Salvation

[guanophore]

True! Here I’m just pointing out that the end result of our view of God, man, and salvation, will our focus–WHAT (or who) we are trusting for our salvation, and therefore, our whole devotion in life. I’ve noticed that when a group of people views mankind as basically GOOD, their trust will be in their own supposed goodness and their own ability to cooperate with God. For those who view mankind as fallen and EVIL, their focus will be on their own sinfulness and their need for God’s wonderful mercy.

Well, there sure are a lot of assumptions here. How is it that “I’ve noticed” becomes a standard for the understanding of doctrine? Shouldn’t doctrine be based on what God has revealed, rather than what mankind presumes?

Viewing mankind as “good” is not opposed to the doctrine of “fallen”. Although God created man and called him “good”, man chose to sin, thus separating himself from the grace of God. The consequence of this fallen state is that we are unable to return to a right relationship with God without His help. However, once being returned to it by His grace, we then are able to attain the good for which He made us. In no case should our focus be on our own selves, whether good or sinful, but the focus should be on God’s mercy.

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

It seems to me that you erroneously believe that Catholics trust in themselves for righteousness, rather than rely on God’s mercy.

Yes. No one seeks the physician if he thinks he doesn’t have any disease.

How do you reconcile this with the clear statements in scripture that man is created with a natural yearning for God?

If God wanted to save all of us He certainly could save all of us, couldn’t He? But it pleased God to choose some and not all.

And how to you reconcile this with the passages that clearly state God wants all to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth?

  But it pleased Him to create human beings instead.

Indeed, humans with a choice about whether to reject HIm or not. The reason that not all are saved is because some reject the purpose of God for themselves.

Yes. I believe that God has the ability to cause us to become willing even to give our lives for His glory. God has indeed given this to some, but not to all of us.

The offer is there, but some choose not to take advantage of it.

James 2: 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

Rom. 4:4-5
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

---

The Catholic doctrine has James teaching that Abraham was made righteous (justified) by his works, and Paul teaching that Abraham was credited with righteousness (justified) by faith apart from works. Which is it?

It’s both. It is faith, working through love.

 

[guanophore]

Both are true. All of are sinners in our flesh, and there are some people who are blameless and righteous IN CHRIST.

Well, the problem with this is that Christ had not come yet. How is it they were righteous BEFORE Christ?

No one is righteous in their flesh. Because all have sinned, we need to be made righteous and it is the Spirit who makes us righteous, not the deeds of our flesh.

You are confusing works of the flesh with Sacred Works. The parents of John the Baptist walked in the ways of God and were “blameless”. How did this happen before Pentecost?

Do you think this passage is telling us that fallen mankind seeks only the One God that really exists and not other gods that don’t exist?

I think it is telling us that we are created with an innate desire to “feel after God and find Him”. Paul used it in a context of Pagans to point out that he commended them for searching “I see in every way that you are very religious”. Even the unregenerate man can long to connect the That for which he was created.

Without regeneration, mankind is hostile to God. Those who are opposed to God do not, and will not, seek God.

Well, we see it differently.

Catholics believe that there is a drawing grace that courts people, and desires that all be saved. Those who respond and are baptized are regenerated, and capable of cooperating with God.

Rom. 8:7
the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

But you see that even the sinful mind is aware of God, and capable of being convicted of sin because it is not submitted. The ability to submit to God is not there, but the need and desire to do so still exist.

Not unless we have been born of the Spirit.

If you are using the above passage as a basis for this assertion then if falls short. The Spirit of God works through the Law of God to convict men of sin. Hostility toward God requires that one be aware of God and His call. You cannot be hostile toward someone you don’t know exists.

I’m saying that what it is that makes us righteous in God’s sight–thereby saving us from our sins, is the good works that were done by Jesus, who suffered on the cross and died for His sheep. This is the FOCUS of truly repentant sinners who have been saved by God’s wonderful mercy. But many will hear the gospel message and they will still be confidently FOCUSED on their own good works for their salvation.

This is absolutely true. However, once one is “in Christ” and is a new creation, they then participate in Sacred Works, which are those that God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. These works are connected to the work of Christ, and in doing them, we work out in ourselves the salvation He purchased for us. It seems to me that you are confusing Sacred Works with “works of the flesh”.

Yes, that is what Scripture teaches.

The Scriptures dont’ “teach”. People teach. This notion, concocted by Calvin, is a frequently taught error.

Is God sovereign over most things, or is He sovereign over all things?

