Salvation

[bookgirl32]

Jack:

Who’s authority, I will send you the Holy Spirit John 16:13 He will guide you in all truth…

So does the Holy Spirit tell lots of different denominations lots of different, contradictory things? Or are did He just tell you and you’re right and no one else is? How can you claim to be the only one to be right? How are you sure?

Sorry!!! I’m getting off track of the subject matter now.

 

[jackjones]

That is a dilemma which you have created. First of all, your logic is false. God is Holy because of who He is. Nothing can take from that. Second, it is you who is saying that perfection is not demanded. It is the protestant idea that Christ’s sacrifice simply covers our sins and doesn’t change them. That is the idea of the sola scriptura believers. Imputed righteousness, not infused.

You are the one who continues to turn it into legal aspects defining love by degrees. A certain line demarcates those who are saved from those who are not. I have not made this definition as you have. Scripture makes clear that we must love. You are in the dilemma of denying Christ’s words. Christ is our savior, not Paul.

(( Funny, the holy Spirit inspires men to write the word of God, Is Christ divided ? 1 Cor 1:13. All scripture is given by inspiration of God… As you say Christ is our saviour not Paul, but under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, It is Christs words that are coming forth from the very mouth of Paul via the Holy Spirit…))

 

[jimmy]

(( Funny, the holy Spirit inspires men to write the word of God, Is Christ divided ? 1 Cor 1:13. All scripture is given by inspiration of God… As you say Christ is our saviour not Paul, but under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, It is Christs words that are coming forth from the very mouth of Paul via the Holy Spirit…))

Yes, but the fact is that everyone has an order in which they interpret the scriptures. The books of the bible are not all equal. You yourself would say that the law in the Torah is not binding. The fact is that the Gospels hold a pre-eminent place. The epistles only bear any significance in relationship to the Gospels.

But you and other protestants will read Paul’s statements in Ephesians2;8-9 and ignore Christ’s words in Matt.5-7,12,16,18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 25, and John13-15 and etc. You will ignore that Christ specifically spoke about works affecting your salvation. You treat Paul as if he is the great teacher and Christ’s words are manipulated to fit in with Paul’s. The truth is that Christ’s words are the universal words and Paul’s must conform to those of Christ.

The inspiration of scripture is not in a way that destroys the personal character of the letters. Paul was certainly the author of his epistles. And John was certainly the author of his epistles. These are to be conformed to the words which Christ speaks in the gospels. If one has to bend to the other, the epistles will bend to Christ’s words. So if Paul says it is not by works but by faith and Christ says that those who do not serve Him will be damned but those who do will be saved it is Christ’s words which are the standard[Matt.25]. Paul’s words will have to conform to those of Christ.

 

[jimmy]

I am fine with Paul’s words but I will keep them in their context and won’t interpret them in a way that is contradictory to those of Christ. As Paul said, we are saved by Grace working through faith and we are the handywork of God so we were made for good works to walk in. Without Grace we would all be damned. Salvation is specifically due to God coming down and changing us through His indwelling. And faith is necessary for salvation. It is the beginning of salvation. But don’t forget that his arguements against works are pretty much against the Judaizers who say you must follow every aspect of the law in order to be a Christian. To interpret it as if works don’t affect your salvation is to contradict with the very words of Christ, who is the way, the life, and the truth. Christ specifically said that you must serve in order to be saved. Salvation might begin with faith but that is not where it ends and that is not the substance of it. You must have love. As John says, if you do not love then you do not know God because God is love. And the scriptures are clear when they say, love covers a multitude of sins*.*

 

[jackjones]

Jack:

So does the Holy Spirit tell lots of different denominations lots of different, contradictory things?
((Is this what you think i am suggesting ? far from it, i see error in all churches, because of sinful men. 1 Cor 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or where you baptized in the name of Paul? … Men do commit error, but the word of God remains the same. different interpretation, but Christ remains the same, forever… I am only opening up what the scripture says here. Phil 4:3 names in the book of life… just reading another scripture this second, 2 Timothy 3:14-16 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing form whom you have learned them. and that from childhood you have know the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (I believe whats clearly written, that the scriptures, gospels, are able to make us wise for salvation, which happens by faith in Jesus Christ, pretty clear to me, … All scripture is God breath,or inspired by God, and profitable for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be complete thoroughly equipped for every good work…

Or are did He just tell you and you’re right and no one else is? How can you claim to be the only one to be right? How are you sure? (( i never made a claim to know it all, but i know what nessessary for salvation… And i know it as sure as i know i am going to heaven… I believe Christs promises. ))

Sorry!!! I’m getting off track of the subject matter now.

