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Superstar905
Guest
LOL, spokenword is a closet Catholic playing devils advocate, I’m sure of it!
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Flopfoot
Guest
No, because his profile says that he is non-denominational. If he really was Catholic then that would be a lie.
If he was a Catholic who wanted to play devil’s advocate, he would have written ‘Christian’ there, because that would be true, but we would all assume that it meant he was not Catholic. (Same effect, without lying).
If he was a Catholic who wanted to play devil’s advocate, he would have written ‘Christian’ there, because that would be true, but we would all assume that it meant he was not Catholic. (Same effect, without lying).
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NotWorthy
Guest
Uhhhhhh, Flopfoot? read over posts 18-21. You might detect some admittedly weak attempts at humor. You know how we American’s can be, eh?
Notworthy
Notworthy
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Flopfoot
Guest
Yea but it’s kind of hard to understand… I can’t even tell if someone is making fun of the Holy Spirit or not… if you’re going to put down spokenword’s post, you could at least try to make the humor easier to understand so that we can laugh at him… or is he in on the joke too? I don’t even know that. )-: I was never good with these word things.
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Superstar905
Guest
lol, Flopfoot, I was kidding…Us Canadians even get it!! 
M
MariaG
Guest
So what exactly in the teaching of the Catholic Church about salvation contradicts Scripture?
God Bless,
Maria
God Bless,
Maria
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Superstar905
Guest
There is no adequate reponse to this question, because an answer does not exist.
M
MariaG
Guest
For those who believe the official teachings of the Catholic Church as posted by Orionthehunter post #8 on salvation contradict Scripture, which Scripture does it contradict?
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SPOKENWORD
Guest
I believe in OCAC. Once catholic always catholic.LOL, spokenword is a closet Catholic playing devils advocate, I’m sure of it!
God Bless
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Looks like it’s time for the OP to start another thread; Orion, Maria et. al have shown that there there is absolutely no contradiction in the teachings of salvation as shown in the Bible and as taught in the Catholic faith.
Next question?
Next question?
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quasimodo
Guest
If two Christians have a dispute over the doctrine of salvation, I suggets they consult the bulwark and ground of truth, the pillar and foundation of truth. Does everybody agree?
There are a plethora of Protestant Sola Scriptura ideas about the topic of salvation. Which one does our questioner profess? Luthern? Calvinist? Anglican? Anabaptist? JW? SDA? Pentecostal? Baptist? Free will Baptist? Primitive Baptist? Reverend LeRoy’s Fifth Street Temple of the Living God and BBQ? There are a lot of different ideas on salvation based on “scripture alone” in this small sample.
1Tim 3:15
There are a plethora of Protestant Sola Scriptura ideas about the topic of salvation. Which one does our questioner profess? Luthern? Calvinist? Anglican? Anabaptist? JW? SDA? Pentecostal? Baptist? Free will Baptist? Primitive Baptist? Reverend LeRoy’s Fifth Street Temple of the Living God and BBQ? There are a lot of different ideas on salvation based on “scripture alone” in this small sample.
1Tim 3:15
A
Aaron_I
Guest
And yet none of them bother to read James 2.
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quasimodo
Guest
Aaron I.:
true, very true
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MariaG
Guest
Tantum ergo:
I am sure there will be some rebuttal
God Bless,
Maria
Now, now. Give 'em time. ChristianWAB was waiting to present their case until I had responded to their post. The OP has not been back since I found this thread.
I am sure there will be some rebuttal
God Bless,
Maria
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PraRFLEsEkHm
Guest
Hi,
I omitted the obvious verses here - but can furnish them if anyone needs them:
Using the reason and logic that the Catholic Church honors so much: does it make sense for God - who sent His only Son into this world to suffer and die for us - to leave us with only part of an inerrant, infallible knowledge of salvation in writing, and leave the rest of what we need to know for salvation in the form of an errant, fallible oral tradition? To allow the entire plan of salvation for the whole world to rest, intentionally, upon the feeble words and contrariness of man through an oral tradition? God alone is perfect, and therefore in His perfection He would not have Authored that something as priceless as the spilling of Christ’s own blood would depend upon reliable oral transmission and retention of tradition by unreliable, eminently fallible, wholly sinful human beings (See Romans 1:20-32). He is not the Author of confusion, we are; as we are all sold as slaves into sin (Ro 7:14). God does not want any to perish (2 Pet 3:19) so therefore what is needed for salvation must be contained in one place, complete, in His own Words and therefore inerrant, for any and all to find.
