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MariaG
Guest
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PraRFLEsEkHm
Guest
I hate to be blunt, but - you answered your own question. I am refuting the concept of Tradition stating that it is works by which we are justified. As well as Oral Tradition as a whole, and as it pertains to sanctification , [which - yes - is a major part of salvation, but separate from that in itself] since Justification and sanctification leads to salvation that ends in glorification…what else is there you were referring to for salvation?
As for your posts I refer you to the CCC:
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through ]faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "**Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man./B]39
also paragraphs 1992 and 1995.
as for justification being entirely by faith scripturally:
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, *, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
and many many more verses saying the same thing throughout Romans.
As for the passage in James…Works - Yes we are to have works - how else are we to Love? The Law is now Love, Not works for the sake of works or for gaining our salvation, or Justification even. We already have that - we are to uphold the Law [The Mosaic Law} in the spirit of Love - as Christ told us to, not in fear of condemnation for breaking it - which we surely will - but in Love. Love of God, and Love of neighbor. In this we are showing our Justification, which was freely given to us by God, from our Faith. Do you see?
Peace**
As for your posts I refer you to the CCC:
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through ]faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "**Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man./B]39
also paragraphs 1992 and 1995.
as for justification being entirely by faith scripturally:
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, *, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
and many many more verses saying the same thing throughout Romans.
As for the passage in James…Works - Yes we are to have works - how else are we to Love? The Law is now Love, Not works for the sake of works or for gaining our salvation, or Justification even. We already have that - we are to uphold the Law [The Mosaic Law} in the spirit of Love - as Christ told us to, not in fear of condemnation for breaking it - which we surely will - but in Love. Love of God, and Love of neighbor. In this we are showing our Justification, which was freely given to us by God, from our Faith. Do you see?
Peace**
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PraRFLEsEkHm
Guest
Also in the CCC Paragraphs 2017 - 2029 for justification being entirely by Grace through Faith…not works. Not ONE WORD about works - so how did this ''Tradition" start???
man - as it certainly wasn’t God.
man - as it certainly wasn’t God.
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MariaG
Guest
:bible1: James 3:24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
It is not Catholic Oral Tradition that states that. It is written Scripture.
our Justification, which was freely given to us by God, from our Faith. Do you see?
Where in Catholic doctrine does it say we earn our salvation? As for justifiction, Scripture clearly tells us we are justified by our works and not faith alone.
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MariaG
Guest
What “Tradition” are you talking about?
If you are talking about the MISINTERPRETATION of Catholic teaching, it started with Martin Luther. Otherwise, I really don’t know what “tradition” you are talking about. Could you please be more specific and cite Catholic doctrine?
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PraRFLEsEkHm
Guest
I’m guessing that you didn’t even bother to read the CCC - supposing that you already know it, I’d guess also, is the reason. [Understanding of Church teaching doesn’t come through osmosis - you actually have to read] That being the case, I see no point in pursuing a conversation with you - as you clearly have no idea what your own faith teaches - which is that justification is by Faith - sanctification which follows Justification, and is considered [by the church] to be a part of justification, is by Faith and works. NOT works alone, or Faith alone. However - you appear to want to be vehemently anti-anything that even sounds like it might be anti-Catholic, especially when it comes from someone who is not Catholic. Therefore an honest dialog is impossible. It also appears to be obvious that your information has come primarily by word of mouth rather than honest study, that is too bad - because we all will have to answer for what we profess to know, as well as what we teach.
The tradition that I was referring to is the one most commonly held by people who profess the faith - and have no real idea what it [the Faith] teaches…which is the erroneous belief that justification is by works, rather than faith. which - if you bother to read the CCC as I suggested - you will learn. [it’s in the index under the heading of ‘Justification’, in case you don’t believe me on that either]
God Bless
The tradition that I was referring to is the one most commonly held by people who profess the faith - and have no real idea what it [the Faith] teaches…which is the erroneous belief that justification is by works, rather than faith. which - if you bother to read the CCC as I suggested - you will learn. [it’s in the index under the heading of ‘Justification’, in case you don’t believe me on that either]
God Bless
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BlindSheep
Guest
Oh, I see. So what you are saying is that it would be necessary for God to communicate everything in the written form, because this form prevents error and confusion? You are making the point that no person sincerly seeking truth can fail to correctly interpret sacred Scripture, correct?
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MariaG
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Well you are the first person on these boards to ever call me anti anything. Maybe you need to reread my posts?
If you wish to discuss this with others, I will ignore your posts and let others answer. In fact, I was thinking about you last night thinking I should invite someone else to this thread because I do not seem to be able to understand your points and now you seem to think I am a negative person.
And where in my post did I ever say that I though it was by works alone? I do know that the Catholic Church teaches that it is by Faith working in Love.
