Salvation

[Cling2Cross]

Relevant passage:

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. (1 Corinthians 15:10 KJV)

You are indicating that only the half of the praise is ascribed to God, and that the other half is reserved for man. You, accordingly, understand the meaning to be that Paul labored not alone, inasmuch as he could do nothing without co-operating grace, but at the same time it was under the influence of his own free-will, and by means of his own strength. His words, however, have quite a different meaning, for what he had said was his own, he afterwards, correcting himself, ascribes wholly to the grace of God — wholly, I say, not in part, for whatever he might have seemed to do, was wholly, he declares, the work of grace. A remarkable passage certainly, both for laying low the pride of man, and for magnifying the operation of Divine grace in us. For Paul, as though he had improperly made himself the author of anything good, corrects what he had said, and declares the grace of God ‘to have been the efficient cause of the whole’. Let us not think that there is here a mere pretense of humility. It is in good earnest that he speaks thus, and from knowing that it is so in truth. Let us learn, therefore, that we have nothing that is good, but what the Lord has graciously given us, that we do nothing good but what he worketh in us, (Philippians 2:13) — not that we do thing ourselves, but that we do nothing without being influenced — that is, under the guidance and impulse of the Holy Spirit.

Ultimately…it is our continued faith that brings us the grace that so compels us to walk in His statues and do God’s work. Nobody, in their own flesh observes God’s commandments with the proper motivations. For the New Covenant people of God…

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezekiel 36:26-27 KJV)

And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. (Ezekiel 11:19-20 KJV)

The elect are characterized by works. They must do them - they will do them…they will have faith and continue in faith. They must

 

[Nick_Jones]

I asked:

Would you be willing to provide an example of me twisting your words or those of Scripture?

Oh, I don’t know, us contintually saying we DON’T believe in works of our own accord being GOOD ENOUGH for anything. And you continually saying that we do, and when we deny it AGAIN you saying that our Church does, so we must, and then when we ask you to please cite a source saying that the Church believes that you just repeat the same thing over and over and over. How’s that?

It isn’t that I’m twisting your words. I’m just showing you that your whole emphasis is on what sinners need to do for their own salvation.

By contrast, I’m saying exactly what Jesus said about trying to be good enough to enter the kingdom by our own good works:

“With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

 

[Nick_Jones]

So you’re saying that God’s grace, without you even being saved yet, is sufficient to bring about an action in you? What an amazing concept!!

It isn’t an amazing concept for those who read the bible.

Rom. 9:14-21
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

 

[Nick_Jones]

According to YOU that’s not something He did in you, that’s something He did TO you.

True. Although God continues to work in me for His glory, I was saved by grace, through faith in Jesus, which is something that God did TO me.

Titus 3:5
“he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit…”

 

[Nick_Jones]

.

Actually, all details leave the sinner very much cause for boasting, not for ourselves, but for God. So God brought about an action in you through His grace to 1:save you, and 2:show the world what He did and bring more people to Him. That’s a pretty amazing concept too. You just think that God’s grace is limited to the act of believing, and nothing else.

No, as I’ve been saying, when the Holy Spirit brings a person to repentance (by regeneration–being born of the Spirit), the newly saved person will begin to change as he or she starts to live by faith. This inward change affects the whole person–the thoughts, attitudes, priorities, and the deeds. I’m not saying that a saved person stops sinning. But when God makes a bad tree good, the good tree will begin to bear good fruit.

 

[Nick_Jones]

You CAN’T give to the poor? You’re not capable of doing that? You may not want to, and God may not require it of you, but you can’t?

You might be misunderstanding the point of that story. The rich man wanted to know WHAT HE COULD DO to get into heaven.

“Good teacher”, he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

If no one is good except God alone, then no one keeps all the commandments, for if we were good then we certainly COULD and WOULD keep ALL of them. All of us have some weakness in our flesh where sin will take root.

You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother."

“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

The rich man was self deceived. He viewed himself as righteous–an obedient man.

Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Jesus lovingly points out that he was not the righteous sort of man he thought he was, for he had an unhealthy attachment to his money–if money gets in the way of our walk with God, then in some sense money has become our god.

At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

The rich man went away sad because he realized that money was of such importance to him. He went away from Jesus, but he couldn’t separate himself from his money. The result brings sadness. The rich man knew that he wasn’t nearly as good as he had thought.

Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

It is infinitely better to be poor if wealth should ever become more important to us than following Jesus.

The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

It is hard for anyone (not only the rich) to enter the kingdom of God. But it is especially hard for the rich.

The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”

If these words are true (how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!) then it is not only the rich who might struggle, all of us might find salvation elusive–“Who then can be saved”?

Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

Finally, the question asked by the rich man is answered. Man can do nothing to save himself. “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.” The sinfulness of mankind prevents us from DOING what we must do…thus our need for the mercy of God through Jesus.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Whether you realize it or not, Nick, you really are very close to what the Catholic Church teaches.

The difference seems to be from the rejection of “infused righteousness” in favor of “imputed righteousness.”

Hi Chris,

Yes, my interpretation of the bible is that the reason for the creation of the universe is God’s glory, not the glory of mankind. In the work of salvation, God reveals our unrighteousness (our inability to cooperate with God due to our wickedness) and His wonderful mercy to those that He has chosen for adoption because of His goodness and mercy.

This is perfectly understandable given the common Protestant view of salvation as an instant “one-time” event. If it were, then it certainly would follow that we must be instantly perfected as well, & since we don’t instantly become perfect when we are “saved”, then we must be simply credited as righteous right then, & finally be made righteous once we enter heaven.

What God calls “righteous” must be righteous in His sight. It is not possible for God to lie, or to be mistaken. We ought to be careful not to disagree with God in the least when He declares a person righteous.

That does make sense. However, according to both the Bible & the Catholic Church, salvation is really a process.

We must be found perfectly righteous to be saved. The bible tells us that this perfect righteousness comes from God and does not reside within ourselves and it is credited to us on the basis of faith in God, not by our obedience or by our cooperation with His commands, for all of us are sinners. By definition sinners are not people who cooperate with God; sinners are people that do not cooperate with God.

We are made perfect & righteous, but not instantly. Like salvation, it is a process which only begins when we receive God’s grace & start to turn to Him. It is not & cannot be completed until the final resurrection with Him in heaven.

God is both willing and able to make a sinner perfectly righteous in an instant. One of the two criminals crucified along with Jesus was made perfect (by grace through faith in Christ) right there on the cross, and the tax collector in Luke 18:9-14 likewise “went home justified” by grace through faith.

 

[Nick_Jones]

The Catholic Church teaches exactly what this passage states, as is reinforced by the rest of scripture. Specifically, that we are saved by God’s grace alone (Eph. 2:5).

Right. And if by grace, then it is not by our works. Why? Because the meaning of “grace” (given for free, as in a gift) excludes our own works in salvation. What is given as a free gift cannot be earned by anything that we do. Whatever good works are done by saved people are the fruit of salvation, not any part of the cause of salvation.

The Bible shows plainly, as the Catholic Church teaches, that both faith & works are required for our ultimate salvation, but neither is sufficient alone, nor do either originate with ourselves, but by God’s grace.

This is nothing else but trying to mix our own efforts–our works, with God’s FREE GIFT of salvation. It is the total nullification of grace, for it is the rejection of free salvation and the insistence on earned salvation. It comes from the hearts of people who believe that fallen human beings are actually capable of cooperation with God…even unto salvation. It is humanism, faith in the inherent goodness of fallen mankind. A complete denial of the gospel, which is that we are all sinners who can do NOTHING to save ourselves. We need God’s grace and His mercy, which He gives freely to those that He has chosen for salvation.

 

[jimmy]

I asked:

It isn’t that I’m twisting your words. I’m just showing you that your whole emphasis is on what sinners need to do for their own salvation.

By contrast, I’m saying exactly what Jesus said about trying to be good enough to enter the kingdom by our own good works:

“With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

Actually you are twisting our words. Whether you realize it or not that is what you are doing.

 

[Odell]

Nick Jones

Would you kindly let us know what your definition is of living by the Spirit?

 

[guanophore]

It isn’t that I’m twisting your words. I’m just showing you that your whole emphasis is on what sinners need to do for their own salvation.

I don’t think this is the case. Just because Catholics believe that we must act does not mean the “emphasis” is on man. Unless a man acts in, with, and through Christ, none of his actions will be effectual.

By contrast, I'm saying exactly what Jesus said about trying to be good enough to enter the kingdom by our own good works:

“With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

Do you really believe that the Catholic Church teaches that men can be saved by trying to be “good enough through their own works”?

If you do believe this, where are you getting it?

No, as I’ve been saying, when the Holy Spirit brings a person to repentance (by regeneration–being born of the Spirit), the newly saved person will begin to change as he or she starts to live by faith. This inward change affects the whole person–the thoughts, attitudes, priorities, and the deeds. I’m not saying that a saved person stops sinning. But when God makes a bad tree good, the good tree will begin to bear good fruit.

Do you believe this happens apart from any effort or act of the will on the part of a person?

misunderstanding the point of that story. The rich man wanted to know WHAT HE COULD DO to get into heaven.

You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother."