His Holy written Word is complete, in place to guide us into salvation through truth – which was the purpose of the Holy Spirit for the Apostles: to guide them into all truth, for all of us, and then request to write that truth down, through them, thereby working out their salvation as well as providing the means for our own. We have a God who loves us beyond our imagination to comprehend, but he is also a Just God. The written word leaves no excuses (John 15:22 ASV): “If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no excuse for their sin.”, and no doubt about what is needed to be saved, nor why that salvation is needed. What we do with that word, and that sacrifice then, rests entirely on our own individual heads: Romans 14:12 (ASV): “So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God.” We are then wholly responsible for our own individual salvation, which salvation is found in the word of God as it is plainly written; now that the promise of that salvation has become a reality through the resurrection of Jesus Christ by God Almighty. There is no other name {Human or institution} under heaven by which men may be saved. (Acts 4:12 ASV) “And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved.” Nowhere else is the truth to be found, as the Word incarnate is still with us, through the written word and the indwelling Holy Spirit – who is the interpreter, as He was the author of that word - and that word is complete, finished. “It Is Finished.” There is nowhere else to turn but scripture for the knowledge in truth of salvation. We need not fear the truth for John says in 8:32, 36 (YLT): “and the truth shall make you free.’ if then the son may make you free, in reality ye shall be free.”
We are not perfect, obviously – or there would have been no need of Christ’s sacrifice; and with our manifest imperfections comes tampering, ego, misinterpretation (intentional or accidental), abuse of authority, or any one of a multitude of other sinful temptations to pervert the word of God – which is abundantly clear in our world today, as well as in history, which is why Isaiah says in 8:20 (ASV): “To the law and to the testimony! if they speak not according to this word, surely there is no morning for them.” Having all the controversy that we do about the written word, one can imagine that an oral tradition would soon be lost in the morass which is our world; which, as it happens, it has apparently. But, the truth in and of the written word of God is promised to stand forever: (Matthew 24:35 ASV) “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” The word of God is always there for us, ready and able to defend itself against every heresy with the plain truth of the word of God; it is therefore fully and completely furnished with everything needed for every good work in our salvation, as it states in 2 Timothy 3:17. What the word of God does not say is that everything there is to know is contained therein or even that everything that happened during the life of Christ on earth has been written down, nor am I claiming this. In fact the word states exactly the opposite (John 21:25, concerning Christ). Here we might take a moment to point out that John is not making a blanket statement here, he is referring to the vastness of Christ’s works on earth – not His teaching, and is also speaking of what he himself has transferred – rather than the completeness of scripture.
I omitted the obvious verses here - but can furnish them if anyone needs them:
Using the reason and logic that the Catholic Church honors so much: does it make sense for God - who sent His only Son into this world to suffer and die for us - to leave us with only part of an inerrant, infallible knowledge of salvation in writing, and leave the rest of what we need to know for salvation in the form of an errant, fallible oral tradition? To allow the entire plan of salvation for the whole world to rest, intentionally, upon the feeble words and contrariness of man through an oral tradition? God alone is perfect, and therefore in His perfection He would not have Authored that something as priceless as the spilling of Christ’s own blood would depend upon reliable oral transmission and retention of tradition by unreliable, eminently fallible, wholly sinful human beings (See Romans 1:20-32). He is not the Author of confusion, we are; as we are all sold as slaves into sin (Ro 7:14). God does not want any to perish (2 Pet 3:19) so therefore what is needed for salvation must be contained in one place, complete, in His own Words and therefore inerrant, for any and all to find.