 

[bookgirl32]

Sorry Jack, I’m having a little trouble following your emails, only b/c of everything being in quotes. But I’ll give it a try.

So you see error in every church, which I’m assuming means that you believe that any established churches are all man made. So you rely on the Holy Spirit to interpret the truth to you, but you’re a man, so by your own statement your interpretation can be just as wrong as anyone elses. The Bible doesn’t interpret itself though, so how are you coming to your conclusions?

 

[jackjones]

Sorry Jack, I’m having a little trouble following your emails, only b/c of everything being in quotes. But I’ll give it a try.

So you see error in every church, which I’m assuming means that you believe that any established churches are all man made.(( I didnt say that, and its not what i assume))

So you rely on the Holy Spirit to interpret the truth to you, but you’re a man,(( And this means that God doest reveal his truth to men ? I think this is a classic case of not believing God when he says his helper he will send to guide us in all truth))

so by your own statement your interpretation can be just as wrong as anyone elses.(( No, what i dont understand, i learn, history, archaeology, culture, church history,to Help better my understanding. But what is clear to my understand is that we dont need gurus to tell us what God has revealed, the gospels are of no private interpertation…

The Bible doesn’t interpret itself though
So your saying you cannot know by reading Gods whether or not it is true, understandable, personal revelation from God to man via his holy spirit… It is other mens false interpretation, and visible contradictions that i fear, like saying there is another saviour besides Jesus or someone else has something to do with Gods plan of Salvation when you will not find this garp in the bible… Salvation is in Christ alone. Acts 4:12 But there are some that think different because of assumptions based on traditions and nbot Gods word, we can narrow down by the obvious what is false pretty quickly, i can give you some examples, on contradictions if you like… sorry bout my responces, i am not sure how to work these codes God bless

, so how are you coming to your conclusions?

 

[JRKH]

((Is this what you think i am suggesting ? far from it, i see error in all churches, because of sinful men.

This is an interesting point, and an important one.

1 Cor 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or where you baptized in the name of Paul? … Men do commit error, but the word of God remains the same. different interpretation, but Christ remains the same, forever… I am only opening up what the scripture says here.
Phil 4:3 names in the book of life… just reading another scripture this second, 2 Timothy 3:14-16 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing form whom you have learned them. and that from childhood you have know the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. *(I believe whats clearly written, that the scriptures, gospels, are able to make us wise for salvation, which happens by faith in Jesus Christ, pretty clear to me, …) *All scripture is God breath,or inspired by God, and profitable for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be complete thoroughly equipped for every good work…

Or are did He just tell you and you’re right and no one else is? How can you claim to be the only one to be right? How are you sure? (( i never made a claim to know it all, but i know what nessessary for salvation… And i know it as sure as i know i am going to heaven… I believe Christs promises. ))

People in the Church can make errors, so indeed it can be said that there can be errors “in” all churches. However, does that mean the the “Church”, as in its teachings contains error?
Non-catholics declare that the Bible is inerrant but that men can interpret wrong and thereby sin. The Bible is right but the “man” is in error.

But they do not want to allow for the same possiblility with “The Church”.

In Matthew 18 we find:
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

So Jesus is making “The Church” the aribiter here for disagreements.

Peace
James

 

[Nick_Jones]

I object to the use of the word “Rome” here. It is pejorative, and disrespects the 22 Catholic Rites that are not in the Latin Rite. I think it represents a prejudice against Roman Catholicism that somehow gets projected onto the non-Latin Catholics as well.

