Salvation

[oneseeker]

well, since I was informed that I hadn’t posted in a while, I figured I should get busy! This is my fourth post today.

While I am still studying, and may be getting this wrong, salvation in the RCA church seems so much more sure than in the RC church. I realize that RC’s say we can’t “work our way” to salvation, and yet on the other hand, I hear that it is possible to lost your salvation if you turn from God, and that OSAS is evil.

I’m currently reading a John Salza book, and he even says that good works don’t just flow from a Christian to prove that they are living a Christian life, but good works have salvific importance. Even though these are works done in and b/c of the grace of God, they are still works.

One post I read said something to the effect of “I hope I get to heaven” and that made me sad. Doesnt’ John 5:13 say that he taught what he taught to let us know what we need to be saved? Should there be such a question, or a disconnect between us here on earth and the Lord?

oneseeker

 

[davidv]

well, since I was informed that I hadn’t posted in a while, I figured I should get busy! This is my fourth post today.

While I am still studying, and may be getting this wrong, salvation in the RCA church seems so much more sure than in the RC church. I realize that RC’s say we can’t “work our way” to salvation, and yet on the other hand, I hear that it is possible to lost your salvation if you turn from God, and that OSAS is evil.

I’m currently reading a John Salza book, and he even says that good works don’t just flow from a Christian to prove that they are living a Christian life, but good works have salvific importance. Even though these are works done in and b/c of the grace of God, they are still works.

One post I read said something to the effect of “I hope I get to heaven” and that made me sad. Doesnt’ John 5:13 say that he taught what he taught to let us know what we need to be saved? Should there be such a question, or a disconnect between us here on earth and the Lord?

oneseeker

If you have fallen into a ditch and cannot get out without the help of someone else, and someone comes along and pulls you out. What prevents you from falling into the same or different ditch? Our Church instructs us that if we want to remain out of the ditch (in sin) we must obey Jesus’ command to love one another.

 

[jimmy]

well, since I was informed that I hadn’t posted in a while, I figured I should get busy! This is my fourth post today.

While I am still studying, and may be getting this wrong, salvation in the RCA church seems so much more sure than in the RC church. I realize that RC’s say we can’t “work our way” to salvation, and yet on the other hand, I hear that it is possible to lost your salvation if you turn from God, and that OSAS is evil.

I’m currently reading a John Salza book, and he even says that good works don’t just flow from a Christian to prove that they are living a Christian life, but good works have salvific importance. Even though these are works done in and b/c of the grace of God, they are still works.

One post I read said something to the effect of “I hope I get to heaven” and that made me sad. Doesnt’ John 5:13 say that he taught what he taught to let us know what we need to be saved? Should there be such a question, or a disconnect between us here on earth and the Lord?

oneseeker

The Catholic Church makes the point that you must have both faith and works to recieve salvation. The essence of this idea is not that you must do certain things to recieve salvation, but that you must have love. The only work which matters is love. Christ left us one commandment and that is to love as He has loved us. That love is the result of faith. The more your faith in Christ increases; the more your faith in the resurrection increases the more you will love. Perfect love is the result of a faith that Christ is merciful. Read John’s gospel and epistles and you will get a good grasp of the importance of love.

We believe you can lose your salvation because you always have the free will to reject Christ. We can hope in the mercy of God though because as the scriptures say, ‘His steadfast mercy endures forever.’

 

[Nick_Jones]

If you have fallen into a ditch and cannot get out without the help of someone else, and someone comes along and pulls you out. What prevents you from falling into the same or different ditch? Our Church instructs us that if we want to remain out of the ditch (in sin) we must obey Jesus’ command to love one another.

If we can “obey” our way out of sin and into righteousness, doesn’t this make us our own saviors? Isn’t this living under the law and not under grace?

 

[jimmy]

If we can “obey” our way out of sin and into righteousness, doesn’t this make us our own saviors? Isn’t this living under the law and not under grace?

I think what you say here is wrong for a couple reasons. First, I think that ‘obey our way out of sin into righteousness’ is a distortion of Catholic teaching. The base of Catholic teaching is that Christ died for our sins and has mercy on us. So obedience is not a way out of sin into righteousness. It is a way of avoiding the sin and more importantly, loving Christ. As Christ says, those who love Him will follow His commandments(Read John’s gospel chapters 13 to 17). Without love, there is no salvation.