His Holy written Word is complete, in place to guide us into salvation through truth – which was the purpose of the Holy Spirit for the Apostles: to guide them into all truth, for all of us, and then request to write that truth down, through them, thereby working out their salvation as well as providing the means for our own. We have a God who loves us beyond our imagination to comprehend, but he is also a Just God. The written word leaves no excuses (John 15:22 ASV): “If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no excuse for their sin.”, and no doubt about what is needed to be saved, nor why that salvation is needed. What we do with that word, and that sacrifice then, rests entirely on our own individual heads: Romans 14:12 (ASV): “So then each one of us shall give account of himself to God.” We are then wholly responsible for our own individual salvation, which salvation is found in the word of God as it is plainly written; now that the promise of that salvation has become a reality through the resurrection of Jesus Christ by God Almighty. There is no other name {Human or institution} under heaven by which men may be saved. (Acts 4:12 ASV) “And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved.” Nowhere else is the truth to be found, as the Word incarnate is still with us, through the written word and the indwelling Holy Spirit – who is the interpreter, as He was the author of that word - and that word is complete, finished. “It Is Finished.” There is nowhere else to turn but scripture for the knowledge in truth of salvation. We need not fear the truth for John says in 8:32, 36 (YLT): “and the truth shall make you free.’ if then the son may make you free, in reality ye shall be free.”
We are not perfect, obviously – or there would have been no need of Christ’s sacrifice; and with our manifest imperfections comes tampering, ego, misinterpretation (intentional or accidental), abuse of authority, or any one of a multitude of other sinful temptations to pervert the word of God – which is abundantly clear in our world today, as well as in history, which is why Isaiah says in 8:20 (ASV): “To the law and to the testimony! if they speak not according to this word, surely there is no morning for them.” Having all the controversy that we do about the written word, one can imagine that an oral tradition would soon be lost in the morass which is our world; which, as it happens, it has apparently. But, the truth in and of the written word of God is promised to stand forever: (Matthew 24:35 ASV) “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” The word of God is always there for us, ready and able to defend itself against every heresy with the plain truth of the word of God; it is therefore fully and completely furnished with everything needed for every good work in our salvation, as it states in 2 Timothy 3:17. What the word of God does not say is that everything there is to know is contained therein or even that everything that happened during the life of Christ on earth has been written down, nor am I claiming this. In fact the word states exactly the opposite (John 21:25, concerning Christ). Here we might take a moment to point out that John is not making a blanket statement here, he is referring to the vastness of Christ’s works on earth – not His teaching, and is also speaking of what he himself has transferred – rather than the completeness of scripture.
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PraRFLEsEkHm
Guest
Yet we can deduce from the implicit words of scripture – spelled out as it were, that what we need to know is contained within, as we will see. The word of God was written for all people, of all times, in all places, and means to them everything it needs to mean to that person, at that time, in that place, to give them the opportunity for salvation; as well as comfort, hope, Love, Joy and Peace along the way – as a gift from our Father. The Gospels contain the whole truth of salvation, everything else reasons out that truth for us, through the Holy Spirit – Who was the only thing missing among us during the life of Christ on earth. This is the timelessness of the Word, and this is also why it was written the way it was. One needs only to look at the Old Testament to see the truth in this, as we still find applications for and of that same word today – both in ourselves and in the world as we know it. Yet – not everything in the O.T. applies to us today. This is why 2TIM 2:15 says (KJV): “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” Dividing not only the Old from the New Testament, but what applies to us, personally – in our place and time in our own life. Not everything is meant to make sense to everyone, as everyone has a different purpose. But that basic message of salvation does NOT change.