“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

The rich man was self deceived. He viewed himself as righteous–an obedient man.

Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Jesus lovingly points out that he was not the righteous sort of man he thought he was, for he had an unhealthy attachment to his money–if money gets in the way of our walk with God, then in some sense money has become our god.

At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

The rich man went away sad because he realized that money was of such importance to him. He went away from Jesus, but he couldn’t separate himself from his money. The result brings sadness. The rich man knew that he wasn’t nearly as good as he had thought.

Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

It is infinitely better to be poor if wealth should ever become more important to us than following Jesus.

The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

It is hard for anyone (not only the rich) to enter the kingdom of God. But it is especially hard for the rich.

The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”

If these words are true (how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!) then it is not only the rich who might struggle, all of us might find salvation elusive–“Who then can be saved”?

Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”

Finally, the question asked by the rich man is answered. Man can do nothing to save himself. “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.” The sinfulness of mankind prevents us from DOING what we must do…thus our need for the mercy of God through Jesus.

But Jesus did say that one can enter the kingdom by obeying all the commandments, did He not? He did not disagree with the man, but pointed out one thing that was lacking. If the man had taken that step in faith, sold all that he had, and followed Jesus, he would have found eternal life. This is an action the man would have had to do - a work.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Actually you are twisting our words. Whether you realize it or not that is what you are doing.

Since we have exactly the opposite view concerning the nature of God and His purpose in creation, it seems to you as though I’m twisting your words: the creation of the entire universe is for GOD’S GLORY, and not for the glory of mankind.

Since we have the opposite focus concerning what (or who) is good and what (who) is not good, you might view my words as “twisting” your words: You seem to have your entire focus for your salvation on your own supposed goodness–the good that YOU MUST DO, while I remain completely focused on the goodness and mercy of God, and what Jesus already HAS DONE that has saved me.

 

[Angainor]

If you have fallen into a ditch and cannot get out without the help of someone else, and someone comes along and pulls you out. What prevents you from falling into the same or different ditch?

Jesus came to save people from the ditch. Through the spilling of his blood, Jesus rescues us from the ditch. You can be assured that when Jesus rescues someone from the ditch, they are rescued from the ditch.

That is the good news. Though we have fallen into a ditch, Jesus’ work on the cross brings our rescue to completeness. Jesus’ rescue is complete.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Nick Jones

Would you kindly let us know what your definition is of living by the Spirit?

To live according to the Spirit is to place no confidence–no faith, in our own flesh, but instead to live by faith in the perfect obedience of Christ, who is our righteousness. Those who live in their own flesh want to satisfy their fleshly desires. Those who live according to the Spirit are focused on the Spirit.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Do you really believe that the Catholic Church teaches that men can be saved by trying to be “good enough through their own works”?

If you do believe this, where are you getting it?

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

 

[Nick_Jones]

I don’t think this is the case. Just because Catholics believe that we must act does not mean the “emphasis” is on man. Unless a man acts in, with, and through Christ, none of his actions will be effectual.

If we’re discussing what it is that makes a person righteous before God and thereby saves his soul, then there are two incompatible and conflicting views of God, man, and salvation:

1. Mankind is fallen and incapable of doing anything to save himself. Because we are fallen, our will is directed away from God and is focused primarily on pleasing ourselves.
2. Mankind only “stumbled” but didn’t actually FALL. We are still very capable of using our “free” will to want what is truly good (we can, by our free will, WANT to accept Jesus) and we CAN cooperate with the grace of God…even unto salvation.

 

[guanophore]

What God calls “righteous” must be righteous in His sight. It is not possible for God to lie, or to be mistaken. We ought to be careful not to disagree with God in the least when He declares a person righteous.

I agree with you 100%. This is why I cannot understand why people say that Rom. 3:23 applies to everyone.

Luke 1:5-6
5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

How can they be righteous before God, and blameless, but still in sin?

We must be found perfectly righteous to be saved. The bible tells us that this perfect righteousness comes from God and does not reside within ourselves and it is credited to us on the basis of faith in God, not by our obedience or by our cooperation with His commands, for all of us are sinners. By definition sinners are not people who cooperate with God; sinners are people that do not cooperate with God.

I agree with this too. This is why I dont understand why you keep calling yourself a sinner.

God is both willing and able to make a sinner perfectly righteous in an instant. One of the two criminals crucified along with Jesus was made perfect (by grace through faith in Christ) right there on the cross, and the tax collector in Luke 18:9-14 likewise “went home justified” by grace through faith.

This is very Catholic.

 

[Lampo]

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

What is your understanding of “anathema” Mr. Jones?