I’m sorry that you take offense to my use of the word, “Rome”. My intention is not to be insulting, but to avoid offending non-Latin Catholics and others who may consider themselves “Catholic.”

OK. How do you read it, when Christ says “be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect”.

Is God’s standard for moral goodness absolute perfection at all times, or is it some mixture of sin and perfect obedience? What would you prefer Jesus to say? How about, “Be far above average” or, “Be as good as you think you need to be in order to earn your salvation”???

Do you not see us commanded to perfect love? God’s grace is capable of making us love perfectly, and God loves. If this were not the case, then He would not command it!

What ever is a commandment from God is law, and we are all lawbreakers. God has the perfect right to command what He wishes…even if we don’t have any power to keep the commandments that He as given to us. In the end, you must decide whether you will live under the law, or under God’s grace. If you are under grace you will not fear the law and the condemnation that it brings. Instead, you will be a new creature in Christ, serving Him out of gratitude and not out of the selfish desire to earn God’s mercy by your own righteous deeds.

You have gotten it all wrong. Human beings are saved by grace, though faith. There is no degree of moral rectitude that can merit heaven. Morality improves each time a person chooses to cooperate with grace, and is able to enter more fully into the obedience of faith, and become the workmanship God desires, producing fruit that befits repentance. Superior morality is the RESULT of salvation, not the cause if it.

Yes! And if it is by grace, then it is NOT by our works.

 

[jimmy]

Yes! And if it is by grace, then it is NOT by our works.

James2;24.

Why do you continue to ignore Christ’s words and those of the rest of the scriptures and cling to the one verse you are quoting? Ephesians2;8 is true but it must be interprteted in a way that conforms to the words of Christ and does not contradict the rest of scripture. Ephesians2;8 and Romans3-5 are not the only texts of the bible.

 

[bookgirl32]

Is God’s standard for moral goodness absolute perfection at all times, or is it some mixture of sin and perfect obedience? What would you prefer Jesus to say? How about, “Be far above average” or, “Be as good as you think you need to be in order to earn your salvation”???

YOu’re still not listening – BUT we may be confusing you too. The perfection is possible BECAUSE of salvation, AFTER salvation, only with the grace that comes with salvation. It is not expected of us FOR salvation. When Christ saves us He makes us able to achieve perfection through Him. And yes, God’s standard for moral goodness probably is perfection. Is that what He requires of us to be saved? No. But He makes it possible after we’ve received the sanctifying grace of salvation, and likes it if we try, and if we love Him it’s a great way of showing that.

What ever is a commandment from God is law, and we are all lawbreakers. God has the perfect right to command what He wishes…even if we don’t have any power to keep the commandments that He as given to us. In the end, you must decide whether you will live under the law, or under God’s grace. If you are under grace you will not fear the law and the condemnation that it brings. Instead, you will be a new creature in Christ, serving Him out of gratitude and not out of the selfish desire to earn God’s mercy by your own righteous deeds.

So you admit that a commandment from God is law. So He creates it. But then His plan is for it to mean nothing, in fact if we pay attention to and try to follow His law that we are going against Him? Right now it sounds to me that you’ve got God contradicting Himself. Or you have have Him creating things for absolutely no reason.

Yes! And if it is by grace, then it is NOT by our works.

 

[bookgirl32]

even if we don’t have any power to keep the commandments that He as given to us.

So apparently now you disagree with the notion of free will? I can keep the commandments. I’m not saying I always do, but it is certainly not impossible for us to keep the commandments. And if you come back having me saying something about how well I keep them, I’ll be really mad :crying: .

 

[bookgirl32]

AND two posts up that very last message was meant to be deleted, it’s left over from Nick’s. Sorry.

 

[guanophore]

I’m sorry that you take offense to my use of the word, “Rome”. My intention is not to be insulting, but to avoid offending non-Latin Catholics and others who may consider themselves “Catholic.”

How does making “Rome” responsible for the Teachings of Christ avoid offending non-Latins? I don’t follow that.