` Every scripture (passage, or verse) is God-breathed (theopneustos - the Greek word usually translated as ‘inspired’, means ‘God-breathed’) therefore the nature of Scripture originates in God, and so is a part of Him. By this we can see then that it is alive, as Hebrews 4:12 states: (ASV) “For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.” it is therefore perfect, and able to do what it says it will do; just as God, the True Author, is perfect and alive and able to do what He says He will do. Therefore we need then only to believe it (have Faith), and allow the Holy Spirit to accomplish what Scripture declares, through submission. (Phil 2:12, 13)
Because Scripture is God-breathed, and so represents God Himself speaking, it is perfect, and therefore profits the work of teaching, reproving, correcting, and instructing in righteousness due to the nature of Scripture being God-breathed. All that is required of us is Faith; and that too God gives to us as a gift, Ephesians 2:8 (ASV) “for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, `it is’ the gift of God;” That gift comes through Scripture by the Holy Spirit: Romans 10:17 (KJV)“So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” and Romans 15:16 (KJV) “That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.” The fact that we have God-breathed Scripture means, as verse 17 illustrates: that the man of God might be complete, perfectly and fully equipped for every good work. Which is to say: fully and completely furnished with everything needed to thoroughly and completely perform the stated purpose of the Gospel: Salvation; that work having already been fully and completely accomplished for us perfectly, by Christ on the cross (Gal 2:21); that is the message of Scripture.
Code:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Living God suffered and died for all our sins, and God Almighty raised Him up again three days later. Believe on this (the Rock), repent of your sins, be baptized (with water and the Spirit), and you will be saved. We are justified by faith alone in this, the Gospel, and then sanctified by grace through this same faith alone, by the Holy Spirit; this is not of our own merit – but a gift from God Almighty to us, His children - so that no one may boast. Everything else in the Word supports this Gospel: the True Gospel of Christ Jesus. From the faith of Abraham and those before him, to our own faith today and those to come: Romans 1:17 says it is “faith from first to last”: having Faith in Gods word; and allowing that faith to work through you to accomplish the tasks set before you by God (Eph 2:10) – through submission to, and by the power of, the Holy Spirit: who comes by faith as well, according to the will of God - this along with with repentance, is all that is required. It is finished, have faith in this – you have hope, for all has been accomplished for you already. Believe, repent, be baptized, and allow Christ to live through you by the Holy Spirit (Gal 2:20).
2 Timothy 3:16-17(ASV) “Every scripture inspired of God `is' also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.”Because Scripture is God-breathed, and so represents God Himself speaking, it is perfect, and therefore profits the work of teaching, reproving, correcting, and instructing in righteousness due to the nature of Scripture being God-breathed. All that is required of us is Faith; and that too God gives to us as a gift, Ephesians 2:8 (ASV) “for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, `it is’ the gift of God;” That gift comes through Scripture by the Holy Spirit: Romans 10:17 (KJV)“So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” and Romans 15:16 (KJV) “That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.” The fact that we have God-breathed Scripture means, as verse 17 illustrates: that the man of God might be complete, perfectly and fully equipped for every good work. Which is to say: fully and completely furnished with everything needed to thoroughly and completely perform the stated purpose of the Gospel: Salvation; that work having already been fully and completely accomplished for us perfectly, by Christ on the cross (Gal 2:21); that is the message of Scripture.
P
PraRFLEsEkHm
Guest
We must acknowledge here that these instruments of God (Those who physically wrote the God-breathed word) had to be aware of the fact that they were writing something which would be handed down as instruction for future generations, as surely the Holy Spirit would have made that fact known to them, if not simply by the fact of what they were accomplishing and the use of common sense. God chose to work through his fallen, and so, now – imperfect creatures, to accomplish His perfect will: the perfection which is the scriptures, complete, in order to pass on to us this whole knowledge which is our salvation now, was the promise of salvation in times past, and will stand forever. Matthew 24:35 (YLT) “The heaven and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” Just as surely, the Holy Spirit through Paul would have to direct us to any other vehicles of the truth outside of scripture that we would need to be complete, but as he does not, we must then conclude that there are none. Outside of personal revelation by God Himself, which is considered to be only for that person – if it indeed is a revelation from God, that leaves Public revelation. The next public revelation would be the expected arrival of the two witnesses in Jerusalem, with their accompanying miracles. (Rev 11:3-13) All Public revelation of God is also subject to this same word, as we see both in Rev 11, and in the Prophecies of the Coming of Christ and the accompanying miracles – which, of course, includes the written word – the only acceptable previous public revelation.
