Salvation through christ church affiliation

[John_Henry]

santaro75:

Where does the church say you have to agree with her on everything to get to heaven?

From the catechism, 1814:

Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith “man freely commits his entire self to God.” For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith “work through charity.”

And then from 1813:

The theological virtues are the foundation of Christian moral activity; they animate it and give it its special character. They inform and give life to all the moral virtues. They are infused by God into the souls of the faithful to make them capable of acting as his children and of meriting eternal life. They are the pledge of the presence and action of the Holy Spirit in the faculties of the human being. There are three theological virtues: faith, hope, and charity.77

The theological virtue of faith makes us capable of meriting eternal life. The theological virtue of faith includes believing all that Holy Church proposes for belief.

 

[santaro75]

Tonks40:

Santaro75 -

Rereading this thread, maybe you’re trying to find out if in the Catholic Church we need to follow doctrine or practices.

Doctrine is essential in knowing and acknowledging the Truths of God’s Revelation through His Son, Jesus Christ. These need to be followed and agreed on.

Practices are the things we do as Catholics so that the doctrines of the Church ring true in our lives. Saying a Rosary is a practice, not a doctrine (tho it does support our belief in Our Blessed Mother, the Divinity of Christ, intercessory prayer to the Communion of Saints, etc.) I know some people that for some reason don’t say the Rosary…but they don’t dispell the above doctrines as unnecessary for belief and their salvation.

Maybe someone can expound on these further for me…my words are lacking sometimes.

yes this helps. This is a large probably the larger part of it. BUT at the same time there are some beliefs that I dont disbelieve or believe but the more i reflected on them, they seemed unimportant to the gospel message anyway which was simple and clear.

 

[santaro75]

John_Henry:

False dichotomy #2: It is perfectly feasible to feed the hungry and believe in purgatory. Many people have achieved it in the past. Keep feeding the poor. That’s good. Now, submit to Holy Mother Church and believe all that is required for salvation.

What is required for salvation other than the things i listed before and beliefe in christ jesus?

 

[santaro75]

Strider:

And Jesus won’t send you to hell. Only you can do that.

Please explain to me what exactly about my approach would send someone to hell. what did i do what offends jesus so much that he would deny me heaven?

 

[John_Henry]

santaro75:

What is required for salvation other than the things i listed before and beliefe in christ jesus?

As mentioned two posts up, it is required that one believe all that the Church proposes for belief. You could start by believing what’s in the catechism.

 

[santaro75]

John_Henry:

As mentioned two posts up, it is required that one believe all that the Church proposes for belief. You could start by believing what’s in the catechism.

ok, so if i don’t believe in for example

-purgatory
-indulgences

I won’t go to heaven. Even though my belief in them doesn’t mean they aren’t true. And also they have nothing to do with the basic message of our saviour.

is this what you are saying?

 

[Strider]

santaro75:

Please explain to me what exactly about my approach would send someone to hell. what did i do what offends jesus so much that he would deny me heaven?

I didn’t say any particular thing you’ve written or asked would send you to hell. I am in no position to judge the state of your soul. I can attempt to correct mistaken or incomplete views you have, such as your declaring Jesus will send you to hell. You see, Jesus wills that every soul be welcomed into heaven. And you’ve done it again above when you say “…offends Jesus so much that he would deny me heaven?”
That view takes the responsibility from the individual, you, where it belongs, and puts it on Jesus, who will not prevent you from using your free will to destroy yourself.
Only the individual, by freely turning away from God, can destine himself to hell.
Don’t lay that one on Our Lord! It’s all you, or me, or each of us.

 

[santaro75]

Strider:

I didn’t say any particular thing you’ve written or asked would send you to hell. I am in no position to judge the state of your soul. I can attempt to correct mistaken or incomplete views you have, such as your declaring Jesus will send you to hell. You see, Jesus wills that every soul be welcomed into heaven. And you’ve done it again above when you say “…offends Jesus so much that he would deny me heaven?”
That view takes the responsibility from the individual, you, where it belongs, and puts it on Jesus, who will not prevent you from using your free will to destroy yourself.
Only the individual, by freely turning away from God, can destine himself to hell.
Don’t lay that one on Our Lord! It’s all you, or me, or each of us.

so is purgatory a required belief to go to heaven?

 

[santaro75]

Tsuzuki:

People like to blame the Church for all sorts of absurdities when it’s their own fault for believing them. You’re on the right track already. You don’t need any external validation for inner conviction. As you told me, just serve the Lord, and let everyone else play politics. God will recognize you as His own.

