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santaro75
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you need to know the secret signal. guessing by the fact that you don’t know about it, you must not be part of the church.
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santaro75
Guest
but, the church you go to, or should i say the family you join, is up to you.
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santaro75
Guest
can you translate? to english?
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JSmitty2005
Guest
I’m glad that you recognize that Peter had primacy among the apostles and that he as well as the others were guided and by the Holy Spirit. What makes you think that this protection ended? Do you not think that God would provide protection of the truth like He promised us? He said that His Church would be led into ALL truth for ALL of eternity. Even though the name “Roman Catholic Church” is not found in the Bible doesn’t necessarily mean that it is not the Church of the Bible. The words Trinity and Sacrament and Incarnation are not used in the Bible, but almost all Christians hold these beliefs. Also, I personally hate it when “Roman” is added to the name of the Church. The Church has always referred to herself simply as the Catholic Church. Roman was tacked on by the English when Henry VIII went into heresy because the Anglicans wanted to maintain the name of “Catholic.” Furthermore, to call the Church under the pope “Roman” is to imply a limitation to the Church’s universality and an exclusion of the other 21 rites of the Church. Finally, I will not address the whole, “call no man ‘father’” thing until you answer the question of whether or not God can sin.
Our Lord said that His Church would be lead into ALL truth which necessitates infallibility. BTW, the pope isn’t impeccable. He’s a sinner and doesn’t claim to be holier than anyone else, even though many of them are. In fact, the pope is so humble that he goes to Confession weekly!
There were certainly unholy popes, but that’s actually an argument for the Church’s infallibility because despite the fact that there were evil popes, NOT ONE of them changed Church teaching. In fact, the bad ones didn’t do much teaching at all. They were usually off doing political things or sleeping with lots of women. This does not mean that because someone is evil that the office is therefore evil. That’s like saying that because some Christians are evil that Christianity is evil. There have always been sinners in the Church from day 1. Jesus chose Judas as one of the twelve and He also warned us about “weeds.” Bad people are to be expected in Christ’s True Church.
:yup:
Catholics completely agree with this. In fact, we have a feast day for Christ the King on the last Sunday of the Season after Pentecost, which is the Sunday before Advent Sunday.
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JSmitty2005
Guest
Yes, however, the priest will retain someone’s sins if the individual obviously has no intention of amending their ways. In order for confession to be efficacious, one must have true contrition and the intent to stop committing the sins they’re going to confess. When Catholics go to confession it’s not just like we read off a laundry list of sins and that’s it. The priest converses with us and counsels us, so he will have a pretty good idea of the sins you’re struggling with.
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NotWorthy
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Please stick to the thread!
Notworthy
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JSmitty2005
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Are you suggesting that doctrine is unimportant?
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JSmitty2005
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It’s an attack on the man. The fact that a person is adorned with ornate clothing or jewels doesn’t logically necessitate that he is not a man of God.
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JSmitty2005
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Surely you jest.
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JSmitty2005
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You still didn’t answer the question of whether or not the Church is an invisble or visible body of believers.
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NotWorthy
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We call him “His Holiness” and “Holy Father” out of respect. Among his many titles is “Servant of the Servants of God”. I prefer “Il Papa”.
Notworthy
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santaro75
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You know whats funny is that Christians disagree on so many things. to the point where they judge eachother and go as far as to say that salvation is not possible with _______beliefs.
But I dont’ think you will find a single christian that disagrees with charity and love.that is because it charity and love are truth-undeniable
But I dont’ think you will find a single christian that disagrees with charity and love.that is because it charity and love are truth-undeniable
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JSmitty2005
Guest
Sorry, but I forgot to inform you of my biblical citations:
1 Tim. 3:15
John 14:6
1 Cor. 3:11
Eph. 2:20
Matt. 16:18
Matt. 18:17
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santaro75
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The church is visible. you can see it all around. God can not sin.
