Salvation through christ church affiliation

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JSmitty2005:
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. I don’t see the connection of that quote with “talking to the regular folks.”
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k, the verses preceeding the one in quotes leads up to the one in quotes. the verses preceeding…just read them and you will see what i am trying to say.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
Okay, I’ll obey Christ. No problem. But that has nothing to do with any church.
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Actually it does. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Jesus Christ is Truth, so the Church is the pillar and foundation of Christ. Likewise, Jesus it the foundation of the Church. We also know that Jesus made the Apostles the foundation of His Church for when He would ascend into Heaven. He appointed Peter to head this Apostolic group. He also said that if we don’t listen to the Church that we should be considered heathens. Considering all that, we must listen to the Church or otherwise we’d be disobeying Christ.
 
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JSmitty2005:
Hhhmmm… :hmmm: How would you suggest we do this? Through prayer?
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Just tell Him. He’s the one that absolve’s the sins. Are you saying God needs a middleman? 😃
 
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santaro75:
I would suggest you do what it takes. You know when you are forgiven, no one can tell you that.
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Do what it takes? Prayer to God?
 
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ReformedCatholic:
Are you saying God needs a middleman? 😃
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God doesn’t need anything. However, He may have established another way as part of His plan, which He can certainly do if He wishes.
 
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JSmitty2005:
Actually it does. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Jesus Christ is Truth, so the Church is the pillar and foundation of Christ. Likewise, Jesus it the foundation of the Church. We also know that Jesus made the Apostles the foundation of His Church for when He would ascend into Heaven. He appointed Peter to head this Apostolic group. He also said that if we don’t listen to the Church that we should be considered heathens. Considering all that, we must listen to the Church or otherwise we’d be disobeying Christ.
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My problem with that argument is that it sounds a lot like the Church IS Christ, which would result in a form of idolatry (worship of the church, putting the church ahead of Christ, etc.)

I think the most important things are the Two Great Commandments and if you follow those, you are doing God’s will.
 
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ReformedCatholic:
My problem with that argument is that it sounds a lot like the Church IS Christ, which would result in a form of idolatry (worship of the church, putting the church ahead of Christ, etc.)

I think the most important things are the Two Great Commandments and if you follow those, you are doing God’s will.
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Not necessarily. Christ is indubitably the Head of the Church, but the Church is also His Body. In an attempt to sever the relationship between the two, you’ve essentially decapitated Christ.
 
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JSmitty2005:
Actually it does. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Jesus Christ is Truth, so the Church is the pillar and foundation of Christ. Likewise, Jesus it the foundation of the Church.
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he never said the Roman Catholic Church. Peter had primacy amongst the apostles. He was guided and protectd by the holy spirit. The spirit was unleashed and the christian church was born.

I believe a papacy that is needed to manage the church. I don’t think he is infallible or any holier than any one of us (call no other man father). There were many many popes who were not holy. If the all powerful spirit of God was inherent to that office, evil would not be possible out of that office in my opinion. I do respect him and think he has a huge cross to bear. There are some truly holy popes and some not.

Christ is king and his spirit whom he will.
 
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santaro75:
maybe he wasn’t just talking to the apostles here. sounds like he was talking to the regular folks hence the “take them to the church” in the verses preceeding it?
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I still don’t understand what you’re saying and I just went through the entire chapter. How do you define “the church”?
 
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JSmitty2005:
God doesn’t need anything. However, He may have established another way as part of His plan, which He can certainly do if He wishes.
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I would certainly agree. But I would add that God may have done so for the comfort and feeling of catharsis and closure that may come with confession to an actual person (in addition to the Grace), but perhaps he also has an “open door” policy for those who feel they can share directly with Him and have the same experience. I’m just guessing at this point.
 
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JSmitty2005:
I still don’t understand what you’re saying and I just went through the entire chapter. How do you define “the church”?
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If he was talking only to the apostles, why would he say bring them to the church?
 
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ReformedCatholic:
Just tell Him. He’s the one that absolve’s the sins. Are you saying God needs a middleman? 😃
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I say God wants a middleman. “Those sins you forgive, they are forgiven. Those you retain, they are retained”.

Notworthy
 
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NotWorthy:
I say God wants a middleman. “Those sins you forgive, they are forgiven. Those you retain, they are retained”.

Notworthy
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Who? only an ordained priest of the Roman Catholic Church? Or another Christian brother.
 
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JSmitty2005:
Not necessarily. Christ is indubitably the Head of the Church, but the Church is also His Body. In an attempt to sever the relationship between the two, you’ve essentially decapitated Christ.
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Sheesh, I don’t want to be the guy that goes down in history for that! Talk about eternal damnation.

Perhaps you’re right, but it remains a concern as I believe there are some people who actually do that without realizing it.

I wonder if He meant that the church was His Body, or that all of US (THOSE) as members of His church comprise His spiritual body?
 
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santaro75:
If he was talking only to the apostles, why would he say bring them to the church?
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You didn’t answer my question. What is the Church to you? How do you define it?
 
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santaro75:
Who? only an ordained priest of the Roman Catholic Church? Or another Christian brother.
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What gives you the impression that this authority was given to anyone other than the Apostles?
 
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NotWorthy:
I say God wants a middleman. “Those sins you forgive, they are forgiven. Those you retain, they are retained”.

Notworthy
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What does it mean by “retain?” Why would anyone “retain” someone’s sin? The whole NT is about forgiving. I don’t understand that.
 
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santaro75:
he never said the Roman Catholic Church. Peter had primacy amongst the apostles. He was guided and protectd by the holy spirit. The spirit was unleashed and the christian church was born.
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And the choir sings, “Amen”!!
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santaro75:
I believe a papacy that is needed to manage the church. I don’t think he is infallible or any holier than any one of us (call no other man father). There were many many popes who were not holy. If the all powerful spirit of God was inherent to that office, evil would not be possible out of that office in my opinion. I do respect him and think he has a huge cross to bear. There are some truly holy popes and some not.

Christ is king and his spirit whom he will.
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I don’t recall Christ saying the Pope would be holy. Didn’t He say to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan”? Didn’t He predict that there would be sinful leaders in the Church, “The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed… and birds would come roost in their branches”? Didn’t He pick Judas for an Apostle, knowing what would come of it?

Our Pope is not Holy because he is Pope. Our Pope is Holy only if he is Holy. Infallibility only prevent him from teaching faith and morals that are not in accordance with Christ’s Will.

Notworthy
 
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