And as to what people believe, it is not what well educated Catholics believe in works alone, it was starting with Martin Luther, people telling Catholics this is what your doctrine states.
Ah, but here again, I am trying to dialogue with you. I try not to respond to you anymore since you find me so a disagreeable poster and I find myself wanting to return in kind.
You might wish to actually look into the definition of Sacred Oral Tradition. You also might wish to realize the fact that it is not usually Catholic who don’t understand their faith, but others who incorrectly state it and then people like you who assume that just because I quote James, I don’t understand either.
I will invite several others who may be able to shine the light of Christ which I so have miserably failed with you.
God Bless,
Maria
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MariaG
Guest
I finally realized that you were arguing the the official doctrine of the Catholic Church does not teach work based salvation, showing me from the Catechism, a fact that I was aware of
The “man” that started this “tradition of men” and that the Catholic Church supposedly teaches it was Martin Luther, the man who left the Catholic Church and founded the Lutheran Church. It is one of the most vicious lies of the Catholic Church that no well educated Catholic actually believes. But obviously, due to preconceived ideas of others, people seem to have trouble understanding what we mean when we quote James.
(Look at my posts. I never claimed that it was through works alone, I was simply trying to refute faith alone since James says it so plainly. It is simply through your preconceived idea of “what catholics believed” that you read works alone. I could have stated more clearly, Faith working in love and didn’t, I apologize for that.)
When most Non-Catholics refer to “traditions of men” of the Catholic Church, they honestly believe that the Catholic Church officially teach those things. They do Not mean that it is just a commonly held belief of Catholics. (Commonly held beliefs of former Catholics and non-Catholics? Yes. But not among Catholics themselves.)
As you found yourself, the Catholic Church has not taught nor ever taught that we earn our way to heaven on our works. The belief otherwise is NOT a “Tradition” of the Catholic Church, formal or informal.
It is refered to as a “Tradition of men” as a way to mock
authenticly Catholic “Sacred Oral Traditions” by those who are ignorant of the real teaching of the Catholic Church.
Just a note. Most Catholics here on these boards Have read their catechism, including me. You made some assumptions about me that were simply untrue. I unfortunately did not catch on as quick as I should have that you were arguing that the CCC did not teach works based salvation. I have never had that particular argument from a non-Catholic before, so forgive me for not realizing sooner what you were actually saying.
God Bless,
Maria
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ChristianWAB
Guest
Tantum ergo:
*
The one who said that we need **JESUS for our salvation is correct (…at least as far as I’ve learned about the Gospels and the Bible). However, I’ve been told quite a lot to the contrary over these past few years, which upsets me greatly because I fear that people are losing their focus. One good friend of mine who has been a faithful Catholic for over sixty years just recently told me that if I don’t pray the Hail Mary or the Rosary, I’d go to hell. I said, *“What about believing and trusting in Jesus?” *He said, “Well, that’s important, too.”
TOO?!?!? I couldn’t believe my ears.
From what I could gather in reading the Catechism, it teaches that salvation is available only through the Catholic church! The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains it like this: *“For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.” (Pg. 215, #816) *
“…all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation…” (Pg. 224, #846)
The Catholic church also teaches that the sacraments are necessary for salvation as well*(Pg. 292, #1129),* but I won’t delve too deeply into that at the moment, lest I veer off-topic. So, I’ll start with just one question for now:
If the Roman Catholic church is what we need to be saved, then how do you explain the thief on the cross next to Jesus?
I never saw an account of him being baptized in the Bible and I’m fairly certain he neither ate Jesus’ flesh nor drank His blood. What I DID read, however, were the thief’s words, asking Jesus to remember him when He entered His kingdom. That, in my humble opinion, demonstrated that he **BELIEVED **in Jesus and believed that what He was saying all along was the truth. And, according to our Lord, that was sufficient.
So, I’ve placed my trust in Jesus for my salvation because I believe that only HE can save me.
Sorry for the delay. I had a major life crisis hit soon after starting this thread, so I apologize for not responding much sooner *(…though it looks like you guys did a pretty good job by yourselves).
*The one who said that we need **JESUS for our salvation is correct (…at least as far as I’ve learned about the Gospels and the Bible). However, I’ve been told quite a lot to the contrary over these past few years, which upsets me greatly because I fear that people are losing their focus. One good friend of mine who has been a faithful Catholic for over sixty years just recently told me that if I don’t pray the Hail Mary or the Rosary, I’d go to hell. I said, *“What about believing and trusting in Jesus?” *He said, “Well, that’s important, too.”
TOO?!?!? I couldn’t believe my ears.
