Salvation

[bookgirl32]

Please show where this is taught in the documents of the Catholic Church. If you cannot do that, then you are either pandering lies that you have been taught about the Catholic faith, or guitly of bearing false witness against your neighbor.

The Catholic Church teaches that a person is saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast. There is indeed a “law” of love, and if you are so mislead as to think that loving others is not very hard work at times, and goes against ones “feelings” then you are sadly mistaken.

Guanophore, I don’t think Nick is claiming the Catholic Church teaches what he’s saying, I think he’s disagreeing with the church as far as some aspects of salvation go. Nick, correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[bookgirl32]

Okay duh, you’re saying what I was saying, I’m in too much of an internet coma right now.

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore, I don’t think Nick is claiming the Catholic Church teaches what he’s saying, I think he’s disagreeing with the church as far as some aspects of salvation go. Nick, correct me if I’m wrong.

I have run into Nick on some other threads, and this is not his first instance of misrepresenting Catholic Doctrine. He likes to take the opportunity to criticize and find fault with what he has been told is Catholic.

 

[bookgirl32]

I have run into Nick on some other threads, and this is not his first instance of misrepresenting Catholic Doctrine. He likes to take the opportunity to criticize and find fault with what he has been told is Catholic.

Sorry about that, I read your post wrong.

 

[jimmy]

A person is justified in claiming to have saving faith by demonstrating the willingness to help others. This has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of justification. If it did, then James would be teaching that a man is justified (made righteous) by what he does…in direct conflict with Paul, who tells us that we are NOT justified by our works:

There is a problem when you elevate Paul’s words above those of the rest of the NT. Paul is not the standard. Christ is the truth and Christ did not teach a faith alone gospel. As Christ says in Matt.25, those who feed Him when He is hungry and those who give Him water when He is thirst are welcome into His kingdom. Those who do not are not welcomed in. And those who are sent away will say, have we not prophecied in your name(Matt5). And Christ will tell them He never knew them. These men had faith enough to prophecy but they were rejected because they were not righteous.

James’s epistle is just as God breathed as those of Paul. Therefore when James says, you are not justified by faith alone he means exactly what he says. Yes, this has everything to do with the doctrine of justification. James specifically says you are justified by your works.

You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. [James2:24]

Paul doesn’t even teach faith alone. He is the one who specifically says in 1Cor.13 that if I have faith to move mountains but not love I am nothing. Faith is meaningless without love. The only thing it will do is condemn you.

1If I speak in the tonguesa] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Cor13;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28653b”)] but have not love, I gain nothing. [1Cor.13]

If it is Rome’s teaching that for salvation to be possible, we have to demonstrate our love sufficiently by doing enough good works, or by doing good works in a sufficiently loving way, then the RCC has become Judaisers of the NT teachings on the importance of love for each other. Love, and the loving deeds that show love, by their very nature cannot be legislated into anyone. Love comes from the heart, not from the law.

I think that anyone who says that love is not necessary for salvation has rejected John’s writings and consequently their theology has ceased to actually be scriptural.7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John4;&version=31;#fen-NIV-30597b”)] into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice forc] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. [1John4]

 

[jimmy]

Yes, love is the law. Christ is the one who gave this. As He said,

34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." [John13]

9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other. [John15]

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."[John14]

It is clear, Christ has commanded us to love.

 

[JRKH]

Yes, love is the law. Christ is the one who gave this. As He said,

34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." [John13]

9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other. [John15]

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will bec] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."[John14]

It is clear, Christ has commanded us to love.

Thank you!! Thank you!! Thank you!!

These discussions get so tedious with the flashing of verse back and forth. Paul said this - James said that - Romans - Corinthians - onandonandonandon…

Why argue the details laid out in the epistles when we have Jesus own words.
His command is to give up everything, take up our cross and follow Him.
His command is that we Love one another.
His Command is that we Do Unto Others… Unto the Least of our bretheren…

I can see how difficult this is to do sometimes, but really, How difficult is it to understand?

Peace
James

 

[jackjones]

Okay Jack:

Every soul has eternal life, you live eternally in Hell. That’s why John is saying that you may CONTINUE to believe.

((The continuing to believe, is not in regards to ones salvation, but to continue to keep our eyes on Him who is the author and finisher of our faith. Hebrews 12;2… what do you mean by every soul has eternal life, you live eternally in hell ? Do you mean that we will all have eternal life (those who believe in Christ, but to those who do not believe in Christs saving work, they will spend eternity in Hell ? I’d say yes to that…))

If only one thing matters, at only one moment, then what’s the continue for?