Is God’s standard for moral goodness absolute perfection at all times, or is it some mixture of sin and perfect obedience? What would you prefer Jesus to say? How about, “Be far above average” or, “Be as good as you think you need to be in order to earn your salvation”???

I did not object to His commandment to “be perfect”. In truth I find His commandments to be far above my “preferences”.

What ever is a commandment from God is law, and we are all lawbreakers. God has the perfect right to command what He wishes…even if we don’t have any power to keep the commandments that He as given to us. In the end, you must decide whether you will live under the law, or under God’s grace. If you are under grace you will not fear the law and the condemnation that it brings. Instead, you will be a new creature in Christ, serving Him out of gratitude and not out of the selfish desire to earn God’s mercy by your own righteous deeds.

I think the mistake in this thinking is that somehow the commandment is set aside, which it is not. In fact, God has given us the power to keep His commandments. He expects for us to keep them. If we indeed are a new creation, then we are set free from the bondage of sin, and have the liberty of the Children of God, in that we are now free to follow HIs commandments without bondage to the world, the flesh, and the devil.

Yes! And if it is by grace, then it is NOT by our works.

Phil 2:12-13
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Not our works, surely, but His. This is the distinction between works of the flesh, and Sacred Works. The Works of God are based in, and proceed from, the grace that saves us. God’s grace is at work within us to bring us to desire and to experience His good pleasure. this is the difference in understanding salvation from a Catholic point of view. Catholics don’t believe we are snow covered dung heaps. Catholics believe in Theosis - He became man that we might become like God. His image, perfectly reflected in us.

 

[Nick_Jones]

YOu’re still not listening – BUT we may be confusing you too. The perfection is possible BECAUSE of salvation, AFTER salvation, only with the grace that comes with salvation. It is not expected of us FOR salvation. When Christ saves us He makes us able to achieve perfection through Him. And yes, God’s standard for moral goodness probably is perfection. Is that what He requires of us to be saved? No. But He makes it possible after we’ve received the sanctifying grace of salvation, and likes it if we try, and if we love Him it’s a great way of showing that.

If the apostle Paul still struggled with his sinful nature and continued sinning AFTER his conversion, what makes you think you will do better than him?

So you admit that a commandment from God is law. So He creates it. But then His plan is for it to mean nothing, in fact if we pay attention to and try to follow His law that we are going against Him? Right now it sounds to me that you’ve got God contradicting Himself. Or you have have Him creating things for absolutely no reason.

Does the law make us good? No, the law points the way to Christ, since the law clearly shows us our unrighteousness, since we are all lawbreakers. In all of this, God has used His plan and His purpose in such a way as to reveal that He DOES all that He does for a reason.

 

[Odell]

Is God’s standard for moral goodness absolute perfection at all times, or is it some mixture of sin and perfect obedience? What would you prefer Jesus to say? How about, “Be far above average” or, “Be as good as you think you need to be in order to earn your salvation”???

I suppose Jesus would say something along the lines of “you can do all things in me”

Philippians 4:13
“I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.”

What ever is a commandment from God is law, and we are all lawbreakers.

Jesus says if you break the least of my commandments you will not have life

lets see Jesus or Nick Jones:shrug:

God has the perfect right to command what He wishes…even if we don’t have any power to keep the commandments that He as given to us.

Jesus would not command us to do something that we could not do. a commandment is a commandment there is not geting around it

Jesus did not say I command you to do… But I came so you can break …:whacky:

In the end, you must decide whether you will live under the law, or under God’s grace.

What law the Levitical laws or the Law of Christ?

Heb. 7:11-12 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Jesus said I came to fulfill the law not to abolish the law. (Lk 10:25-37).

(Rom 2:12-16) For whosoever have sinned without the law shall perish without the law: and whosoever have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law. 13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God: but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these, having not the law, are a law to themselves. 15 Who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them: and their thoughts between themselves accusing or also defending one another, 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

What Law is he talking about?

Because this Law he is talking about by keeping it we will be justified

I will give you a hint it is the Law of Christ

I choose to do as Christ commanded. You do what you want.