Everything God does replicates itself, in the natural world, as well as the spiritual world, See Romans 1:18-20. The word of God made flesh is Christ (John 1:1-14), who died for us men and for our salvation, and as we read the word to gain faith, faith in Christ saves us, sustains us, and sanctifies us – the Holy Spirit comes by this same faith to us for our sanctification: Acts 26:18 (ASV) says: “to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.” And Acts 15:8,9 (ASV) Peter is saying: “And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.;” which is to say: we are becoming Christ-like - the meaning of the word ‘sanctification’ - the word is replicating Himself in us by our faith, note also that it was God who saw their hearts, and made no distinction between the Apostles and the newly converted in this. As a result of this, the evil in the world will continue to come for us, to persecute and accuse as it did Christ before us. Which is why we are told to put on the whole armor of what, tradition? No: the word of God, Ephesians 6:13-17(all are ASV):
EPH 6:13 “Wherefore take up the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and, having done all, to stand.
EPH 6:14 “Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness,”
Where do we find truth? The Gospel, the Word of God. Where does righteousness come from? “The righteous shall live by faith”….faith which comes by hearing the word of God – all as we have already said.
EPH 6:15 “and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;”
The Gospel of Peace is the word of God, again.
EPH 6:16 withal taking up the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the evil `one’.
Again, faith comes from the word of God, which becomes our shield – protecting us.
EPH 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
We are saved by faith – which comes from the word of God, we know we are saved through our faith (the significance of this being a helmet) – because the word tells us so, Faith is: A Rock Solid belief in a Rock Solid foundation, Who is Christ. The sword of the spirit is what? The Word.
Peace to all.
Everything God does replicates itself, in the natural world, as well as the spiritual world, See Romans 1:18-20. The word of God made flesh is Christ (John 1:1-14), who died for us men and for our salvation, and as we read the word to gain faith, faith in Christ saves us, sustains us, and sanctifies us – the Holy Spirit comes by this same faith to us for our sanctification: Acts 26:18 (ASV) says: “to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.” And Acts 15:8,9 (ASV) Peter is saying: “And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.;” which is to say: we are becoming Christ-like - the meaning of the word ‘sanctification’ - the word is replicating Himself in us by our faith, note also that it was God who saw their hearts, and made no distinction between the Apostles and the newly converted in this. As a result of this, the evil in the world will continue to come for us, to persecute and accuse as it did Christ before us. Which is why we are told to put on the whole armor of what, tradition? No: the word of God, Ephesians 6:13-17(all are ASV):
EPH 6:13 “Wherefore take up the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and, having done all, to stand.
EPH 6:14 “Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness,”
Where do we find truth? The Gospel, the Word of God. Where does righteousness come from? “The righteous shall live by faith”….faith which comes by hearing the word of God – all as we have already said.
EPH 6:15 “and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;”
The Gospel of Peace is the word of God, again.
EPH 6:16 withal taking up the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the evil `one’.
Again, faith comes from the word of God, which becomes our shield – protecting us.
EPH 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
We are saved by faith – which comes from the word of God, we know we are saved through our faith (the significance of this being a helmet) – because the word tells us so, Faith is: A Rock Solid belief in a Rock Solid foundation, Who is Christ. The sword of the spirit is what? The Word.
Peace to all.
P
PraRFLEsEkHm
Guest
For 2 Tim 3:16-17; the catholic view generally is: that the apostle Paul is telling Timothy “To obey tradition, and then teaches Timothy that one can come to faith in Jesus Christ without reading the new testament (since Paul is referring to the Old Testament only)” he uses 2 Tim 3:14,15 for this, which state: (ASV) 14 “But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them.” He learned them from Paul – One of those who was writing Scripture and came to belief directly from Christ, this is not ‘Tradition’ it is the oral transmission of the new testament while it was being written, backed up by another Epistle – 2 Timothy! 15 (ASV) “And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” Which only says, basically – that he (Timothy) knows that the things which are being taught to him agree with the scriptures. He is being urged to remember those scriptures, and compare them with what he has been taught. Which is only right – we must back up any oral transmission with scripture no matter who it comes from: Gal 1:8 “But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.” Paul can hardly contradict himself, now can he?