((We continue to run the race. This is not reference to salvation, but to keep our eyes on Christ least we backslide, Hebrews 6:6 … Being watchful… John 5:13 i have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God. That you may know that you have eternal life. (And((,) that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God… continual belief in the name of the Son of God was not what was nessessary in receiving the (gift) of eternal life. the scriptures were written for those who had already believed on the name of the lord Jesus Christ that they may have assurance that they are saved. There is no need for groping in the dark here. John clearly states that those who believe may know that they have or possess eternal life. verse 14 Now this is the confidence that we have in him, that if we ask anything according to his will, He hears us… verse 11, And this IS the testimony that God HAS given us eternal life, and this life in His son.

If someone stops believing does that mean that they never did?
(No, because they did believe once already)

That’s not possible?
(Hebrews 6:6) in regard to repentance, not salvation…

Or are you saying that someone has to believe “enough”, which would be of their own merit?
The gift of faith comes from God, not man, Romans 10:17 faith comes by hearing the gospel. romans 1:17 from faith to faith, the faith which Gods gives to us who then believe in the one whom he sent… So faith is a gift, and Gods faith does not become a work, nor the faith we receive from him in order to believe…

Explain to me what the difference is please.

What verse is that?

phippians 2:12 continue to work out Your salvation with fear and trembling… 4:3 Whose names Are written in the book of life… This is a sure thing… Phil 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith…

I hopethis has helped you and others, i have looked into this matter for a long long time. I am reading a book called Once Saved Always Saved by RT Kendall, i would say keep an open mind and press on, and God Bless for now…

 

[Nick_Jones]

Guanophore, I don’t think Nick is claiming the Catholic Church teaches what he’s saying, I think he’s disagreeing with the church as far as some aspects of salvation go. Nick, correct me if I’m wrong.

I was responding to what I thought sounded like an attempt to make salvation contingent upon our demonstrating perfect love to others through our good deeds. It was actually suggested that in this life, we humans might be capable of loving perfectly just as God loves perfectly! It seemed as though that was the position taken by Jimmy in his post (# 7).

 

[Nick_Jones]

We’re obeying through the grace God gives us, not of our own strength. The confusing thing here is that it’s in the choice to obey, to cooperate with that grace, not in how well we do it. It’s just like making the choice to believe.

Are those who use their “free” will to choose to obey and cooperate with grace morally superior to those who use their “free” will to choose NOT to obey and NOT to cooperate with God’s grace? I’m just trying to understand exactly WHERE the two groups differ if not in their own moral goodness. It really seems as though your saying that there are certain morally superior people who will use their “free” will in a morally superior manner…and that by their morally better choices, this morally superior group cooperates and obeys their way into heaven. I might be reading too much into your words, so please correct me if I’ve gotten it all wrong.

 

[jimmy]

I was responding to what I thought sounded like an attempt to make salvation contingent upon our demonstrating perfect love to others through our good deeds. It was actually suggested that in this life, we humans might be capable of loving perfectly just as God loves perfectly! It seemed as though that was the position taken by Jimmy in his post (# 7).

My position is that there is no line which demarcates those who are saved from those who are not in a way that you can say that the person has done this much therefore they are saved or they have this much faith therefore they are saved while those who don’t are damned. We are commanded to love and Christ is clear that those who serve Him will recieve salvation while those who do not will not recieve salvation[Read Joun 13-15 and Matt.25]. He is very clear that we must love. The scriptures are also very clear that those who do not love do not know God because God is love[Read 1John4]. It is also very clear that God has prepared salvation for those who love Him[Read 1Cor. and James]. It is clear that our works justify us but not in a sense that it is about a law[Read James2].

We have been called by Christ into the love of God. Faith is the beginning of salvation but it is not the end. If we have faith then it should result in love. Without love we will not recieve salvation. We maintain our free will in the matter. The thing is that it will only result in love if we will it to. We will never gain communion with God until we give up what is contrary to that communion. We will never love until we reject the sins that get in the way of love.

