep it holy- that’s Saturday. If that’s the case then whatever you’re doing on Sunday is invalid. Looks like a lot of folks going on Sundays are going to hell. Or does the church just make up the rules as it sees fit?

Eat flesh and drink blood of the Son of man or else your dead. I don’t and I’m obviously alive. So which is it? You can’t interpret a statement literally in one half of the sentence and metaphorically in the second half and expect to have any credibility in your interpretation.

Yeah, you’ve quoted Scripture all right- all subject to interpretation. So it proves nothing.

There’s no cop-out. There’s an argument that you can’t seem to dispute with any valid counter-argument. If I miss Mass because I’m serving God, do I go to hell? That’s just stupid.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

DustinsDad:

Didn’t mean it as a joke, and no - your concept of a just and loving God seems to be completely out of wack.

You see, it’s not about damning yourself to Hell for missing an hour here or whatever, it’s about damning yourself to Hell for assuming you can save yourself on your own terms rather than on Christ’s terms.

You seem to think salvation is based on you being a nice guy rather than on being a disciple of Christ. And again, I’d hazard a guess that hell is full of nice guys who think it makes no sense for them to be in hell. And they’ll spend eternity in desparate agony hating a God who in their mind isn’t as smart, or as merciful, or as just as they are.

DustinsDad

I didn’t think it was a joke, I just thought it was funny. You need to go back and read the scenario we’re talking about. The man who misses church IS a disciple of Christ. He misses church to serve God and goes to hell for it, according to the logic posed in this thread.

 

[Tonks40]

ReformedCatholic:

Okay, observe the Sabbath and keep it holy- that’s Saturday. If that’s the case then whatever you’re doing on Sunday is invalid. Looks like a lot of folks going on Sundays are going to hell. Or does the church just make up the rules as it sees fit?

Sabbath? Did someone say Sabbath?

 

[minimars]

All these discussions about traditions and rules remind me of these passages from the Mark 7:

So the Pharisees and scribes questioned him, "Why do your disciples not follow the tradition of the elders but instead eat a meal with unclean hands?"
He responded, “Well did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.’
You disregard God’s commandment but cling to human tradition.”
He went on to say, “How well you have set aside the commandment of God in order to uphold your tradition!”
–Mark 7:5-9*

*** Tradition of the elders: the body of detailed, unwritten, human laws regarded by the scribes and Pharisees to have the same binding force as that of the Mosaic law; cf Gal 1:14.**

(From the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops’ New American Bible)

 

[santaro75]

Everyone knows 1co13. If you have ever been to a Catholic wedding you have heard this passage before. It is one of my very favorites because cuts it all down to the most important thing. Love.

All of the religious practices only mean anything if done in Love. If done in legalism they are pointless like a “resounding Gong”.

When presented in a legalistic way…No mass=going to hell…it seems very pointless.

But if said like…“the spiritual nourishment of the eucharist and the teaching from the liturgy of the word…fortifies your mind, body and spirit in renewed christian vigour so that you have the strength and spiritual power reserves, to go out into the world and faithfully lead your christian life. Which can at times be a fight for your very eternal destiny! This fight can take a lot of strength. Without the mass, you are putting your soul at risk by starving your spirit thus not having the strength to carry on your spiritual battles. The mass is your strength.” I think it would be recieved better

To say of confession…

“If you don’t go and you have sin on your soul you are hell bound.”

Or… “when you go to confession you get to be the prodigul son, where the father, through a human representative (again like the eucharist to appeal to our physical senses) embraces you, puts a ring on your finger and restores you. If the prodigul son were to have died while away, he would have been lost”

 

[Strider]

ReformedCatholic:

Okay, observe the Sabbath and keep it holy- that’s Saturday. If that’s the case then whatever you’re doing on Sunday is invalid. Looks like a lot of folks going on Sundays are going to hell. Or does the church just make up the rules as it sees fit?

Eat flesh and drink blood of the Son of man or else your dead. I don’t and I’m obviously alive. So which is it? You can’t interpret a statement literally in one half of the sentence and metaphorically in the second half and expect to have any credibility in your interpretation.

Yeah, you’ve quoted Scripture all right- all subject to interpretation. So it proves nothing.

There’s no cop-out. There’s an argument that you can’t seem to dispute with any valid counter-argument. If I miss Mass because I’m serving God, do I go to hell? That’s just stupid.

I’m living in the Church of the resurrected Christ, like St. Luke in Acts 20:7 where they “Gather on the first day of the week to break bread.” This means they celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the first day of the week, which supplanted Saturday because it was the day of the Resurrection of the Lord. Paul confirms this on Col 2:16-17. There is still a day to keep holy, but Christ sanctified Sunday.
As far as eating his flesh and drinking his blood, it’s all literal, because to our Lord, “Life” is “Grace.” I guess you mised that in your interpretation.
For my part, I trust interpretation of Scripture to those whom Christ gave the authority (binding and loosing) in Mt. 16:18 and Mt 18:18 and their successors… My Catholicism doesn’t need reforming.
And this probably won’t be of much interest to you, but # 2177 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, in part, “Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition :bigyikes: and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church.”
Nowhere there (or anywhere) does it say you cannot do good works on Sunday. It merely says that you must take time out to honor God in communion with others.