They further contend that since Paul was giving the “Oral Tradition”, that proves that their “Sacred Tradition” today is just as valid. First of all, the major flaw in this line of reasoning is the necessity of writing the scriptures to begin with. If we actually read the scriptures for what they say – rather than what we want them to say – we find that most scriptures are written (by the Holy Spirit) to correct oral tradition gone bad, the other obvious clue to those with eyes to see and willing to look is that the Holy Spirit obviously was NOT protecting these ‘Holy Traditions’ in any other way than the Written Word. Otherwise, scripture would be filled with praise for the church keeping it’s oral tradition, and filled with new information rather than what they are filled with overwhelmingly – corrections for failing to keep the oral tradition which necessitated the writing of scripture and which also provided them (and everyone else) with a written word to refer to. What is lacking in one book of Scripture is made up for in another – in this way, all things are covered, and the Apostles in question are not just sitting in one place forever writing out the entire New testament for each Church [A process that most assuredly would have taken up a lifetime], but out performing the rest of their work – spreading the Gospel to those who had not yet received it I.E: Preaching, which act was never - so far as I am aware at least - in question by anyone. What IS in question is the unquestioned obedience to (at least when it suits the Church itself, apparently) and elevation to the status of Divine Revelation, of ‘Sacred Tradition’.
Peace
They further contend that since Paul was giving the “Oral Tradition”, that proves that their “Sacred Tradition” today is just as valid. First of all, the major flaw in this line of reasoning is the necessity of writing the scriptures to begin with. If we actually read the scriptures for what they say – rather than what we want them to say – we find that most scriptures are written (by the Holy Spirit) to correct oral tradition gone bad, the other obvious clue to those with eyes to see and willing to look is that the Holy Spirit obviously was NOT protecting these ‘Holy Traditions’ in any other way than the Written Word. Otherwise, scripture would be filled with praise for the church keeping it’s oral tradition, and filled with new information rather than what they are filled with overwhelmingly – corrections for failing to keep the oral tradition which necessitated the writing of scripture and which also provided them (and everyone else) with a written word to refer to. What is lacking in one book of Scripture is made up for in another – in this way, all things are covered, and the Apostles in question are not just sitting in one place forever writing out the entire New testament for each Church [A process that most assuredly would have taken up a lifetime], but out performing the rest of their work – spreading the Gospel to those who had not yet received it I.E: Preaching, which act was never - so far as I am aware at least - in question by anyone. What IS in question is the unquestioned obedience to (at least when it suits the Church itself, apparently) and elevation to the status of Divine Revelation, of ‘Sacred Tradition’.
Peace
M
MariaG
Guest
Okay, I did just spend a whole bunch of time responding to your points, bit by bit. However, since it was too long, and it is OFF TOPIC I’ll just respond to this first part.
Furnish the Scirpture that tells us to follow Scripture alone. Just One. Not one that says it is profitable, but all that is needed. Note 2Tim3:16-17 do NOT say it is all that is needed. It says it is profitable or useful.
2Tim3:16-17 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteiousness,17so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
Oral Apostolic Tradition Here is a link to the Many, many scriture talking about the oral word of God. In a new thread give me just one that says it has all been written down now, only follow our written words.
But I have yet to see where the Catholic doctrine on salvation contradicts Scripture, which is the topic of this thread.
God Bless,
Maria
M
MariaG
Guest
The Catholic Church would agree with this.
Saying we are justified by faith alone completely contradicts Scripture.
James 3:24 See how a person is justified by works an dnot by faith alone.
Salvation and justification. You seem to be using these terms interchangably. They are not interchangable.
By the way - If you do not agree with the Catholic position on faith and works, **you are not going to want to become Lutheran. ** Recently, there has been a statement from Lutherans that Catholics and Lutherans agree on this. Salvation is a gift from God that cannot be earned. But as Scripture clearly attests, we are justified by our works.
`
Interesting that you use Phil 2:12 - 13
Phil 2:12-13 So then, my beloved, ovedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For God is the one who, for the good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.
This supports James that we are Justified by our works.
What doctrine of the Catholic Church about salvation contradicts Scripture? Clearly not the fact that we are justified by our works since that is straight from Scripture.
God Bless,
Maria
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