Salvation through christ church affiliation

[Strider]

ReformedCatholic:

Christ may be the Catholic Church, but the Catholic Church is not Christ. The ocean may be a drop of water, but a drop of water is not the ocean.

The current belief about Christ being the church really implies a worship of the church rather than Christ Himself. I’ve heard of this called a form of idolatry- it was called “ecclesiolatry.”

I’m not saying that’s what you are doing, but I have encountered some that are.

Did you read the link?
Have you read Acts 9:15? Jesus asks Pauo (Saul) why he’s persecuting him. Saul asks, “Who are you, Lord?” The Reply?
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecutring.”
We all know Paul was persecuting the Church.
The Church is the Body, Christ is the head of the body. This has been the constant teaching of the Cathlic Church from the beginning, since Christ identified himself so closely to the Church.
The whole point of this thread is that Santoro75 is seeking reassurance that it’s alright for him to be a Protestant. The Catholics are saying that’s what he already is and the Protestants are encouraging him.
He apparently doesn’t want to believe all that is necessary for one to believe to be a Catholic. Therefore, if he’s a Chirstian, he’s a Protestant Christian.
That’s how I see it.

 

[santaro75]

John_Henry:

Disbelieving in something that Holy Mother Church has revealed as being part of the deposit of faith is grave matter. Which is one of three requirements for mortal sin. Which is something that will keep one out of heaven. I will not judge your state of grace.

That is what I don’t get here. Why does the church get so offended if you don’t believe something she says to the point where she says it is mortal sin, which means you are not in grace which means if you die you will go to hell.

DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE HOW INSANE THIS IS?

What does purgatory have to do with the price of rice in china as far as salvation is concerned. Salvation is the message of christ.

The fact that you live a life of charity, loving christ, praying daily, going to mass, doing the will of the father but don’t know if you believe in purgatory or not, mother church does not care if you fed the poor and clothed the naked and gave your life to God. (which are the things Jesus said to do). You are going to hell.

Find me one priest that preaches this on here. can a priest please back this up!

DUDE, C’mon!!!

 

[DustinsDad]

santaro75:

ok, so if i don’t believe in for example

-purgatory
-indulgences

I won’t go to heaven. Even though my belief in them doesn’t mean they aren’t true. And also they have nothing to do with the basic message of our saviour.

is this what you are saying?

If you reject something that you know the Church holds as binding doctrine…then you’re rejecting the Church. Reject the Church and you reject Christ.

(Luke 10:16) “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

(Matthew 18:17-18) If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(John 12:48-49) “He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak.”

Peace

DustinsDad

 

[John_Henry]

santaro75:

Why does the church get so offended if you don’t believe something she says to the point where she says it is mortal sin, which means you are not in grace which means if you die you will go to hell.

You will note I said it was grave matter, not a mortal sin. Whether it’s mortal is between you and God. And the Church is not the least bit offended. She grieves for those who will not listen to all she has to say.

Salvation is the message of christ.

And the message of Christ includes, “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Find me one priest that preaches this on here. can a priest please back this up!

I know Fr. Corapi says it. But look again at post #41. THE CATECHISM SAYS IT. Instead of trying to find the loophole that doesn’t exist, start looking into the reasons Holy Mother Church teaches the reality of purgatory (of all the teachings!).

 

[Strider]

santaro75:

That is what I don’t get here. Why does the church get so offended if you don’t believe something she says to the point where she says it is mortal sin, which means you are not in grace which means if you die you will go to hell.

DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE HOW INSANE THIS IS?

What does purgatory have to do with the price of rice in china as far as salvation is concerned. Salvation is the message of christ.

The fact that you live a life of charity, loving christ, praying daily, going to mass, doing the will of the father but don’t know if you believe in purgatory or not, mother church does not care if you fed the poor and clothed the naked and gave your life to God. (which are the things Jesus said to do). You are going to hell.

Find me one priest that preaches this on here. can a priest please back this up!

DUDE, C’mon!!!