 

[Nick_Jones]

My position is that there is no line which demarcates those who are saved from those who are not in a way that you can say that the person has done this much therefore they are saved or they have this much faith therefore they are saved while those who don’t are damned. We are commanded to love and Christ is clear that those who serve Him will recieve salvation while those who do not will not recieve salvation[Read Joun 13-15 and Matt.25]. He is very clear that we must love. The scriptures are also very clear that those who do not love do not know God because God is love[Read 1John4]. It is also very clear that God has prepared salvation for those who love Him[Read 1Cor. and James]. It is clear that our works justify us but not in a sense that it is about a law[Read James2].

Well, if salvation is for those who obey (demonstrate their love sufficiently by what they do) and damnation is for those who disobey (do NOT demonstrate their love sufficiently by what they do), then it seems clear enough that there is some standard by which God judges which of us loves and obeys sufficiently for salvation. Does God have any moral standard other than absolute perfection? If so, then God isn’t HOLY. This is the dilemma that you seem to have placed yourself into.

 

[guanophore]

If it is Rome’s teaching that for salvation to be possible, we have to demonstrate our love sufficiently by doing enough good works, or by doing good works in a sufficiently loving way, then the RCC has become Judaisers of the NT teachings on the importance of love for each other. Love, and the loving deeds that show love, by their very nature cannot be legislated into anyone. Love comes from the heart, not from the law.

I object to the use of the word “Rome” here. It is pejorative, and disrespects the 22 Catholic Rites that are not in the Latin Rite. I think it represents a prejudice against Roman Catholicism that somehow gets projected onto the non-Latin Catholics as well.

I was responding to what I thought sounded like an attempt to make salvation contingent upon our demonstrating perfect love to others through our good deeds. It was actually suggested that in this life, we humans might be capable of loving perfectly just as God loves perfectly! It seemed as though that was the position taken by Jimmy in his post (# 7).

OK. How do you read it, when Christ says “be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect”. Do you not see us commanded to perfect love? God’s grace is capable of making us love perfectly, and God loves. If this were not the case, then He would not command it!

If we can “obey” our way out of sin and into righteousness, doesn’t this make us our own saviors? Isn’t this living under the law and not under grace?

Obedience that springs from grace is under the law of love.

Rom 1:5
we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the **obedience of faith **for the sake of his name…"

Rom 16:26
according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith

Obedience is not to be separated from salvation by grace through faith. Perhaps you have stopped reading a verse too early?

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, **that we should **walk in them.

Are those who use their “free” will to choose to obey and cooperate with grace morally superior to those who use their “free” will to choose NOT to obey and NOT to cooperate with God’s grace?

I suppose they could be. Do you not believe that morals can improve over time by grace working through love? I think my morals are better than they were 10 years ago, and I hope they will continue to improve until they are entirely consistent with the commandments of God.

I’m just trying to understand exactly WHERE the two groups differ if not in their own moral goodness.

I don’t understand where you are getting this distinction at all.

Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days…"

How is it that those who choose God are somehow morally superior? It seems to me that an equal choice is given to all.

…it really seems as though your saying that there are certain morally superior people who will use their “free” will in a morally superior manner…and that by their morally better choices, this morally superior group cooperates and obeys their way into heaven. I might be reading too much into your words, so please correct me if I’ve gotten it all wrong.

You have gotten it all wrong. Human beings are saved by grace, though faith. There is no degree of moral rectitude that can merit heaven. Morality improves each time a person chooses to cooperate with grace, and is able to enter more fully into the obedience of faith, and become the workmanship God desires, producing fruit that befits repentance. Superior morality is the RESULT of salvation, not the cause if it.

 

[guanophore]

Well, if salvation is for those who obey (demonstrate their love sufficiently by what they do) and damnation is for those who disobey (do NOT demonstrate their love sufficiently by what they do), then it seems clear enough that there is some standard by which God judges which of us loves and obeys sufficiently for salvation. Does God have any moral standard other than absolute perfection? If so, then God isn’t HOLY. This is the dilemma that you seem to have placed yourself into.

Salvation is for those who obey. Damnation is for those who disobey. No, there is no other standard than absolute perfection. how is this a dilemma? It seems perfectly clear and straightforward to me.

