Salvation

[Nick_Jones]

Free will has nothing to do with “goodness”. It is God’s gift to mankind. If you think that humans cannot have the ability to choose, please explain the following verses, and what they mean in Calvanist thought. I just cannot figure it out:

If our own “free” will is the decisive factor in accepting or rejecting God’s offer of salvation, AND if our “free” will is the decisive factor in our choice to commit mortal sin or not to commit mortal sin, then free will has everything to do with our own goodness and ultimately, our salvation.

If, in Adam, we are all born into sin, objects of wrath, hostile toward God, and prisoners of sin, as Scripture testifies, then our will is not free. The unregenerate will is under the bondage of sin, and we are (willfully) slaves to sin.

Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days,

I haven’t denied that fallen sinners still get to make choices in life. We all have the capacity to choose what we want and to reject what we don’t want. This is one of several admonitions from God to make the good and right choice. As I’ve already pointed out, it is not unusual for God to admonish or even command of us something that is impossible for mankind to do. See Mark 10:21 “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

1 Tim 2:3-4
God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

If you read this in context you will notice that “all men” is meant to include all classes of men–even those who bitterly oppose the gospel message… for kings and all those in authority. This is not not the teaching of universal salvation.

1 Tim. 2:1-7
I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

There are other verses that clearly testify that only God can bring men to repentance:

2 Tim. 2:25
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth…

Rom. 9:14-16
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Luke 7:30
30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves,

Why does God appear to offer a choice between life and death?

It is all for God’s glory. If you don’t understand this, it is possible that you have not grasped that in God’s eternal decree regarding whom He wills to save and whom He wills not to save, the whole thing is for God’s glory and not ours.

 

[bookgirl32]

First of all, sorry Guanaphore, I’m answering Nick’s post to you, but I can’t help it!

If our own “free” will is the decisive factor in accepting or rejecting God’s offer of salvation, AND if our “free” will is the decisive factor in our choice to commit mortal sin or not to commit mortal sin, then free will has everything to do with our own goodness and ultimately, our salvation.

Of course our free will has to do with our salvation, but that doesn’t mean we work or earn our way there. Free will is something that we DON’T have a choice of, we have to have it, we can’t relinquish our God-given nature. We can relinquish our will, but that’s still a choice. God MADE us that way. WE didn’t earn that.

If, in Adam, we are all born into sin, objects of wrath, hostile toward God, and prisoners of sin, as Scripture testifies, then our will is not free. The unregenerate will is under the bondage of sin, and we are (willfully) slaves to sin.

Being a slave does not make your free will non-existent. It takes away some of your freedoms, but does not change the state in which you were created. Earthly slaves are still able to control their thoughts, so they still have free will.

I haven’t denied that fallen sinners still get to make choices in life. We all have the capacity to choose what we want and to reject what we don’t want. This is one of several admonitions from God to make the good and right choice. As I’ve already pointed out, it is not unusual for God to admonish or even command of us something that is impossible for mankind to do. See Mark 10:21 “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Since when is it impossible to sell everything you have? A lot of people wouldn’t want to, and have good reasons not to, but since when is it impossible?

If you read this in context you will notice that “all men” is meant to include all classes of men–even those who bitterly oppose the gospel message… for kings and all those in authority. This is not not the teaching of universal salvation.

1 Tim. 2:1-7
I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

How is this NOT the teaching for universal salvation? All men being saved and coming to a knowledge of the truth isn’t a teaching of universal salvation?

There are other verses that clearly testify that only God can bring men to repentance:

2 Tim. 2:25
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth…

Gently instruct, especially the gently, implies that the man has every ability to reject the instruction. If he meant “make him believe outside of any of his own free will” he would’ve said that, don’t you think?

Rom. 9:14-16
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

OR, it means that God will do what He says and save those who have faith in him and keep His commandments!

It is all for God’s glory. If you don’t understand this, it is possible that you have not grasped that in God’s eternal decree regarding whom He wills to save and whom He wills not to save, the whole thing is for God’s glory and not ours.

So how do you know you’re one of whom He will save?

 

[guanophore]

It is “free” in the same way that the offer of CPR is “free” to the unconscious and dead (no longer breathing) person who CANNOT ACCEPT the “free” offer of CPR to get him breathing again.

The soul of the person who is in a state of original sin is not in a condition to please God. That does not mean he cannot function.

Luke 11:13
13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

Even those who were 'dead in their trespasses and sins" are still engaged in behavior and choices. They still can desire the good, though they are unable to effectuate it. The knowledge of God is embedded in the heart of man, and is also evident in God’s creation"

Rom 1:18-2:1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth.** 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse;** 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. 29 They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.

How is it the Pagans were to “know” these things about the immortal God? They were not the recipients of God’s revelation as given to the Jews! Yet, God expected them to reverence the Creator, rather than the creature. They had a CHOICE whether or not to acknowlege God. The Truth is revealed in Creation, in the things that have been made. One of these “creations” is man. God has planted within the human soul the very stamp of his nature. As the Saint puts it “our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee”.

God does not “give them up” until they turn away from him. All this happens prior to “regeneration”. These graces are part of God’s prevenient, or drawing grace.