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH #1327
Because this bread and wine have been made Eucharist (“eucharisted,” according to an ancient expression), “we call this food Eucharist, and no one may take part in it unless he believes what we teach is true, has received baptism for the forgiveness of sins and new birth, and lives in keeping with what Christ taught.”
(Emphasis mine)
The Church teaches, in the areas of faith and morals, what Christ taught. By receiving the Eucharist, we are assenting to all teachings of the Church, including the Primacy of Peter, purgatory, seven sacraments, etc. (see the Catechism).
Yes, Jesus taught that we must feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty. He also taught us, “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.” Mt. 5:29, 30
Of course he was not speaking literally, here (I know that because the Church has the authority to interpret Scripture), but he did teach many hard truths. Nobody ever quotes those. They like the warm, fuzzy Jesus, who really didn’t exist. Warm, fuzzy men are not crucified.
Before you accuse me of judging you or damning you to hell, sorry, but I don’t have the authority. As I said above, only you can do that, and I wouldn’t even attempt to know the condition of your soul. I can only take care of mine in the best way I can.
I’m simply quoting for you from the most authoritative source we have, what the Church requires in certain areas. You are perfectly free to read the Catechism for yourself, just as you are free to accept or reject it.
But if you choose to reject it, you, by your own choice, are not a Catholic. Fight it all you want, use all the upper case and exclamation points you please, but it changes nothing; it’s that simple.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

santaro75:

That is what I don’t get here. Why does the church get so offended if you don’t believe something she says to the point where she says it is mortal sin, which means you are not in grace which means if you die you will go to hell.

DOES ANYONE ELSE SEE HOW INSANE THIS IS?

What does purgatory have to do with the price of rice in china as far as salvation is concerned. Salvation is the message of christ.

The fact that you live a life of charity, loving christ, praying daily, going to mass, doing the will of the father but don’t know if you believe in purgatory or not, mother church does not care if you fed the poor and clothed the naked and gave your life to God. (which are the things Jesus said to do). You are going to hell.

Find me one priest that preaches this on here. can a priest please back this up!

DUDE, C’mon!!!

LOL, welcome to my world. I’ve been asking the same thing for decades and still haven’t gotten any better answer than “because we say so” (paraphrase). One thing that I’ve found consistent is that the church’s teachings make one wholly dependent upon the church for salvation. This is ultimately very self-serving and provides for a system of power, control, and wealth that makes us cynics wonder.

I actually think this is contrary to Christ’s teachings, personally, and to the spirit of his message. I think that Christ gave us the church as a vehicle to salvation and to help us lead a Christian life, but I also believe he gave us the option of walking, jogging, and sprinting the way and discovering our own unique path in living a Christian life. This is contrary to what most here believe, though.

 

[santaro75]

Strider:

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH #1327
Because this bread and wine have been made Eucharist (“eucharisted,” according to an ancient expression), “we call this food Eucharist, and no one may take part in it unless he believes what we teach is true, has received baptism for the forgiveness of sins and new birth, and lives in keeping with what Christ taught.”
(Emphasis mine)
The Church teaches, in the areas of faith and morals, what Christ taught. By receiving the Eucharist, we are assenting to all teachings of the Church, including the Primacy of Peter, purgatory, seven sacraments, etc. (see the Catechism).
Yes, Jesus taught that we must feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give drink to the thirsty. He also taught us, “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.” Mt. 5:29, 30
Of course he was not speaking literally, here (I know that because the Church has the authority to interpret Scripture), but he did teach many hard truths. Nobody ever quotes those. They like the warm, fuzzy Jesus, who really didn’t exist. Warm, fuzzy men are not crucified.
Before you accuse me of judging you or damning you to hell, sorry, but I don’t have the authority. As I said above, only you can do that, and I wouldn’t even attempt to know the condition of your soul. I can only take care of mine in the best way I can.
I’m simply quoting for you from the most authoritative source we have, what the Church requires in certain areas. You are perfectly free to read the Catechism for yourself, just as you are free to accept or reject it.
But if you choose to reject it, you, by your own choice, are not a Catholic. Fight it all you want, use all the upper case and exclamation points you please, but it changes nothing; it’s that simple.

I am a Christian that goes to the holy mass and partakes in the body and blood the way Christ told us too.