This is true. thnx

 

[santaro75]

---

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Strider:

I’m trying real hard, here, not to give a smart-alec reply. Let’s try a little education.
Jesus said this in Ceasarea Phillipi, where there is a huge rock formation. The quote doesn’t work well in Greek or English, but in Aramic, it’s a wonderful play on words. The point being that Peter is the solid rock foundation upon which Jesus will build his Church; the structure he leaves behind to teach and govern us in the Truth after he returns to the Father. Cf Mt. 6:24 - 27.
In the culture of first century Israel, the key to a city or a great house was a symbol of great authority. The king would give his prime minister the “master key,” to all of his possesions, thereby giving him all authority when the king is gone. Cf Isaiah 22:15ff.
So you can see how much metaphor and allegory Jesus packed into this little statement, and how much meaning it had for the Apostles. Oh, and “binding and loosing,” was a rabbinic phrase also conferring great authority.
The denigrating attitude must’ve been in the reading. It was not in the writing.

My misunderstanding.

To give the master key as giving all authority is an interesting point- “while the king is gone…”

But the King is back. He’s here. He’s ever-present and everywhere, yes?

Where two or more are gathered in My name?

This would imply that the “keys” are again in the hands of the King. This would imply that the supreme authority assumed by the Papacy is based upon a contradiction.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Strider:

I’ll do better than that. I’ll show you where the Pope says that Christ and the Church are inseparable.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=103468

“Therefore, there is no way to reconcile Christ’s intentions with the slogan that was fashionable a few years ago, ‘Christ yes, the Church no,’” he continued.

That’s just one little quote from the Wednesday Audience that’s linked above. Read it, then follow the next series of Wednesday audiences. JPII gave us Theology of the Body in two yers of Wednesday audiences. Benedict XVI will re-establish the Truth and necessity of the Catholic Church in the same way.
Questions? Ask the Pope.
I’m not trying to be antagonistic, here, but you seem to be trying to find a way to be “Catholic Lite,” and that just doesn’t work. When it comes to Dogma and Doctrine, it’s all or nothing. Christ IS the Catholic Church.
And Jesus won’t send you to hell. Only you can do that.

Christ may be the Catholic Church, but the Catholic Church is not Christ. The ocean may be a drop of water, but a drop of water is not the ocean.

The current belief about Christ being the church really implies a worship of the church rather than Christ Himself. I’ve heard of this called a form of idolatry- it was called “ecclesiolatry.”

I’m not saying that’s what you are doing, but I have encountered some that are.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

John_Henry:

As mentioned two posts up, it is required that one believe all that the Church proposes for belief. You could start by believing what’s in the catechism.

I would venture that more than 50% of Catholics do not fully believe or agree with some doctrine or teaching of the church, but continue to remain a member.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Tsuzuki:

People like to blame the Church for all sorts of absurdities when it’s their own fault for believing them. You’re on the right track already. You don’t need any external validation for inner conviction. As you told me, just serve the Lord, and let everyone else play politics. God will recognize you as His own.

This makes sense. Nice point.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Tsuzuki:

I would imagine it’s a required belief if you want to go to purgatory.

What I find as interesting is that the primary source cited for the existence of purgatory is half a sentence in Hebrews; yet if you read the second half of the sentence it could very well invalidate the need for a church or anyone else for the salvation and return to Christ.

 

[santaro75]

Tsuzuki:

I dunno. I personally believe in purgatory, though I don’t think that belief is necessary. It just makes sense to me that not everyone would be immediately prepared to meet God.

I agree also that purgatory or something like it is necessary. though the exact shape siz form or process will never be known by us. But like you said I dont’ think it makes a diff in my salvation whether i believe in it or not.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Tsuzuki:

I dunno. I personally believe in purgatory, though I don’t think that belief is necessary. It just makes sense to me that not everyone would be immediately prepared to meet God.

Don’t get me wrong, of the catholic beliefs, purgatory is one that makes a lot of sense. However, I think it’s a derivation of the eastern concept of karma.

 

[santaro75]

Can anyone tell me if Purgatory is a required belief to have salvation?

 

[BryPGuy89]

santaro75:

I guess the argument is whether it is important to believe in all the RCC teaches or whether you are ok just practicing the basics in following the word of Christ.

I go to mass, pray the mass, take the eucharist and try to live my life the way Christ said to the best i can. I think that fighting over religion is counter to Christs teachings and breeds hostility and loss of charity, which to me is a sure sign of the absence of Christ.

I think you do more for the kingdom of heaven by feeding a hungry person than by believing in purgatory. Christ is glorified more when you help someone in need than professing that the pope is infallible.

The truth is necessary to maintain true Christian teaching. Example, many protestan tfaiths support abortions and women’s rigt to choose and stuff, condemned in the Bible and by the RCC. It makes a difference especially orver time, like some denminations used to be similar in beleifs, but basically denied the pope, but as times changed and some things became exceptible to certain culture, some non Catholic groups began to except things, they lacked the truth and guidance of the Pope and Church of God. The little squabbling and what not, are not important, right, but what is truth is truth and other denominations can lead others astray if it is lacking that truth

 

[John_Henry]

santaro75:

Can anyone tell me if Purgatory is a required belief to have salvation?

Disbelieving in something that Holy Mother Church has revealed as being part of the deposit of faith is grave matter. Which is one of three requirements for mortal sin. Which is something that will keep one out of heaven. I will not judge your state of grace.