From what I could gather in reading the Catechism, it teaches that salvation is available only through the Catholic church! The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains it like this: *“For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained.” (Pg. 215, #816) *
“…all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation…” (Pg. 224, #846)
The Catholic church also teaches that the sacraments are necessary for salvation as well*(Pg. 292, #1129),* but I won’t delve too deeply into that at the moment, lest I veer off-topic. So, I’ll start with just one question for now:
If the Roman Catholic church is what we need to be saved, then how do you explain the thief on the cross next to Jesus?
I never saw an account of him being baptized in the Bible and I’m fairly certain he neither ate Jesus’ flesh nor drank His blood. What I DID read, however, were the thief’s words, asking Jesus to remember him when He entered His kingdom. That, in my humble opinion, demonstrated that he **BELIEVED **in Jesus and believed that what He was saying all along was the truth. And, according to our Lord, that was sufficient.
So, I’ve placed my trust in Jesus for my salvation because I believe that only HE can save me.
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Gene_C
Guest
Hi ChristianWAB,
First, I believe the Old Covenant was still in effect when the thief on the Cross repented and believed on our Lord Jesus Christ. The New Covenant officially took over on the day of Pentecost. From then on, the message was, in a nutshell, repent and believe on Jesus and be baptized. And there is also the need to persevere to the end of your life in faith and holiness. This is the teaching of Scripture. And the Church.
Do you agree?
Peace,
Gene
First, I believe the Old Covenant was still in effect when the thief on the Cross repented and believed on our Lord Jesus Christ. The New Covenant officially took over on the day of Pentecost. From then on, the message was, in a nutshell, repent and believe on Jesus and be baptized. And there is also the need to persevere to the end of your life in faith and holiness. This is the teaching of Scripture. And the Church.
Do you agree?
Peace,
Gene
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MariaG
Guest
I am sorry to hear that. I hope the crisis had a good resolution.
for our salvation is correct* …*However, I’ve been told quite a lot to the contrary over these past few years, which upsets me greatly because I fear that people are losing their focus. One good friend of mine who has been a faithful Catholic for over sixty years just recently told me that if I don’t pray the Hail Mary or the Rosary, I’d go to hell. I said, *“What about believing and trusting in Jesus?” *He said, “Well, that’s important, too.”
While I too would be distressed to hear a person say that, I certainly hope you are not going to blame faulty theology of one man on the entire Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is very Christ centered.
Although I do not know this for fact, I do what the prayers of the Rosary are. They are Christ centered medititions on Christ’s life, death and resurrection. Most who pray the Rosary BECAUSE it helps them to focus on Christ.
“…all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation…” (Pg. 224, #846)
Read again what you yourself wrote down. …**All salvation comes from Christ. **Isn’t that what you believe? All salvation is through Christ alone?
The Catholic Church has defined more exactly what that means through Scripture that tells us that Christ is the Church. We can get into Scripture if needed, although I personally don’t have much more time today. I just came for a quick look and saw that you had finally been able to post again.
All salvation is through Christ, and the Catholic Church teaches this. And as I said, later I will post, or others will, the scripture that talks of Christ being the head of the body, the Church if needed.
If the Roman Catholic church is what we need to be saved, then how do you explain the thief on the cross next to Jesus?
That would be explained through Baptism by Desire. God chooses to show Himself to us through the Sacraments, but is not limited by them.
So, I’ve placed my trust in Jesus for my salvation because I believe that only HE can save me.
It is a very good thing that you place your trust in Jesus because He is the only one who can save you. Catholic Christians do the same.
God Bless,
Maria
ps I had to edit your quotes due to length.
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Loboto-Me
Guest
But Flopfoot, you and I both know that non-denomination IS Catholic. The Catholic Church is not a domination, it is the first Church.
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CANman
Guest
This is because Catholics differentiate between the intial grace of justification and in the continuing state to be justified for “He who holds out to the will be justified.” The CCC quotes you gave refer to the initial grace which no one can earn. Yet, once we become justified, we must freely cooperate with Gods’ Grace in our lives for “just man lives by faith”. See "lives"s an action word.
You cannot excerpt parts of the CCC and ignore others. This is a cut and paste mentality that has no place in Christianity.
R
RyanL
Guest
Outside the Church there is no salvation:
If these references are surprising to anyone, perhaps they don’t know the Church’s teachings as well as they think…
God Bless,
RyanL
Code:
Works based Gospel? Try the Council of Trent:Works based Gospel? Anathema. Salvation outside the Church? Not possible. Scriptures say so (will provide if requested).
If these references are surprising to anyone, perhaps they don’t know the Church’s teachings as well as they think…
God Bless,
RyanL
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Paris_Blues
Guest
Christ established the Catholic Church and that’s a TRUE fact there. The CC IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE!!!
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SPOKENWORD
Guest
Paris Blues:
God Bless
Thats not what my bible says.
God Bless
S
Superstar905
Guest
lol, true…Paris, I understand your point, but you said it wrong.Thats not what my bible says.
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