What I know in my heart and what you throw your books at are two differant things I guess.

And I do discern the body and blood. The rest are rules made by man.

 

[santaro75]

ReformedCatholic:

LOL, welcome to my world. I’ve been asking the same thing for decades and still haven’t gotten any better answer than “because we say so” (paraphrase). One thing that I’ve found consistent is that the church’s teachings make one wholly dependent upon the church for salvation. This is ultimately very self-serving and provides for a system of power, control, and wealth that makes us cynics wonder.

I actually think this is contrary to Christ’s teachings, personally, and to the spirit of his message. I think that Christ gave us the church as a vehicle to salvation and to help us lead a Christian life, but I also believe he gave us the option of walking, jogging, and sprinting the way and discovering our own unique path in living a Christian life. This is contrary to what most here believe, though.

It is contrary and so Blatantly obvious. Christs message was so simple and liberating.

What Christ meant by call no other Father means that the only authority over you is God! He is your only boss. And his instructions are in the Gospel.

The church is there to help teach you and guide you. NOT to mandate anything with the threat of witholding salvation. As if it was theirs to give in the first place. HA HA. I am finally starting to see clearly.

 

[Tonks40]

ReformedCatholic:

I actually think this is contrary to Christ’s teachings, personally, and to the spirit of his message. I think that Christ gave us the church as a vehicle to salvation and to help us lead a Christian life, but I also believe he gave us the option of walking, jogging, and sprinting the way and discovering our own unique path in living a Christian life. This is contrary to what most here believe, though.

Speaking as a cradle, faithful, born-again Catholic, to me Christ message IS really that simple. But what the Church teaches is contrary to Christ’s teachings??? I really don’t see how, especially when everything, and I do mean EVERYTHING that Holy Mother Church teaches points to Christ - in every aspect of prayer, of practice, doctrine, EVERYTHING!!

To pick and choose certain things and not see it in the context of true teaching is like putting blinders on a horse’s eyes!!

If I don’t say a Rosary one day, or pray for the souls in purgatory on another day, do I feel that my salvation is in danger? Absolutely not! The focus in the Catholic Church is on Christ, not on power, not on prestige or postures of judgement. Pull yourself back and really, truly try and see the whole picture.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

Tonks40:

Speaking as a cradle, faithful, born-again Catholic, to me Christ message IS really that simple. But what the Church teaches is contrary to Christ’s teachings??? I really don’t see how, especially when everything, and I do mean EVERYTHING that Holy Mother Church teaches points to Christ - in every aspect of prayer, of practice, doctrine, EVERYTHING!!

To pick and choose certain things and not see it in the context of true teaching is like putting blinders on a horse’s eyes!!

If I don’t say a Rosary one day, or pray for the souls in purgatory on another day, do I feel that my salvation is in danger? Absolutely not! The focus in the Catholic Church is on Christ, not on power, not on prestige or postures of judgement. Pull yourself back and really, truly try and see the whole picture.

WARNING - CYNIC’S VIEW

Yes, it points to Christ to a degree- and then the rest of the time it points to Christ- according to them, imposing rules and doctrines that it decided were important or necessary to salvation that establish a dependency, system of control, and a power structure unlike any other on Earth.

But the man who lives a perfect Christian life for 80 years and then decides one Sunday to miss Mass to help abused children or feed the poor then dies will go straight to hell according to the church. This teaching is contrary to Christ’s message.

“Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto Me…” Would you go to hell for helping and serving God that Sunday rather than going to Mass? That’s strange reasoning if you ask me.

 

[John_Henry]

ReformedCatholic:

I actually think this is contrary to Christ’s teachings, personally, and to the spirit of his message. I think that Christ gave us the church as a vehicle to salvation and to help us lead a Christian life, but I also believe he gave us the option of walking, jogging, and sprinting the way and discovering our own unique path in living a Christian life. This is contrary to what most here believe, though.

Wrong. It’s called the Church’s teaching on vocation. We all have our unique call and path in living out the Christian life. But if it is to be a Catholic life, then the person must believe what Catholics believe. A straightforward concept. The saints are perfect examples…so diverse, yet Catholic.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

santaro75:

It is contrary and so Blatantly obvious. Christs message was so simple and liberating.