All. When He created humans and angels with free will, he ordained that they be able to choose between eternity with, or without HIm. He did not force the angels to remain with Him.

Then maybe you can tell me WHY some people freely choose to accept what is truly GOOD, while others freely choose to reject what is truly GOOD.

No, I don’t think I really can… I can tell you that I chose to reject what was good out of rebellion.

Are you saying that since you have freely chosen to accept what is GOOD while many others have rejected God, you are morally superior to those who reject God? I’m just wondering what it is specifically, that makes YOUR free will capable of such great moral reasoning that many other people do not seem to have.

No, this is some sort of imposition you are making onto Catholics, I am not sure why, or where it comes from. I don’t think that people that choose life and not death have any “great moral reasoning”. On the contrary, I agree with what you have said in your posts about becoming aware of oneself having so great a need for a saviour. Do you believe that you are morally superior, because you could see the great depth of your need for a saviour? I think not.

Frankly, I am mystified about how or why you can level this charge against Catholics.

The man who claims to have saving faith will, in general, be the sort of man who shows his faith by doing good unto others. But the good deeds he does unto others has absolutely NOTHING to do with what has made him righteous and saved.

This is very Catholic, except that we don’t consider ourselves "saved"until death, because we believe in free will, we believe that one can walk away from the grace of God at anytime.

 

[Odell]

Luke 18:9-14
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The fact is the lesson of this parable shows it is about the inner condition of the heart, humility in this case. The tax collector recognized he was a sinner, he humbly repented and was truly forgiven thus he truly went home exalted (justified before God). There was no Protestant style imputation here, rather there was a real transformation of the heart.

And as guanophore was just aluding to Catholics dont trust in there own rightousness this man trusted in God. Remember YOU dont even believe you have to humble yourself YOUR covered YOU dont need a change of heart your predestined You dont need to ask for forgiveness Jesus died and covered past future and present.

 

[Odell]

I agree with what you have said in your posts about becoming aware of oneself having so great a need for a saviour. Do you believe that you are morally superior, because you could see the great depth of your need for a saviour? I think not.

Frankly, I am mystified about how or why you can level this charge against Catholics.
.

**Good point **

I bet he dont answer

 

[ChrisWRIT]

Hi Nick,

By the way you’ve worded this relationship between faith and works above, it isn’t really clear to me if you are interpreting James 2 the same way that I do.

You’re right, I’m not interpreting James the same way as you.

I don’t remember where, but I’m pretty sure you’ve noted before that you interpret Scripture privately (led by the Holy Spirit, of course.) Is that correct?

When I read the Bible & search for meaning, I defer to the teaching of the Catholic Church, meaning I take Church teaching as more likely to have come to a correct & consistent understanding of the truth of scripture than myself. (After all, the Church DOES have a 1,500 year head start on me regarding Bible study! )

In any case, even if I were interpreting it privately (also led by the Holy Spirit, of course), what makes your personal interpretation more infallible than mine? Or more infallible than anyone else who claims to also be “led by the Spirit”, but comes to contradictory conclusions?

The Catholic Church, in agreement with scripture, does believe in predestination (although not *double-*predestination.) The Catholic teaching on predestination is a bit more consistent with the entirety of scripture than the Calvinistic view.

Are you a Calvinist? That would explain many of your stated & implied concepts.

If so, I recommend an article by Jimmy Akin (a former Calvinist himself), titled “A Tiptoe through TULIP” which notes that there is a surprisingly high degree to which Calvinist thought can be harmonized with Thomistic/Catholic thought. They are not identical at all, but there is far less of a distance between them than is typically thought.

Regarding “Total Depravity” from the article:

*"Despite its name, the doctrine of total depravity does not mean men are always and only sinful. Calvinists do not think we are as sinful as we possibly could be. They claim our free will has been injured by original sin to the point that, unless God gives us special grace, we cannot free ourselves from sin and choose to serve God in love. We might choose to serve him out of fear, but not out of unselfish love [9].

"What would a Catholic think of this teaching? While he would not use the term “total depravity” to describe the doctrine [10], he would actually agree with it. The accepted Catholic teaching is that, because of the fall of Adam, man cannot do anything out of supernatural love unless God gives him special grace to do so [11].*

Check it out!
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm

God Bless,

Chris

 

[Odell]

Abraham was justified BEFORE he did the good works that he was known for (see Gen. 15:6).

EXACTLY

Would you say he was justified in Gen Ch 12?

he obviously pleased God and God blessed him.