 

[jackjones]

by whose authority can you assure me that this is a correct interpretation?
((Who’s authority, I will send you the Holy Spirit John 16:13 He will guide you in all truth… Has God limmited his Spirit in revealing Truth to mankind. Do we have to come under the banner of a certen church in order for God to speak individually into the hearts and minds of men, by gurus, who dont always get it right themselves, whom also claim to have the authority to interpretate the scriptures…))

As it is written Hab 2:4
This doesn’t say the righteous are saved by their faith, but shall live by their faith.((Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted to him for righteousness sake… Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but have seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth…))
In this book the Lord seems to be telling Habakkuk how NOT to live, as in not living by faith.
((Does it actually say that in the book of Habakkuk ? as in not living by faith, or you shall not live by faith ? Hab 2:4 His questions demonstrate the presence of faith, not the lack of it, for an atheist the question why has no meaning, for a believer the question why, finds its ultimate answer in God. Paul takes the statement of Hab 2:4 and makes it the heart of the gospel. Hab 3:13 you went forth for the salvation of your people. for salvation with your Anointed.))
Why does the word “live” to you automatically mean “to be saved”? It could very well be the WAY we live. God’s many warnings about how NOT to live which come later in chapter 2 would seem to support this.
Romans 2:2-8?(( True judaism, is found in those who are righteous before God, A real jew is not simply a man who has Abrahams blood flowing through his veins in Gods eyes, or who has the mark of circumcision in his body. God is not concerned with the extrrnal, religion, He looks for the inward sincerity and purity. A jew who manifests a godly life and not just a decendant of Abraham is a real jew. True circumcision is a matter of the heart, not just a litteral cutting of the body…
ESPECIALLY 2:6?(( this does not contradict the gospel of salvation, for God will render to each one of us according to our deeds while done in the flesh, 1 Cor 3, all about works, reward, works being burned up by laying the wrong foundation, not purgatory… For by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in Gods sight Gal 2:16 Romans 3:22 the righteousness of god through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. Vs 24 Being justified freely by his Grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. 4:16 therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace… Vs 13 through the righteousness of faith… 4:5 -6 But to him who does not work but who believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness sake, just as David also discribes the blessedness of the man whom God imputes righteousness apopart from works… 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that he might be just and justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus… Where is boasting then? it is excluded (Eph2:8) by what law? of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man IS justified by faith appart from the deeds of the law. 4:25 and was raised because of our justification… 5:1 therefore having been justified by faith, We (have) peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 5:11 and not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we HAVE NOW received econciliation. (Phil 4:3) Done deal…
Romans 13? ESPECIALLY the end of verse 11? Is Paul contradicting himself here?(( Paul is not contradicting himself, for the scriptures far out weight misquoting these as a means of works for salvation. 13:11 Paul emphasizes a high standard of moral conduct, particularly in view of the nearness of the Lords return, when our salvation will be consummated…Godly conduct my friend))
How do you reconcile these verses to 10:9-10? If you don’t believe that scripture can contradict itself, (( Its pretty clear he is talking about Godly conduct, amen… ))
The righteousness of God refers to the perfect standing which God provides for those who believe on his Son, (2 Cor 5:21)
those who are not themselves righteous are treated as if they were righteous because God sees them in all the prefection of Christ. righteousness is imputed to their account. by whose authority?
((Sorry,but in my eyes, the truth out weights sinnful mens claims to hold auhority, men that have been viewed as getting it wrong… I trust Gods Word which in most cases for me is very very clear on salvation…))
As for the verse, it doesn’t say anything in THAT verse about believing (I’m NOT saying we don’t have to believe here, so don’t get that out of it please). It just says why God made His Son and what for, not how.
By the “last being the probable meaning” do you mean that the meaning you’re getting might not be true? (( maybe B is more true, it is a finished faith in one sence, from start to end for those who God did predestinate Romans 8:29-30 Eph 1:5-11 If God knows us before we have been created in our mothers womb, Jesus knows that his sheep will hear His voice throughout time, and be saved… from faith to faith
By faith for faith to me would be exactly what it says
(( thats not what it says though.))
by our faith for our faith.
((Your writing your own script there))
God gives us grace because we have faith, in order to hold fast in our faith. I’m not arguing that we don’t need faith.
(( The holding part is you still working))
(( Maybe not your church, but its what the bible says, names In the book of life, phil 4:3… You know the holy Spirit is not restricted by mans claims to authority.))

 

[jimmy]

Well, if salvation is for those who obey (demonstrate their love sufficiently by what they do) and damnation is for those who disobey (do NOT demonstrate their love sufficiently by what they do), then it seems clear enough that there is some standard by which God judges which of us loves and obeys sufficiently for salvation. Does God have any moral standard other than absolute perfection? If so, then God isn’t HOLY. This is the dilemma that you seem to have placed yourself into.