What Christ meant by call no other Father means that the only authority over you is God! He is your only boss. And his instructions are in the Gospel.

The church is there to help teach you and guide you. NOT to mandate anything with the threat of witholding salvation. As if it was theirs to give in the first place. HA HA. I am finally starting to see clearly.

I agree. And I also agree that some of the church’s teachings do come across as “threats” which results as spritual extortion to me. But it works for a lot of people and that’s great. Just not for me. I don’t believe in blind faith in anyone’s doctrine or teaching in the face of reasoned insight that I believe is divinely inspired in itself.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

John_Henry:

Wrong. It’s called the Church’s teaching on vocation. We all have our unique call and path in living out the Christian life. But if it is to be a Catholic life, then the person must believe what Catholics believe. A straightforward concept. The saints are perfect examples…so diverse, yet Catholic.

That is again only according to the church’s own teaching which is again equivalent to “because we said so” or “because we said we said so.” But I certainly won’t argue with the requirements of being Catholic, just with those necessary for salvation and going to heaven- which I do not believe has any direct correlation with being Catholic or not, if one is indeed Christian.

 

[LilyM]

ReformedCatholic:

But the man who lives a perfect Christian life for 80 years and then decides one Sunday to miss Mass to help abused children or feed the poor then dies will go straight to hell according to the church. This teaching is contrary to Christ’s message.

“Whatsoever you do to the least of my brothers, that you do unto Me…” Would you go to hell for helping and serving God that Sunday rather than going to Mass? That’s strange reasoning if you ask me.

Wrong wrong wrong - if you miss Mass because you’re performing an urgent work of mercy I doubt anyone would have a problem with it. However, even for Jesus himself there was urgent and non-urgent work. After all, didn’t he say ‘the poor you will always have with you?’

Remember how he welcomed the woman who anointed his feet with expensive perfume to do him honour instead of spending the money on the poor? And how he praised Mary for staying at his feet and listening to him instead of running about doing ‘many things’ like Martha?

Since we Catholics believe that Jesus is really present in a unique way in the Eucharist, when we make attendance at Mass mandatory we show ourselves to be aware of the ‘one thing which is needful’ (that is, spending time in the presence of the Lord) in the same way as Mary was.

If I were to miss Mass for non-urgent reasons I’m sure I would hear Jesus saying, as he did to the apostles in Gethsemane ‘could you not stay with me even one hour?’ And then there’s the little matter of the commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy. Sunday being our holy day the least we can do is spend one hour of it in God’s house.

 

[Scoobyshme]

Keep in mind that there are two things required of us with regard to faith.

Orthodoxy - right belief. We must believe all that Jesus taught, which means ALL that the Church He founded for the purpose of teaching.

Orthopraxis - right action. We must do all that Jesus commanded of us, which we know through His Church, which He founded for that purpose.

It is a mistake to try to pit Ortodoxy against Orthopraxis. This would result in a false dichotemy, a false “either/or” that doesn’t exist. They are not at odds with one another. They are complimentary. Liberation theology, which the Church rejects, tries to place Orthopraxis OVER Orthdoxy. This is an erroneous approach to the faith.

We are called to know God. We should know God in order to truly love God. We should love God in order to truly serve God. You see, we cannot serve God if we do not truly love God. We cannot love God if we do not truly know God.

 

[santaro75]

The catholic rules are so complex you need a catholic lawyer in catholic court to defend your case before you go to catholic heaven. How funny and absurd.

 

[santaro75]

LilyM:

Wrong wrong wrong - if you miss Mass because you’re performing an urgent work of mercy I doubt anyone would have a problem with it. However, even for Jesus himself there was urgent and non-urgent work. After all, didn’t he say ‘the poor you will always have with you?’

Remember how he welcomed the woman who anointed his feet with expensive perfume to do him honour instead of spending the money on the poor? And how he praised Mary for staying at his feet and listening to him instead of running about doing ‘many things’ like Martha?