Second, Christ saved us from our sins for the sake of the love of God. We have been set free from our sins that we might enter into communion with God. That communion is a communion of love. As John says, God is love so if you do not love then you do not know God. This love is an element of our free will. We always make the choice to love our neighbor and God.

We do live under a law. We live under the law of charity. As Christ said, He gave us one commandment, to love eachother as He has loved us.

 

[Nick_Jones]

The Catholic Church makes the point that you must have both faith and works to recieve salvation.

The bible says, “not by works.” And James explains that the kind of faith that saves is demonstrated through our deeds. But most RC’s wrongly read into this that good deeds are required for salvation–that faith (given by God’s grace) is not sufficient for salvation! What do you think “not by works” means in Eph. 2:8-9?

The essence of this idea is not that you must do certain things to recieve salvation, but that you must have love.

Everyone loves someone or something but only God loves us perfectly and faithfully in spite of all of our sins.

The only work which matters is love. Christ left us one commandment and that is to love as He has loved us. That love is the result of faith. The more your faith in Christ increases; the more your faith in the resurrection increases the more you will love. Perfect love is the result of a faith that Christ is merciful. Read John’s gospel and epistles and you will get a good grasp of the importance of love.

We believe you can lose your salvation because you always have the free will to reject Christ. We can hope in the mercy of God though because as the scriptures say, ‘His steadfast mercy endures forever.’

ISTM that only God loves perfectly. Not one of us will (in this life) ever love others faithfully enough to please God…even unto salvation. In the end, it all depends upon faith in God’s loving goodness and on His mercy. That is the faith that saves.

 

[jimmy]

The bible says, “not by works.” And James explains that the kind of faith that saves is demonstrated through our deeds. But most RC’s wrongly read into this that good deeds are required for salvation–that faith (given by God’s grace) is not sufficient for salvation! What do you think “not by works” means in Eph. 2:8-9?

And as James says(even though you think it is reading into the text it is not), You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

So it seems that Paul contradicts James. But that is impossible. Protestants tend to misinterpret Paul and think he beleives in a faith alone/OSAS gospel but the fact is that what Paul is preaching against is the Judaisers. He spends a large portion of his epistles writing against the Judaizers who preached that the law was necessary. That it was necessary to do the works of the law. But the fact is that according to Paul even, faith alone is meaningless. As Paul says, if I have faith to move mountains but have not love I am nothing. Love is the essence of salvation. And Grace, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is the foundation of all love.

Everyone loves someone or something but only God loves us perfectly and faithfully in spite of all of our sins.

Yes, but as mentioned God’s Grace is the foundation of love and God’s Grace is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. So it is very possible for man. And John supports this when he implies that man can obtain perfect love. As He says, perfect love casts out fear. The one who fears is not made perfect in love(1John4).

So this perfect love is our objective. As Christ says, be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[guanophore]

well, since I was informed that I hadn’t posted in a while, I figured I should get busy! This is my fourth post today.

Thanks!

While I am still studying, and may be getting this wrong, salvation in the RCA church seems so much more sure than in the RC church. I realize that RC’s say we can’t “work our way” to salvation, and yet on the other hand, I hear that it is possible to lost your salvation if you turn from God, and that OSAS is evil.

It is not that Catholics think salvation can be “lost” per se. We just don’t presume to have attained it yet.

" Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained. Phil 3:12-16

We focus on making it our own, rather than presuming that we posess it already.

Even though these are works done in and b/c of the grace of God, they are still works.

A distinction must be made between works of the flesh,and Sacred Works.

One post I read said something to the effect of “I hope I get to heaven” and that made me sad. Doesnt’ John 5:13 say that he taught what he taught to let us know what we need to be saved? Should there be such a question, or a disconnect between us here on earth and the Lord?

oneseeker

Why would that make you sad? Hope does not disappoint us!

13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. Rom 15:13

 

[jimmy]

ISTM that only God loves perfectly. Not one of us will (in this life) ever love others faithfully enough to please God…even unto salvation. In the end, it all depends upon faith in God’s loving goodness and on His mercy. That is the faith that saves.

I would just like to say that I think it isn’t an accurate approach to speak of our love fullfilling God’s requirements. We are to love God not because of how it will affect our salvation but because of God is our creator but more so because of His steadfast mercy.