 

[guanophore]

Right. And if by grace, then it is not by our works. Why? Because the meaning of “grace” (given for free, as in a gift) excludes our own works in salvation. What is given as a free gift cannot be earned by anything that we do. Whatever good works are done by saved people are the fruit of salvation, not any part of the cause of salvation.

I think Catholics just have a different conception of salvation. Instead of seeing it as one event that happens at one point in time, we consider that it begins when we are declared justified, then continues until we reach the pearly gates. When considered this way (sanctification is not separated from justification) it makes more sense how we must “work out” our salvation.

This is nothing else but trying to mix our own efforts–our works, with God’s FREE GIFT of salvation. It is the total nullification of grace, for it is the rejection of free salvation and the insistence on earned salvation. It comes from the hearts of people who believe that fallen human beings are actually capable of cooperation with God…even unto salvation.

It comes from a different understanding of what it means to be “fallen”. We consider that humankind is “wounded” by sin, not “totally depraved”. We believe that the image and likeness of God in which we are made is not obliterated by original sin. We believe it is incumbent upon us to cooperate with God. We are saved by grace, through faith, SO THAT we can do the works he has prepared for us. We don’t, however, think salvation can be earned. We believe we must bear fruit that befits repentance.

It is humanism, faith in the inherent goodness of fallen mankind. A complete denial of the gospel, which is that we are all sinners who can do NOTHING to save ourselves. We need God’s grace and His mercy, which He gives freely to those that He has chosen for salvation.

Not really. It is recognition that we are made in the image and likeness of God, and that once we are in His grace, we are capable of acting in the way in which He intended.

Since we have exactly the opposite view concerning the nature of God and His purpose in creation, it seems to you as though I’m twisting your words: the creation of the entire universe is for GOD’S GLORY, and not for the glory of mankind.

As far as the nature of God, this may be. Catholics believe that part of what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God means having choice. If you don’t agree with this, then we do have a different image of God. I don’t think it is entirely opposite. It is just that we believe that God intends to glorify Himself through us. Man is an integral part of how He intends to glorify Himself through creation.

Since we have the opposite focus concerning what (or who) is good and what (who) is not good, you might view my words as “twisting” your words: You seem to have your entire focus for your salvation on your own supposed goodness–the good that YOU MUST DO, while I remain completely focused on the goodness and mercy of God, and what Jesus already HAS DONE that has saved me.

Well, consider this. People are responsible for themselves. We are not responsible for what God does. As you pointed out, He has mercy upon whom He has mercy. It is to ourselves that we must look and consider our own conduct in His sight.

Jesus came to save people from the ditch. Through the spilling of his blood, Jesus rescues us from the ditch. You can be assured that when Jesus rescues someone from the ditch, they are rescued from the ditch.

That is the good news. Though we have fallen into a ditch, Jesus’ work on the cross brings our rescue to completeness. Jesus’ rescue is complete.

I agree with you entirely. But, do you imagine that it is not possible for a man to fall back into the ditch, or deliberately jump?

 

[Lampo]

CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

Nick…I think you need to learn what “anathema” means. This should help.

The absurdity of the things said by anti-Catholics about the anathemas pronounced by Trent and other councils is plain. A number of errors are nearly ubiquitous in anti-Catholic writings:

1. An anathema sentenced a person to hell. This is not the case. Sentencing someone to hell is a power that is God’s alone, and the Church cannot exercise it.
2. *An anathema was a sure sign that a person would go to hell. *Again, not true. Anathemas were only warranted by very grave sins, but there was no reason why the offender could not repent, and those who repent aren’t damned.
3. An anathema was a sure sign that a person was not in a state of grace. This is not true for two reasons: (a) The person may have repented since the time the anathema was issued, and (b) the person may not have been in a state of mortal sin at the time the anathema was issued.

Anathemas—like penalties imposed under civil law—rest on the judgment of the court, which must make its decision based on the evidence presented. It cannot directly examine the conscience of the individual in question. Thus, while anathemas were imposed on account of gravely sinful behavior, this was not a guarantee that it was mortally sinful. For a grave sin to become mortal, it must be performed with the requisite knowledge and consent, and while an offender might have given every appearance of these conditions, they might not be there in reality—e.g., through a hidden cognitive or volitional impediment.

1. Anathemas were meant to harm the offender. No. Anathemas were simply a major excommunication performed with a special papal ceremony, and, like all excommunications, their intent was medicinal, not punitive. The goal was to protect the Christian community from the spread of evil doctrines or behaviors and to prompt the individual to recognize the nature of his actions. While being deprived of the fellowship of the Church is not pleasant, this does not change the fact that the fundamental orientation of excommunications and anathemas is medicinal, not punitive.