Salvation

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Nick_Jones said:
Are you one of those who always obeys God, and never disobeys? If so, then you are the first (since Jesus) to live a perfectly obedient life. If you aren’t always in obedience to God, what does Scripture tell us? “The wages of sin is death.”
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Scripture tells us to repent

but I can see where you would have a problem with doing that.

there is sin unto death and sin not unto death (1 Jn 5:16-17)
 
jimmy said:
Second, it is you who is saying that perfection is not demanded.
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I have never said that perfection is not demanded for salvation, in fact I’m the one that is trying to remind you (RC’s) that God’s standard for goodness is absolute perfection in every detail.
It is the protestant idea that Christ’s sacrifice simply covers our sins and doesn’t change them. That is the idea of the sola scriptura believers. Imputed righteousness, not infused.
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The bible tells us that on the cross Jesus bore the sins of many. If Jesus has paid the full price for my sins, then the wrath of God has already been appeased by the perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God, who has taken all of my sins away. By God’s grace, my sins don’t need to be “changed” for they have been taken away from me and placed on Jesus, who died for my sins.
You are the one who continues to turn it into legal aspects defining love by degrees. A certain line demarcates those who are saved from those who are not. I have not made this definition as you have. Scripture makes clear that we must love. You are in the dilemma of denying Christ’s words. Christ is our savior, not Paul.
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The fact that I believe that Jesus has taken away all of my sins is the very reason why I love Him. But for those who view God as a task-master who demands some unknowable demarcation of deeds done in love for others… for salvation to be possible, there is no love possible for that kind of god. Who would you be more likely to love, the person who keeps reminding you how much you owe him, or the one who tells you that your entire debt has been paid…and you owe nothing at all?
 
bookgirl32 said:
Let me ask you this, do you think those who have “believed in their hearts and confessed with their mouths” superior to those who haven’t? My guess is you would say no, it’s just that by that action those who believe have cooperated with God’s plan and are thereby saved. Same idea. Same thing actually, God just asked us to cooperate in both faith and works, not just faith.
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No, I don’t think those who have “believed in their hearts and confessed with their mouths” are superior to those who haven’t. And I don’t believe that the bible teaches that salvation is attained by being good enough to merit it, as in being willing to “cooperate” with our faith and our good works.
 
bookgirl32 said:
I think the biggest problem IS once saved always saved, not in the disagreement between faith vs. works. B/c it’s a great thought, to be absolutely guaranteed of salvation no matter what you do. But it’s just not true. By saying that works matter we’re not taking away from faith, but we are saying that it’s a continuous process until the moment of death. Admitting that works matter, in reality, doesn’t take away from faith, it takes away from once saved always saved.
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The only POSSIBLE way for us to be absolutely assured of our salvation is by trusting in the goodness and mercy of the Savior; not by placing any faith in our own potential for goodness. Everyone is trusting in something. As for me, I will trust in Jesus.
 
Nick_Jones said:
No, I don’t think those who have “believed in their hearts and confessed with their mouths” are superior to those who haven’t. And I don’t believe that the bible teaches that salvation is attained by being good enough to merit it, as in being willing to “cooperate” with our faith and our good works.
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That’s good, I don’t believe that the Bible teaches that salvation is attained by being good enough to merit it either. But you seem to keep telling me that I do.
 
Nick_Jones said:
The only POSSIBLE way for us to be absolutely assured of our salvation is by trusting in the goodness and mercy of the Savior; not by placing any faith in our own potential for goodness. Everyone is trusting in something. As for me, I will trust in Jesus.
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You just proved my point.
 
bookgirl32 said:
It’s not a dilemma. God, through the grace of salvation, makes us capable of being perfect. HIS grace makes us capable, we dont’ make ourselves capable.

Here’s another question, and hopefully I am alright in putting this in this thread, but do you believe that salvation just covers our sins, makes them invisible, erases the consequences, or do you believe that it absolutely takes them away? Catholics believe that they are gone, not just covered or paid for. Not gone by what we’ve done, but by what Christ did.
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I believe that on the cross, Jesus actually took all of my sins away and bore them upon Himself. Although I’m still a sinner in my flesh, never the less, my sins are gone.
 
Nick_Jones said:
I believe that on the cross, Jesus actually took all of my sins away and bore them upon Himself. Although I’m still a sinner in my flesh, never the less, my sins are gone.
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Okay, so do you think that your salvation changes you other than the fact that you now go to Heaven?
 
bookgirl32 said:
I think the problem here is that Nick keeps wanting us to require a certain skill of obedience born of our own human nature. He keeps saying sufficiently when we’re not. We’re saying that to be saved, faith and obedience have to be there. We’re also saying that once we are saved, it’s possible through sanctifying grace to be sufficient. But we’re not saying that the sufficience comes before the salvation, or is needed for the salvation, just that it’s possible afterwards. I don’t know that he’s doing on purpose, but he’s twisting our words.
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I’m not twisting any words. I’m saying that in the same way that only those who are sick need a physican, it is only because humanity has fallen into sin that Jesus has come to the earth to give His life for His sheep so that they will be saved. If I can heal myself then I don’t need a doctor. If I am capable of being perfectly righteous then I don’t need the Savior of mankind. But since I’m sinful and unrighteous I am in desperate need of my Savior, who loves me in spite of my sin, and who has given His own life so that I can live, to be with Him forever.
 