We cant please God without being Justified can we

But wait (Gen 15:6) “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” [Genesis 15:6]

Seems like he was increased in his Justification

and now James 2:14-26 Talks about Abraham being justified by offering Isaac

These three passages uncover something that is so decisive that the Protestant understanding of justification runs into serious problems. In each of the above passages we see Abraham mentioned, as well as “justification” mentioned, yet each of these passages reference a different point in Abraham’s life! What this means is that justification is not a one time event in the Christian’s life and it does not occur only upon their conversion to Christianity. The Protestant imputation understanding can’t explain this because, in the Protestant model, justification can and only needs to occur once, and this occurs once and for all time at the moment the sinner converts to Christianity. Galatians 3:8 is very clearly talking about justification and that by faith Abraham accepted the OT equivalent to the Gospel when he obeyed God in Genesis 12. Hebrews 11:8 also references this obedience of Abraham in Genesis 12 and thus Abraham had to be justified at this point. To suggest, as Protestantism does, that Abraham was not actually justified until Genesis 15 results in serious problems, that would mean Abraham was pleasing and obeying God all those years leading up to Genesis 15 yet he was never saved!
For the Catholic model these passages pose no problem at all, the fact is as Abraham continued to obey God he increased in justification (righteousness) through the continuous infusion of grace. This is how James 2 above is to be understood as well, Abraham grew in righteousness as he continued to grow in God’s love and was justified through his obedience in Genesis 22:9-12. Lastly comes the most problematic passage for Protestants in the Bible, James 2:24 which explicitly says justification is “not by faith alone.” Protestants offer many excuses at this point (which include changing the meaning of “justify” in this passage), yet when interpreted in light of Abraham’s justification in Genesis 12 (Gal 3:8; Heb 11:8) and later in Gen 15:6 (Rom 4) the Catholic interpretation of James 2 is the one that best fits the Biblical evidence (also note Gen 26:4-5).

is teaching against the beliefs of certain people that the mere profession of faith is what saves us. The faith that saves will, in general, be evident by what we do.
.

Says you that is not what the passage says but keep trying

 

[Nick_Jones]

Do you think the** HE **in this passage is Buddha?

Acts 17:26-27
26 And HE made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him.

No The He is Jesus (God) who made us where we would seek HIM (God) The real God not buddha not any other gods that dont exist.

We are created in Gods likeness and we naturally desire to know the truth. Look at the Indians they desired God just because it wasnt the real God dosnt mean that they were not created with the desire to seek the true God.

Man you dont know how ridiculous you sound.

So the Indians didnt seek God

So the Indians didnt seek God?

No one seeks God unless God, by the Spirit, shows them their desperate need for Him. We must be born again. The unregenerate are hostile toward God and do not seek Him.

Rom. 3:9-12
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

 

[Nick_Jones]

You still have not answered my question

If Human beings not Robots were open to God (The Spirit of God) could we experinced a change of heart in such a way to follow Christ and abide in his commandments?

No, not in this life. Adam and Eve were created perfectly good and righteous, yet they sinned. None of us began our lives perfectly good and righteous. All of us were born into sin (unrighteousness) through Adam. In our flesh, we continue to sin, and in a sense, our flesh is already dead because of sin.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Is God Love or is He evil?

God is love.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Jesus was teaching that this Man was not willing to do what God asked of Him.

In Mark 10:10-27 Jesus was teaching that only He (God) is good. We can be sure that if we ourselves were good, we would certainly keep the commandments. Jesus demonstrated that although the rich man viewed himself as good, he was in fact, violating the first commandment:

Exodus 20:3
“You shall have no other gods before me.”

 

[bookgirl32]

Nick,

Can you cite where you think the Bible is providing a basis for the concept of predestination?

 

[Odell]

No one seeks God unless God, by the Spirit, shows them their desperate need for Him. We must be born again. The unregenerate are hostile toward God and do not seek Him.

what is your definiton of unregenerate?

You belive no one seeks God unless God shows certain people. The bible teaches God desires all to enter life. So the Church teaches that God gives this need for Him to everyone not some naturally if God desires all that by YOU own belives he wiould give this desire to whom he pleases

Welll scripture says ALL

Rom. 3:9-12
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

The key to this verse is AS IT IS WRITTEN. The author is quoting from Psalm 14.
Psalm 14 says, “Fools say in their heart there is no God. Their deeds are loathsome and corrupt; not one does what is right.” Does that sound like it relates to Romans 3:10? But let’s read on to Psalm 14 verse 5 that says “They have good reason, then to fear; God is with the company of the righteous.” But, wait a minute, I thought “there is no one righteous”. To be correct, the Old Testament teaching is that, only among the wicked and foolish, all are sinful. And the righteous continue to seek God. We must read scripture in context and to do that you need to understand that Paul was quoting the Old Testament.