And by the way Doing what Jesus commanded is living under the Grace of God.

I dont know where you got this ridiculous notion that living the Law of Christ is living outside the Grace of God. But you need a reality check

may Christ open your heart

If you are under grace you will not fear the law and the condemnation that it brings. Instead, you will be a new creature in Christ, serving Him out of gratitude and not out of the selfish desire to earn God’s mercy by your own righteous deeds.

No one here fears the Law the Last I checked the Law of Christ does not bring condemnation

I dont recall myself trying to earn Gods mercy either. But If YOU want to know if YOU are under His Grace you might want to do as he commanded

Oh one more thing this will help you know if you are under the Grace of God. this is from a book theology of the body for beginners

"Most people look at Christian morality-especially sexual morality-as an oppressive list of rules to follow. How far this misunderstanding is from the living morality proclaimed by Christ! The Gospel doesn’t give us more rules to follow. The Gospel is meant to change our hearts so that we no longer need the rules(see Cathichsm 1968) To the degree that we experience this change of heart, we experience freedom from the law (Rom 7, Gal 5), not freedom to break the law; freedom to fulfill it. Here’s an example of what freedom from the law looks like: Do you have any desire to murder your best friend? This may seem like an odd question, but it actually demonstrates the point. Assuming you do not, then you don’t need that commandment. Thou shall not murder thy best friend. Why? Because you have no desire to break it. To this extent you are free from the law. In other words, you don’t experience this law as an imposition because your heart conforms to it.

When we allow Christ into our hearts we no longer need the law because we no longer desire to break them. What law do you still need? What teachings of the Church still feel like a burden or imposition to you? **Perhaps the problem isn’t the law or the Church, but with your “hardness of heart” don’t throw away the law, surrender your disordered desires to Christ and let him transform them.” **

hope this last part I bolded will help

harden not your heart!!!

Yes! And if it is by grace, then it is NOT by our works.

 

[bookgirl32]

If the apostle Paul still struggled with his sinful nature and continued sinning AFTER his conversion, what makes you think you will do better than him?

NOTHING. What makes you think I said that?

Does the law make us good? No, the law points the way to Christ, since the law clearly shows us our unrighteousness, since we are all lawbreakers. In all of this, God has used His plan and His purpose in such a way as to reveal that He DOES all that He does for a reason.

No, God makes us good. What makes you think He wouldn’t make it possible for us to be perfect? If we’re being adopted as his true children, what makes you think He wouldn’t make it possible, and in fact help us along the way if we wanted and cooperated?

 

[guanophore]

If the apostle Paul still struggled with his sinful nature and continued sinning AFTER his conversion, what makes you think you will do better than him?

Something is wrong with your standard here. It is not right to measure oneself according to a brother. One must measure oneself against the standard that the Lord has set. He said “be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect”. I don’t know the details of Paul’s character, and can only speculate from the Holy Writings. God has called us to perfection, to to measure ourselves against ourselves. Jesus has delivered us from our sinful nature, and it is our work to embrace this deliverance with all that is in us.

Does the law make us good?
No, the law points the way to Christ, since the law clearly shows us our unrighteousness, since we are all lawbreakers. In all of this, God has used His plan and His purpose in such a way as to reveal that He DOES all that He does for a reason.

Yes, but having come to understand our lack, we can find our fulfillment in Him. It is His grace, working within us to will and to do His good pleasure that perfects us. It is our worship to cooperate with this grace.

 

[oneseeker]

Holy smokes, look what I started! I’m gone for a day or two, and this thread has exploded. Well, thank you everyone who has posted, even the disagreeable ones, b/c I learned the most from Catholics debating you.

oneseeker

 

[Nick_Jones]

Salvation is for those who obey. Damnation is for those who disobey. No, there is no other standard than absolute perfection. how is this a dilemma? It seems perfectly clear and straightforward to me.

Are you one of those who always obeys God, and never disobeys? If so, then you are the first (since Jesus) to live a perfectly obedient life. If you aren’t always in obedience to God, what does Scripture tell us? “The wages of sin is death.”