 

[DustinsDad]

ReformedCatholic:

I didn’t think it was a joke, I just thought it was funny. You need to go back and read the scenario we’re talking about. The man who misses church IS a disciple of Christ. He misses church to serve God and goes to hell for it, according to the logic posed in this thread.

No, he’s not a disciple of Christ, he’s a disciple of himself. If he were a disciple of Christ he would be doing what Christ said to do - listening to the Church, submitting to the Church. The person in your scenerio wants to side step the church and work his way into heaven by being a nice guy, but alas…the person has rejected the Church, thus rejected Christ, and finally rejecting the Father who sent Christ.

Just ain’t fair - that ol’ darn pride getting in the way of salvation again.

DustinsDad

 

[ReformedCatholic]

santaro75:

Everyone knows 1co13. If you have ever been to a Catholic wedding you have heard this passage before. It is one of my very favorites because cuts it all down to the most important thing. Love.

All of the religious practices only mean anything if done in Love. If done in legalism they are pointless like a “resounding Gong”.

When presented in a legalistic way…No mass=going to hell…it seems very pointless.

But if said like…“the spiritual nourishment of the eucharist and the teaching from the liturgy of the word…fortifies your mind, body and spirit in renewed christian vigour so that you have the strength and spiritual power reserves, to go out into the world and faithfully lead your christian life. Which can at times be a fight for your very eternal destiny! This fight can take a lot of strength. Without the mass, you are putting your soul at risk by starving your spirit thus not having the strength to carry on your spiritual battles. The mass is your strength.” I think it would be recieved better

To say of confession…

“If you don’t go and you have sin on your soul you are hell bound.”

Or… “when you go to confession you get to be the prodigul son, where the father, through a human representative (again like the eucharist to appeal to our physical senses) embraces you, puts a ring on your finger and restores you. If the prodigul son were to have died while away, he would have been lost”

This makes much more sense this way. I think these things suffer from over-simplification and therefore become unbelievable.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Strider:

I’m living in the Church of the resurrected Christ, like St. Luke in Acts 20:7 where they “Gather on the first day of the week to break bread.” This means they celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the first day of the week, which supplanted Saturday because it was the day of the Resurrection of the Lord. Paul confirms this on Col 2:16-17. There is still a day to keep holy, but Christ sanctified Sunday.
As far as eating his flesh and drinking his blood, it’s all literal, because to our Lord, “Life” is “Grace.” I guess you mised that in your interpretation.
For my part, I trust interpretation of Scripture to those whom Christ gave the authority (binding and loosing) in Mt. 16:18 and Mt 18:18 and their successors… My Catholicism doesn’t need reforming.
And this probably won’t be of much interest to you, but # 2177 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches, in part, “Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition :bigyikes: and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church.”
Nowhere there (or anywhere) does it say you cannot do good works on Sunday. It merely says that you must take time out to honor God in communion with others.

If LIFE = GRACE, then why doesn’t EAT = LOVE, and FLESH = HOLY SPIRIT, and BLOOD = CHARITY? You say it’s all literal, yet change the “literal” meaning of one of the key terms- this makes it not-literal.

My suggestion is that “whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto ME,” and that serving those less fortunate is actually serving God and therefore honoring him. You are also in communion with those you are serving (God). I don’t see the church as necessary in the manner you present. However, I can accept that it could be necessary as a source of spiritual rejuvenation and revitalization for those of this belief system.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

DustinsDad:

No, he’s not a disciple of Christ, he’s a disciple of himself. If he were a disciple of Christ he would be doing what Christ said to do - listening to the Church, submitting to the Church. The person in your scenerio wants to side step the church and work his way into heaven by being a nice guy, but alas…the person has rejected the Church, thus rejected Christ, and finally rejecting the Father who sent Christ.

Just ain’t fair - that ol’ darn pride getting in the way of salvation again.

DustinsDad

On the contrary, he is “loving God above all else” and “loving others as He loved us,” the foremost teaching of Christ. In light of this, he is doing exactly what Christ asked. The suggestion that the Church (obedience, submission to it, etc) is more important than Christ is actually a form of idolatry- ecclesiolatry.

 

[santaro75]

DustinsDad:

No, he’s not a disciple of Christ, he’s a disciple of himself. If he were a disciple of Christ he would be doing what Christ said to do - listening to the Church, submitting to the Church. The person in your scenerio wants to side step the church and work his way into heaven by being a nice guy, but alas…the person has rejected the Church, thus rejected Christ, and finally rejecting the Father who sent Christ.

Just ain’t fair - that ol’ darn pride getting in the way of salvation again.

DustinsDad

can you tell me again where Jesus said to submit to the Roman Catholic church?

 

[NotWorthy]

santaro75:

can you tell me again where Jesus said to submit to the Roman Catholic church?

Luke 10:16 - “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

Pretty clear to me!!!

How about the entire Book of Acts? The Doctrines laid down for the Gentiles in Antioch, for example, were laid down for all Gentiles.

Notworthy

 

[santaro75]

NotWorthy:

Luke 10:16 - “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

Pretty clear to me!!!

How about the entire Book of Acts? The Doctrines laid down for the Gentiles in Antioch, for example, were laid down for all Gentiles.

Notworthy

That is super stretching. there is no mention about submitting to the Church.

weak at best