You also have problems with verses like this

(James 5:16) says that the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Luke chapter 1 says that Elizabeth and Zechariah were righteous before God and walked blameless in the commandments.
(Lk 1: 15) “He will be filled with the holy spirit even from the womb.” This verse is talking about John the Baptist who is filled with the Holy Spirit evenfrom his mother’s womb. Can someone filled with the Holy Spirit be unregenerate?

something for you to ponder

No, not in this life. Adam and Eve were created perfectly good and righteous, yet they sinned. None of us began our lives perfectly good and righteous. All of us were born into sin (unrighteousness) through Adam. In our flesh, we continue to sin, and in a sense, our flesh is already dead because of sin.

And Christ came to restore this that is why when the Jews asked why Moses allowed devorce. He said IN THE BEGINNING IT WAS NOT SO! He points to the beginning because he wants us to know why and for what we are created for and that is to live in God In Christ.

In Mark 10:10-27 Jesus was teaching that only He (God) is good. We can be sure that if we ourselves were good, we would certainly keep the commandments. Jesus demonstrated that although the rich man viewed himself as good, he was in fact, violating the first commandment:

Exodus 20:3
“You shall have no other gods before me.”

We can keep the commandments YOU have to realize that YOU dont have to break HIs commandments if YOU respond to HIS GRACE

And if we dont sell everything we have WE break the First Commandment. Some demonstration

Let me ask you have you sold all your goods if NOT YOUR breaking the first commandment. But thats OK YOU can break the first commanment

 

[guanophore]

No one seeks God unless God, by the Spirit, shows them their desperate need for Him. We must be born again. The unregenerate are hostile toward God and do not seek Him.

Rom. 3:9-12
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

This is true of those “fools” who say in their heart, “there is no God”. However, there are those who do acknowledge God, and the Law increases their own awareness of the need for a saviour. This was the purpose of the Law.

Gal 3:24
24 So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith.

No one can be justified by the Law, by through it, one becomes aware of one’s need for a saviour. Hostility or separation from God is not the same as being devoid of a desire for God. Fallen man at one and the same time has a deep yearning for God, yet finds himself unable to reconnect to His creator.

 

[Nick_Jones]

The fact is the lesson of this parable shows it is about the inner condition of the heart, humility in this case. The tax collector recognized he was a sinner, he humbly repented and was truly forgiven thus he truly went home exalted (justified before God). There was no Protestant style imputation here, rather there was a real transformation of the heart.

Here once again, you seem completely focused on the sinner and his supposed goodness–the fact that he recognized he was a sinner and he humbly repented. But it never seems to enter your mind that the tax collector was brought to the realization that he is a sinner by the grace of God.

And as guanophore was just aluding to Catholics dont trust in there own rightousness this man trusted in God. Remember YOU dont even believe you have to humble yourself YOUR covered YOU dont need a change of heart your predestined You dont need to ask for forgiveness Jesus died and covered past future and present.

No, I didn’t humble myself. By the grace of regeneration, God revealed my sinfulness to me and caused me to see myself as I really am–a horribly vile sinner in desperate need of God’s mercy. I never would have asked God for forgiveness without this supernatural gift of regeneration. Before becoming born again I viewed myself as a good and honorable person.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Um, yeah, try answering my question.

And this is proving what to us? We already believe this. We’re not talking about our works, we’re talking about God’s works through us. I think the problem you’re having with us is that you believe in predestination, and it sounds like you think God just picks certain people to be saved and then saves them, regardless of anything they ever do, even believe.

It is unfortunate that I’m coming across as someone who thinks **“God just picks certain people to be saved and then saves them, regardless of anything they ever do, even believe.” ** What is it specifically that I said to come across that way?

So are there people walking around out there completely ignorant of the fact that they’ve been “saved”? Or does God save them, then let them know they’ve been saved, then they’re really glad about it?

God’s grace brings specific sinners (the elect) to repentance by causing them to begin to see themselves as they really are–sinners deserving to burn in hell for all eternity. Jesus said, “you must be born again.” A person that has been born again will know that he or she is saved, and such a person will be really glad about it.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Well, there sure are a lot of assumptions here. How is it that “I’ve noticed” becomes a standard for the understanding of doctrine? Shouldn’t doctrine be based on what God has revealed, rather than what mankind presumes?