Since we Catholics believe that Jesus is really present in a unique way in the Eucharist, when we make attendance at Mass mandatory we show ourselves to be aware of the ‘one thing which is needful’ (that is, spending time in the presence of the Lord) in the same way as Mary was.

If I were to miss Mass for non-urgent reasons I’m sure I would hear Jesus saying, as he did to the apostles in Gethsemane ‘could you not stay with me even one hour?’ And then there’s the little matter of the commandment to keep the Sabbath day holy. Sunday being our holy day the least we can do is spend one hour of it in God’s house.

What is not holy about charity? That is the highest form of praise and obedience to God. For one it is very well likely it is something that you personally don’t want to do, but are doing for God out of love and obedience to him.

Mass for me is where i gain strength and nourishment. I must have it. It is a must to walk the walk. But NOT EVER in a legalistic way. I am 100 percent sure that it is not intended like a human law such as paying taxes or something.

 

[Scoobyshme]

Santary75, the Church teaches us that God never expects anything of us that of which we are not capable.

There is such a thing as invincible ignorance, by which you will not be held accountable for that which you could not know. Simple minded people of low intelligence, for example, will not be held to the same standard as those who have been given the gift of high intelligence.

On the other hand, there is also such a thing as culpable ignorance, by which you chose, as an act of your will, not to know. So, for those folks who have been given the gift of intelligence, but choose to spend their time learning worldly matter to the exclusion of learning Christ’s truths, they will be held culpable. So many, especially in Western affluent countries like ours, have bachelor’s, master’s, and PhD’s in worldly things, coupled with a 2nd or 3rd grade education in their faith. What do you suppose that says about their priorities? Do you think they have God as their top priority or do you think things of the world and worldliness are their top priorities. The answer should be clear.

From whom much is given, much will be expected.

 

[LilyM]

santaro75:

What is not holy about charity? That is the highest form of praise and obedience to God.

This is exactly what Judas said when the ointment was poured on Jesus’ feet - ‘she should have sold it instead and given the money to the poor’ He thought charity was the most important thing - he was mistaken and so are you. The important thing is to give honour to God - God himself wants us simply to BE with him in Church, for that one hour a week that he has mandated - that is the highest honour, because Church is where he is most strongly present.

santaro75:

Mass for me is where i gain strength and nourishment. I must have it. It is a must to walk the walk. But NOT EVER in a legalistic way. I am 100 percent sure that it is not intended like a human law such as paying taxes or something.

It’s higher than human law, it’s divine law - ‘keep the Sabbath day holy’. Hopefully we are all doing charity and otherwise ‘walking hte walk’ every day, or at least as often as we can. If you don’t worship on Sunday there is nothing different about it, nothing special, nothing about it is ‘set apart’ uniquely for God. It’s more than paying taxes, it is showing our gratitude to God by doing something for him that benefits and pleases Him alone, and doesn’t add anything or provide any benefit either for ourselves or any other earthly (inferior) creature.

 

[ReformedCatholic]

LilyM:

This is exactly what Judas said when the ointment was poured on Jesus’ feet - ‘she should have sold it instead and given the money to the poor’ He thought charity was the most important thing - he was mistaken and so are you. The important thing is to give honour to God - God himself wants us simply to BE with him in Church, for that one hour a week that he has mandated - that is the highest honour, because Church is where he is most strongly present.

It’s higher than human law, it’s divine law - ‘keep the Sabbath day holy’. Hopefully we are all doing charity and otherwise ‘walking hte walk’ every day, or at least as often as we can. If you don’t worship on Sunday there is nothing different about it, nothing special, nothing about it is ‘set apart’ uniquely for God. It’s more than paying taxes, it is showing our gratitude to God by doing something for him that benefits and pleases Him alone, and doesn’t add anything or provide any benefit either for ourselves or any other earthly (inferior) creature.

In that case He shouldn’t mind if I do my good works on the Sabbath in His honor and sit with Him on Wednesday or another day during the week. Nor should he mind where I sit with Him, in an Episcopal, Baptist, or Methodist church, etc, since he is omnipresent and eternal- everywhere and not subject to the bounds of time.