That is a dilemma which you have created. First of all, your logic is false. God is Holy because of who He is. Nothing can take from that. Second, it is you who is saying that perfection is not demanded. It is the protestant idea that Christ’s sacrifice simply covers our sins and doesn’t change them. That is the idea of the sola scriptura believers. Imputed righteousness, not infused.

You are the one who continues to turn it into legal aspects defining love by degrees. A certain line demarcates those who are saved from those who are not. I have not made this definition as you have. Scripture makes clear that we must love. You are in the dilemma of denying Christ’s words. Christ is our savior, not Paul.

 

[jimmy]

OK. How do you read it, when Christ says “be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect”. Do you not see us commanded to perfect love? God’s grace is capable of making us love perfectly, and God loves. If this were not the case, then He would not command it!

Further, the sermon on the mount also says,

19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Further,

21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

It is Christ Himself who includes action within the idea of justification and salvation.

I say, read the scriptures daily and learn them. Especially the four gospels since they are Christ’s words and life. You will learn about salvation. Both James and Paul are correct. It is wrong to dismiss James because of what Paul says.

Everyone has to make a choice in life. We all have to determine who we will worship. Who our God is. You can not obey two Gods. You can not be a sinner and self absorbed yet honor God. They are contradictory. As Christ says,
24No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
We don’t simply make our choices with our words. Our will is involved. We must act.

 

[bookgirl32]

Are those who use their “free” will to choose to obey and cooperate with grace morally superior to those who use their “free” will to choose NOT to obey and NOT to cooperate with God’s grace? I’m just trying to understand exactly WHERE the two groups differ if not in their own moral goodness. It really seems as though your saying that there are certain morally superior people who will use their “free” will in a morally superior manner…and that by their morally better choices, this morally superior group cooperates and obeys their way into heaven. I might be reading too much into your words, so please correct me if I’ve gotten it all wrong.

I think you’re wanting me to be saying something I’m not. I’m not saying you’re doing it to be difficult though . Just get over the superiors, get over the sufficients, get over all of the adverbs and adjectives. I didn’t say it, the Church didn’t say it. It’s in the effort of obedience, many (probably most) times not even in the success of obedience. They’re not morally superior, they just said yes to God. It’s like the prodigal son. Those who chose with their free will to obey are like the prodigal son returned home, those who chose NOT to are what the prodigal son would be if he never chose to go home.

Let me ask you this, do you think those who have “believed in their hearts and confessed with their mouths” superior to those who haven’t? My guess is you would say no, it’s just that by that action those who believe have cooperated with God’s plan and are thereby saved. Same idea. Same thing actually, God just asked us to cooperate in both faith and works, not just faith.

I think the biggest problem IS once saved always saved, not in the disagreement between faith vs. works. B/c it’s a great thought, to be absolutely guaranteed of salvation no matter what you do. But it’s just not true. By saying that works matter we’re not taking away from faith, but we are saying that it’s a continuous process until the moment of death. Admitting that works matter, in reality, doesn’t take away from faith, it takes away from once saved always saved.

 

[bookgirl32]

Well, if salvation is for those who obey (demonstrate their love sufficiently by what they do) and damnation is for those who disobey (do NOT demonstrate their love sufficiently by what they do), then it seems clear enough that there is some standard by which God judges which of us loves and obeys sufficiently for salvation. Does God have any moral standard other than absolute perfection? If so, then God isn’t HOLY. This is the dilemma that you seem to have placed yourself into.

It’s not a dilemma. God, through the grace of salvation, makes us capable of being perfect. HIS grace makes us capable, we dont’ make ourselves capable.

Here’s another question, and hopefully I am alright in putting this in this thread, but do you believe that salvation just covers our sins, makes them invisible, erases the consequences, or do you believe that it absolutely takes them away? Catholics believe that they are gone, not just covered or paid for. Not gone by what we’ve done, but by what Christ did.

 

[bookgirl32]

Salvation is for those who obey. Damnation is for those who disobey. No, there is no other standard than absolute perfection. how is this a dilemma? It seems perfectly clear and straightforward to me.

I think the problem here is that Nick keeps wanting us to require a certain skill of obedience born of our own human nature. He keeps saying sufficiently when we’re not. We’re saying that to be saved, faith and obedience have to be there. We’re also saying that once we are saved, it’s possible through sanctifying grace to be sufficient. But we’re not saying that the sufficience comes before the salvation, or is needed for the salvation, just that it’s possible afterwards. I don’t know that he’s doing on purpose, but he’s twisting our words.