I have never stated that “I’ve noticed” is, could, or should, become a standard for the understanding of doctrine. If you wish, you are quite free to deny what I have noticed.

Viewing mankind as “good” is not opposed to the doctrine of “fallen”.

Then what specifically, do you think changed within mankind’s nature due to the fall?

Although God created man and called him “good”, man chose to sin, thus separating himself from the grace of God. The consequence of this fallen state is that we are unable to return to a right relationship with God without His help. However, once being returned to it by His grace, we then are able to attain the good for which He made us. In no case should our focus be on our own selves, whether good or sinful, but the focus should be on God’s mercy.

If mankind is still good even AFTER the fall, then WHY do we need God’s mercy?

It seems to me that you erroneously believe that Catholics trust in themselves for righteousness, rather than rely on God’s mercy.

To be honest, I can’t even comprehend WHY you would need God’s mercy if you (and all mankind) is still good after the fall.

How do you reconcile this with the clear statements in scripture that man is created with a natural yearning for God?

It is true that before the fall, Adam and Eve, being truly good, had
a natural yearning for God. But as a result of the fall, unregenerate man is hostile to God.

And how to you reconcile this with the passages that clearly state God wants all to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth?

I suspect that after reading those passages in their context, and in light of the rest of Scripture, you might perhaps find what is really taught. For example, has God provided all people in every period of time equal access to the Scriptures?

 

[Nick_Jones]

When I read the Bible & search for meaning, I defer to the teaching of the Catholic Church, meaning I take Church teaching as more likely to have come to a correct & consistent understanding of the truth of scripture than myself. (After all, the Church DOES have a 1,500 year head start on me regarding Bible study! )

Why the Catholic Church? Are you trusting in your church because of how long your church has been around?

 

[Nick_Jones]

Well, the problem with this is that Christ had not come yet. How is it they were righteous BEFORE Christ?

Hi guanophore,

I guess I don’t really understand what you’re saying here, regarding BEFORE Christ.

You are confusing works of the flesh with Sacred Works. The parents of John the Baptist walked in the ways of God and were “blameless”. How did this happen before Pentecost?

Can you explain what you mean by “Sacred Works”? Can you tell me what Pentecost has to do with the parents of John the Baptist? All of this is rather hard for me to follow.

 

[Nick_Jones]

I think it is telling us that we are created with an innate desire to “feel after God and find Him”. Paul used it in a context of Pagans to point out that he commended them for searching “I see in every way that you are very religious”. Even the unregenerate man can long to connect the That for which he was created.

You seem to be equating “very religious” with an innate desire to “feel after God and find Him”. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you are assuming that religion is primarily about the human hunger for that which is good (God) then how do you explain the ugly fruits of religion throughout history? Isn’t it possible that “very religious” often means, “very violent” and “very intolerant”? If “very religious” is a good thing, can you explain why you think so?

 

[Odell]

Here once again, you seem completely focused on the sinner and his supposed goodness–the fact that he recognized he was a sinner and he humbly repented. But it never seems to enter your mind that the tax collector was brought to the realization that he is a sinner by the grace of God.

It never seems to enter your mind no matter how numerous of times we have told you IT IS ONLY BY THE GRACE OF GOD. This is what the Church teaches

How ever YOU belive it stops there. YOU believe that we cant keep the commandments because some how the GRACE of GOD stops helping us after repentence. "Were covered WE dont have to keep the commandments because we are covered and Christ wouldnt give us the GRACE to keep something that we are covered from anyway

No, I didn’t humble myself. By the grace of regeneration, God revealed my sinfulness to me and caused me to see myself as I really am–a horribly vile sinner in desperate need of God’s mercy. I never would have asked God for forgiveness without this supernatural gift of regeneration. Before becoming born again I viewed myself as a good and honorable person.

Thats grate God revealed my sinfulness to me and caused me to realize that ALL things are possible IN HIM. God reveled to me that I dont have to break HIs commanments because He Gives me the grace to avoid doin so

1 Corinthians 10:13
13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
I wonder what that way out might be

GRACE!

But Nick You want notice the way out if your blind to it. YOu dont even believe he provides a way out of you breaking his commanments.

Who is reading scripture as a whole:shrug:

Let it be known that Catholics believe We are saved by GRACE ALONE
Just in case you didnt get that NICK

GRACE ALONE

Why the Catholic Church? Are you trusting in your church because of how long your church has been around?

We trust in the Church Christ gave us Nick

the Pillar and Bulwark of TRUTH (1 Tim 3:15).

Not Nick Jones interpritation of scripture.