Nick_Jones said:
I’m not twisting any words. I’m saying that in the same way that only those who are sick need a physican, it is only because humanity has fallen into sin that Jesus has come to the earth to give His life for His sheep so that they will be saved. If I can heal myself then I don’t need a doctor. If I am capable of being perfectly righteous then I don’t need the Savior of mankind. But since I’m sinful and unrighteous I am in desperate need of my Savior, who loves me in spite of my sin, and who has given His own life so that I can live, and be with Him forever.
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Okay I’m glad you’re saying all that, I don’t know exactly who you’re saying it to b/c it’s not really applicable to what we’re telling you.
 
Nick_Jones said:
I’m not twisting any words. I’m saying that in the same way that only those who are sick need a physican, it is only because humanity has fallen into sin that Jesus has come to the earth to give His life for His sheep so that they will be saved. If I can heal myself then I don’t need a doctor. If I am capable of being perfectly righteous then I don’t need the Savior of mankind. But since I’m sinful and unrighteous I am in desperate need of my Savior, who loves me in spite of my sin, and who has given His own life so that I can live, to be with Him forever.
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The difference is Catholics go to the doctor as well as you. But we actually go pick up the prescription 😃
 
bookgirl32 said:
Okay I’m glad you’re saying all that, I don’t know exactly who you’re saying it to b/c it’s not really applicable to what we’re telling you.
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I’m saying these things because I’m convinced from God’s word that I have nothing good to offer to God. I’m so evil that I’d still be an antitheist (I called myself an atheist before my conversion) if not for the grace of God, which caused me, much to my surprise, to begin to see myself as I really am–a vile and wicked sinner who truly deserves to burn in hell forever. God’s grace comes to His sheep in a variety of ways–some more dramatic than others, but I never ever expected to suddenly find myself convinced of my own sinfulness and desperately in need of God’s mercy!
 
bookgirl32 said:
Okay, so do you think that your salvation changes you other than the fact that you now go to Heaven?
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I guess I should say this: Do you believe that all that God’s grace does is save you from Hell? If the answer is yes, do you believe that God either 1: Does not have the power to change you and make you capable of being a good person? 2: Does not want to make you capable of being a good person? or 3: Doesn’t really care one way or the other?

Of course you could say He doesn’t think it’s necessary, but nothing He’s done has been necessary, He could’ve done whatever He wanted.
 
Nick_Jones said:
I’m saying these things because I’m convinced from God’s word that I have nothing good to offer to God. I’m so evil that I’d still be an antitheist (I called myself an atheist before my conversion) if not for the grace of God, which caused me, much to my surprise, to begin to see myself as I really am–a vile and wicked sinner who truly deserves to burn in hell forever. God’s grace comes to His sheep in a variety of ways–some more dramatic than others, but I never ever expected to suddenly find myself convinced of my own sinfulness and desperately in need of God’s mercy!
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That’s sad. I think God loves you way more than that.
 
bookgirl32 said:
I guess I should say this: Do you believe that all that God’s grace does is save you from Hell? If the answer is yes, do you believe that God either 1: Does not have the power to change you and make you capable of being a good person? 2: Does not want to make you capable of being a good person? or 3: Doesn’t really care one way or the other?

Of course you could say He doesn’t think it’s necessary, but nothing He’s done has been necessary, He could’ve done whatever He wanted.
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No. I believe that God not only saved me because He is good, but I also notice that the apostle Paul, and saved people in general, have a certain zeal for Jesus that manifests itself as a continual eagerness to share their faith with those who don’t know Jesus. There are so many religious people in world…and so few who know Jesus. Lots of people have a zeal for their religion. The faith that saves souls is a faith that is zealous for Jesus. Religion can’t save anyone. Only Jesus can do that!
 
Nick_Jones said:
No. 1: I believe that God not only saved me because He is good, but 2: I also notice that the apostle Paul, and saved people in general, have a certain zeal for Jesus that manifests itself as a continual eagerness to share their faith with those who don’t know Jesus. There are so many religious people in world…and so few who know Jesus. Lots of people have a zeal for their religion. The faith that saves souls is a faith that is zealous for Jesus. Religion can’t save anyone. Only Jesus can do that!
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  1. I didn’t ask why you think He saved you, but if you think that the only thing that that salvation saves you from is Hell? You answered no but the explenation afterwards wasn’t an answer to the question.
  2. God’s grace gives us zeal for God so that we can be excited and spread the word to others so that they can be saved too. I get that and I agree. So is that the only other thing that it does?
 
bookgirl32 said:
I guess I should say this: Do you believe that all that God’s grace does is save you from Hell? If the answer is yes, do you believe that God either 1: Does not have the power to change you and make you capable of being a good person? 2: Does not want to make you capable of being a good person? or 3: Doesn’t really care one way or the other?

Of course you could say He doesn’t think it’s necessary, but nothing He’s done has been necessary, He could’ve done whatever He wanted.
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Good quesiton

he happens to be avoiding it as well
 
Nick_Jones said:
Are you one of those who always obeys God, and never disobeys? If so, then you are the first (since Jesus) to live a perfectly obedient life. If you aren’t always in obedience to God, what does Scripture tell us? “The wages of sin is death.”
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1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9** If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. **10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Thanks be to God or Confession! 👍

His grace poured out to us in forgiveness does not take away the obligation to follow the commandments.
 
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