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santaro75
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I know, but a guy after christs heart would plainly see that the king of kings was born in barn like a beggar and never really chose to rise above that in society. he was making a point. But the Catholic hierarchy has the higher ups living pretty richly like earthly kings do. Not saying it is wrong to have money and nice things but I think that Jesus did not represent himself that way.
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santaro75
Guest
not too important. Charity…muy importanteAre you suggesting that doctrine is unimportant?
Think of a childs faith in God. Observe one who has true faith. How important is doctrine to them? yet we must have faith like one of them.
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JSmitty2005
Guest
I understand your desire to have everyone get along, but doctrine is extremely important. Scripture makes this very clear. Go here:
columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/doctrine.html
And also see my blog:
blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=27422461&blogID=65270145&Mytoken=A403B88F-114C-BF9E-1A9214EAD059683B11728456
Next, please consider these verses:
“We instruct you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ,to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us.” (2 Thess. 3:6)
“After a first and second warning, break off contact with a heretic, realizing that such a person is perverted and sinful and stands self-condemned.” (TItus 3:10-11)
“Do not be yoked with those who are different, with unbelievers. For what partnership do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? What accord has Christ with Beliar? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?” (2 Cor. 6:14-15)
“Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting.” (2 John:9-10)
“But as for you, teach what befits sound doctrine.” (Titus 2:1)
“He must hold firm to the sure word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to confute those who contradict it.” (Titus 1:9)
“As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine.” (1 Tim. 1:3)
“I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who create dissensions and obstacles, in opposition to the teaching that you learned; avoid them. For such people do not serve our Lord Christ but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the innocent.” (Romans 16:17-18)
“There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.” (2 Pet. 2:1)
“In them (Paul’s epistles) there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.” (2 Pet. 3:16-17)
It doesn’t seem like the biblical Church tolerated anything contrary to sound doctrine, so why should we? I’ll leave you with a quote of G.K. Chesterton’s:
“There is nothing so stupendously stupid as the common saying, ‘Religion can never depend on minute disputes about doctrine.’ It is like saying that life can never depend on minute disputes about medicine.”
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JSmitty2005
Guest
I’m glad that you’ll admit that the Church is visible because most Protestants won’t. It has to be visible. Otherwise, how would you find it to take your brother to it? Also, if the Church weren’t visible, then it wouldn’t really be the light of the world of which all nations are disciples as Christ intended. Finally, I’ve never heard of something invisible having a foundation like we hear of the Church in Eph. 2:20. The Apostles are in charge of the Church. To find the Church we must look no further than them and their successors. To make my point clear, we have to remind ourselves of what you said earlier:
“If he was talking only to the apostles, why would he say bring them to the church?”
He said that because the apostles are the Church’s authoritative leadership! He was teaching them how to administrate His Church. He was telling them that once He was gone that people should come to the Apostles with their disputes.
Okay, now that you’ve admitted that God, by His very nature, cannot sin, let us consider this idea of “call no man ‘father.’” In Luke 16, Jesus speaks of “father Abraham.” Jesus is God and cannot sin, therefore, calling Abraham (a man) “father” is not a sin. If this is the case, then what did He mean when He said it? I believe that He was reiterating the commandment not to have other gods. Furthermore, the name Abram means “exalted father”; Abraham means “*father * of a multitude.”
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JSmitty2005
Guest
Okay, so are you saying that we need not believe that Jesus is God? How about the doctrine of the virginal birth? What about the Trinity? How about the fact that Jesus is the only way of salvation? Can we reject these things and still call ourselves a Christian? No, I don’t think. Are these all Christian doctrines? Yes, they are. I’d say that doctrine is *pretty * important. Didn’t Jesus say, in the great commision, that the Apostles were to preach ALL that he had commanded (cf. Matthew 28:20)? If even one Christian truth can be rejected, then the authority of Christianity as a true religion is necessarily compromised.
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santaro75
Guest
What I am saying is that fighting over doctrine is pointless. Nevermind.
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