Further, as the scriptures say(both Paul and James mention it), God has prepared heavenly salvation for those who love Him. It is not simply those who have faith but those who love God.

 

[Nick_Jones]

And as James says(even though you think it is reading into the text it is not), You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

A person is justified in claiming to have saving faith by demonstrating the willingness to help others. This has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of justification. If it did, then James would be teaching that a man is justified (made righteous) by what he does…in direct conflict with Paul, who tells us that we are NOT justified by our works:

Rom. 4:1-6
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works…

So it seems that Paul contradicts James. But that is impossible. Protestants tend to misinterpret Paul and think he beleives in a faith alone/OSAS gospel but the fact is that what Paul is preaching against is the Judaisers. He spends a large portion of his epistles writing against the Judaizers who preached that the law was necessary. That it was necessary to do the works of the law. But the fact is that according to Paul even, faith alone is meaningless. As Paul says, if I have faith to move mountains but have not love I am nothing. Love is the essence of salvation. And Grace, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is the foundation of all love.

If it is Rome’s teaching that for salvation to be possible, we have to demonstrate our love sufficiently by doing enough good works, or by doing good works in a sufficiently loving way, then the RCC has become Judaisers of the NT teachings on the importance of love for each other. Love, and the loving deeds that show love, by their very nature cannot be legislated into anyone. Love comes from the heart, not from the law.

 

[JRKH]

well, since I was informed that I hadn’t posted in a while, I figured I should get busy! This is my fourth post today.

While I am still studying, and may be getting this wrong, salvation in the RCA church seems so much more sure than in the RC church. I realize that RC’s say we can’t “work our way” to salvation, and yet on the other hand, I hear that it is possible to lost your salvation if you turn from God, and that OSAS is evil.

I’m currently reading a John Salza book, and he even says that good works don’t just flow from a Christian to prove that they are living a Christian life, but good works have salvific importance. Even though these are works done in and b/c of the grace of God, they are still works.

One post I read said something to the effect of “I hope I get to heaven” and that made me sad. Doesnt’ John 5:13 say that he taught what he taught to let us know what we need to be saved? Should there be such a question, or a disconnect between us here on earth and the Lord?

oneseeker

Just a couple of random points

Jesus says somewhere in the Gospels to do all that we can, and all that is expected of us and then to call ourselves poor servants because we have only done our duty.

The whole issue of Grace and works salvation misses a larger picture of Christ’s saving mission. They are the trees by which we miss the forest, so to speak. Before the fall, God walked with Adam in Eden. After the fall, God withdrew because Adam had refused his company by disobedience. Jesus came to us to repair the damage done by the fall of Adam.To restore Man to God. This is why Jesus is sometimes refered to as the New Adam.

Adam’s fall came because he was unable to resist temptation. Jesus succeeded because he was able to resist the temptations of the world. Why was Jesus successful in resisting? Because he walked with God. Not that he was God, though surely we accept that he was, but because He, as a man, walked with God and would not permit the world to seperate him from God.
When we choose to walk with God, in the full and complete way of Jesus, then God walks with us providing us with Grace.

Because of this communion between ourselves and God, through the example of Jesus, we must perform works. We must bear fruit. We must bear the fruit of The Spirit. We must. Not because we are trying to get to heaven, but because the grace of God compels us to perform works.

Jesus always was pushing His diciples to do more, to give up more, to loose their connection to the worldly so they could walk more fully with the Father. This is what we must do also.

And then we must say of ourselves that we are but poor servants for we have done no more than our duty.

Peace
James

 

[bookgirl32]

If it is Rome’s teaching that for salvation to be possible, we have to demonstrate our love sufficiently by doing enough good works, or by doing good works in a sufficiently loving way, then the RCC has become Judaisers of the NT teachings on the importance of love for each other. Love, and the loving deeds that show love, by their very nature cannot be legislated into anyone. Love comes from the heart, not from the law.

I wish you’d really read what the other posters are writing, not what you want them to be writing. No one said anything about demonstrating our love SUFFICIENTLY, you did. That one word changes the Church’s doctrine into exactly what you want it to be for us to be wrong. But that’s not what anyone, or the Church, said. Read, and listen, don’t just desire to be correct.

 

[jackjones]

Hello one seeker. To me, the new covenant has been erected by God and not man Hebrews 8:2… God has made a way for sinful men to be saved. The knowledge of one being saved before they die is evident. Romans 1:16-17 For i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the jew first and also for the greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, The just shall live by faith… What makes a sinner just in Gods eyes. for everyone who believes reveals the power of salvation. what must i do to be saved ? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you Will be saved Acts 8:37 16:30… Acts 13:39 and by Him, everyone who believes is justified from all things which you could not be justified by the law of Moes.
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy (perfect) calling not according to our works, but according to HIS own purpose and Grace (Eph 2:8) which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began 2 tim Listen, 2:13 If we are faithless, he remains faithful, He Cannot deny himself (Gal 2:20) 1 Cor 3:16 do you not know that you ARE the temple of God and that the Spirit of god dwells in you… 1 Peter 1:22-23 Since you HAVE purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren , love one another with a pure heart, having been born again (john 3:3) not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word (Jesus john 1:1) of God which lives and abides forever. (Gal 2:20 1 Cor 3:16 in US) Jude 1:1 preserved in Jesus Christ… Before time Began John 17:9 I do not pray for the world, but those whom you HAVE given me. 17:3 and this is eternal life that they may know you the one and only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent… 1 John 5:13 these things have i written to you who BELIEVE in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you HAVE eternal life and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God… Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 2:12 work out your salvation, not work for it… 4:3 and the rest of my fellow workers whose names ARE in the BOOK OF LIFE. amen… You are complete in Him Colossians 2:10 … Perfect love casts out all fear, especially whether or not you are going to heaven or hell…

 

[bookgirl32]

Okay, I get really frustrated with this topic sometimes. Why is performing (or not omitting) the works any different than the HUMAN action of accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, believing in your heart, having faith, etc.? Those are all actions on the part of a human that a human does of their own free will that according to bible Christians HAVE to happen in order for them to be saved. They don’t have to happen sufficiently, they don’t have to happen in a particular place, whatever. But they do have to happen, the action matters, it is the catalyst. That’s all we’re saying about works, they need to happen, there’s a list out there called the ten commandments, plus one more instituted by Jesus, that we are commanded to DO OR NOT DO. They don’t say “how well” or “how much”, just that the effort needs to be made out of a love for God. To show Him, not just tell Him, that we love Him and believe in Him. Believing in the “how much” or “how well” is what Paul is warning against, b/c he doesn’t want anyone to think that they are performing the works out of their own strength or grace. The Church warns AGAINST this as well.

 

[bookgirl32]

Okay Jack:

John 5:13 these things have i written to you who BELIEVE in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you HAVE eternal life and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God…

Every soul has eternal life, you live eternally in Hell. That’s why John is saying that you may CONTINUE to believe. If only one thing matters, at only one moment, then what’s the continue for? If someone stops believing does that mean that they never did? That’s not possible? Or are you saying that someone has to believe “enough”, which would be of their own merit?

2:12 work out your salvation, not work for it…

Explain to me what the difference is please.

especially whether or not you are going to heaven or hell…

What verse is that?

 

[jackjones]

Okay, I get really frustrated with this topic sometimes. Why is performing (or not omitting) the works any different than the HUMAN action of accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, believing in your heart, having faith, etc.? Those are all actions on the part of a human that a human does of their own free will that according to bible Christians HAVE to happen in order for them to be saved. They don’t have to happen sufficiently, they don’t have to happen in a particular place, whatever. But they do have to happen, the action matters, it is the catalyst. That’s all we’re saying about works, they need to happen, there’s a list out there called the ten commandments, plus one more instituted by Jesus, that we are commanded to DO OR NOT DO. They don’t say “how well” or “how much”, just that the effort needs to be made out of a love for God. To show Him, not just tell Him, that we love Him and believe in Him. Believing in the “how much” or “how well” is what Paul is warning against, b/c he doesn’t want anyone to think that they are performing the works out of their own strength or grace. The Church warns AGAINST this as well.

Romans 1:17
The righteousness of God is Gods way of justifying sinners, that is, putting them right with himself without compromising His absolutely pure character. As it is written Hab 2:4 (Romans 10:9-10) people were not saved by works or obedience to the law in the OT anymore than the NT, in the OT people put faith in the Messiah who was yet to come. John 8:56 Heb 11:13

The righteousness of God refers to the perfect standing which God provides for those who believe on his Son, (2 Cor 5:21)
those who are not themselves righteous are treated as if they were righteous because God sees them in all the prefection of Christ. righteousness is imputed to their account. rom 1:17 From faith to faith, the expression from faith to faith may mean (a) from Gods faithfulness to our faith (b) from one degree of faith to another (c) by faith from start to finish. The last is the probable meaning. Gods righteousnessis is not imputed on the basis of works or made available to those who seek to earn or deserve it. it is revealed on the principle of faith only. Hab 2:4 (The justified by faith ones shall live)

 

[bookgirl32]

The righteousness of God is Gods way of justifying sinners, that is, putting them right with himself without compromising His absolutely pure character.

This is obviously an interpretation of the scripture, by whose authority can you assure me that this is a correct interpretation?

As it is written Hab 2:4

This doesn’t say the righteous are saved by their faith, but shall live by their faith. In this book the Lord seems to be telling Habakkuk how NOT to live, as in not living by faith. Why does the word “live” to you automatically mean “to be saved”? It could very well be the WAY we live. God’s many warnings about how NOT to live which come later in chapter 2 would seem to support this.

As far as Romans 10:9-10, what about Romans 2:2-8? ESPECIALLY 2:6? And what about Romans 13? ESPECIALLY the end of verse 11? Is Paul contradicting himself here? How do you reconcile these verses to 10:9-10? If you don’t believe that scripture can contradict itself, which I know you don’t, then explain what he means in those verses.

The righteousness of God refers to the perfect standing which God provides for those who believe on his Son, (2 Cor 5:21)
those who are not themselves righteous are treated as if they were righteous because God sees them in all the prefection of Christ. righteousness is imputed to their account.

As for what’s in bold, again an interpretation, by whose authority? As for the verse, it doesn’t say anything in THAT verse about believing (I’m NOT saying we don’t have to believe here, so don’t get that out of it please). It just says why God made His Son and what for, not how.

rom 1:17 From faith to faith, the expression from faith to faith may mean (a) from Gods faithfulness to our faith (b) from one degree of faith to another (c) by faith from start to finish. The last is the probable meaning. Gods righteousnessis is not imputed on the basis of works or made available to those who seek to earn or deserve it. it is revealed on the principle of faith only. Hab 2:4 (The justified by faith ones shall live)

By the “last being the probable meaning” do you mean that the meaning you’re getting might not be true?

By faith for faith to me would be exactly what it says, by our faith for our faith. God gives us grace because we have faith, in order to hold fast in our faith. I’m not arguing that we don’t need faith.

To the last PART of the statement that I put in bold I want to know who you’re trying to speak to here, because that’s not something the Church teaches.

 

[bookgirl32]

If we can “obey” our way out of sin and into righteousness, doesn’t this make us our own saviors? Isn’t this living under the law and not under grace?

We’re obeying through the grace God gives us, not of our own strength. The confusing thing here is that it’s in the choice to obey, to cooperate with that grace, not in how well we do it. It’s just like making the choice to believe.

 

[bookgirl32]

If we can “obey” our way out of sin and into righteousness, doesn’t this make us our own saviors? Isn’t this living under the law and not under grace?

Sorry, one more thing: Is choosing to cooperate with the grace we received through faith making us “our own saviors” anymore than choosing to believe in the first place? They’re both our actions.

 

[guanophore]

A person is justified in claiming to have saving faith by demonstrating the willingness to help others. This has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of justification. If it did, then James would be teaching that a man is justified (made righteous) by what he does…in direct conflict with Paul, who tells us that we are NOT justified by our works:

Rom. 4:1-6
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works…

If it is Rome’s teaching that for salvation to be possible, we have to demonstrate our love sufficiently by doing enough good works, or by doing good works in a sufficiently loving way, then the RCC has become Judaisers of the NT teachings on the importance of love for each other. Love, and the loving deeds that show love, by their very nature cannot be legislated into anyone. Love comes from the heart, not from the law.

Please show where this is taught in the documents of the Catholic Church. If you cannot do that, then you are either pandering lies that you have been taught about the Catholic faith, or guitly of bearing false witness against your neighbor.

The Catholic Church teaches that a person is saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast. There is indeed a “law” of love, and if you are so mislead as to think that loving others is not very hard work at times, and goes against ones “feelings” then you are sadly mistaken.