John 12:32-33
32 and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

You seem to believe that “all” does not really mean “all”?

Should it read "God desires for “some” to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth?

 

[Nick_Jones]

I’m still glad we’ve got that point about free gifts though, if it’s free it’s free, you’ve affirmed that. Your objection is to the reaction to the free gift, and not to the nature of the gift itself. So we can can clear that up about the Church nullifying God’s grace then.

It appears that you still haven’t come to terms with the nature of fallen unregenerate mankind, and hence, the nature of saving grace. I’ll make another attempt to explain it.

We sin because we are sinners. Sinners DO only what is in their nature to do. God, being goodness itself, DOES only what is in His nature to do.

Now if sinners cannot change their very nature–if we can’t transform ourselves into something other than what we already are, then we are, as Scripture says, “prisoners of sin.” What do sinners want? They want to sin. What does God require of us for salvation? He requires absolute perfection in all righteousness. But we are all sinners. How can we be saved? Can we change ourselves so that we can begin to love what (who) is truly good? Jesus said, “you must be born again.”

 

[bookgirl32]

It appears that you still haven’t come to terms with the nature of fallen unregenerate mankind, and hence, the nature of saving grace. I’ll make another attempt to explain it.

We sin because we are sinners. Sinners DO only what is in their nature to do. God, being goodness itself, DOES only what is in His nature to do.

Now if sinners cannot change their very nature–if we can’t transform ourselves into something other than what we already are, then we are, as Scripture says, “prisoners of sin.” What do sinners want? They want to sin. What does God require of us for salvation? He requires absolute perfection in all righteousness. But we are all sinners. How can we be saved? Can we change ourselves so that we can begin to love what (who) is truly good? Jesus said, “you must be born again.”

I appears that you still have not come to terms with the plan of salvation that Jesus instituted through His Church, which is completely supported in His word, a part of which are the scriptures you are reading and the Tradition handed down by the His Church, which the scriptures you are reading will support.

Honestly, though, I am really glad you will admit that the definition of the word “free” is not changed by an objects reaction to it.

 

[Nick_Jones]

dead in your transgressions and sins, not spiritually dead.

How would you characterize “spiritually dead” if not by being incapable of anything other than transgressions and sins?

Please resond to guanaphore’s point about being hostile to God. To be hostile to God, you have to be in at least some sort of relationship with Him, correct? By your definition of dead, you can’t be dead and hostile at the same time.

I agree. To be hostile to God, you have to be in at least some sort of relationship with Him, and the relationship dead unregenerate sinners have with God is that they (unregenerate sinners) are objects of wrath in God’s sight.

 

[Nick_Jones]

I appears that you still have not come to terms with the plan of salvation that Jesus instituted through His Church, which is completely supported in His word, a part of which are the scriptures you are reading and the Tradition handed down by the His Church, which the scriptures you are reading will support.

Honestly, though, I am really glad you will admit that the definition of the word “free” is not changed by an objects reaction to it.

The nature of fallen unregenerate mankind is such that the only kind of free gift that can possibly save him is one that is not in any way dependent upon his own goodness in making the gift effectual, for the unregenerate sinner has no goodness with which to accept or cooperate with God’s grace.

 

[bookgirl32]

The nature of fallen unregenerate mankind is such that the only kind of free gift that can possibly save him is one that is not in any way dependent upon his own goodness in making the gift effectual, for the unregenerate sinner has no goodness with which to accept or cooperate with God’s grace.

So when God said, “It is good” He was lying?

 

[Nick_Jones]

I appears that you still have not come to terms with the plan of salvation that Jesus instituted through His Church, which is completely supported in His word, a part of which are the scriptures you are reading and the Tradition handed down by the His Church, which the scriptures you are reading will support.

If the sinful mind is hostile toward God, then how can the Catholic Church be of any help to him? Can Churchianity transform the sinful mind and make sinners repentant?

 

[bookgirl32]

How would you characterize “spiritually dead” if not by being incapable of anything other than transgressions and sins?

Um, not going to Heaven, not being saved, going to Hell, not unconcious or without the exercise of free will, that’s for sure. You’re not going to convince me by saying the same thing over and over and over and insisting that I believe somethign that I don’t, sorry.

I agree. To be hostile to God, you have to be in at least some sort of relationship with Him, and the relationship dead unregenerate sinners have with God is that they (unregenerate sinners) are objects of wrath in God’s sight.

Okay, so they’re not “unconcious” to Him then.

 

[bookgirl32]

If the sinful mind is hostile toward God, then how can the Catholic Church be of any help to him? Can Churchianity transform the sinful mind and make sinners repentant?

By this argument, Nick, then the scriptures can do NOTHING either.

 

[Nick_Jones]

So when God said, “It is good” He was lying?

No.

 

[bookgirl32]

So then we, in the fall, which was something we did, had the power to completely change something God made?

 

[Nick_Jones]

Of course our free will has to do with our salvation, but that doesn’t mean we work or earn our way there. Free will is something that we DON’T have a choice of, we have to have it, we can’t relinquish our God-given nature. We can relinquish our will, but that’s still a choice. God MADE us that way. WE didn’t earn that.

Then why don’t you tell a heroin addict that he is just as FREE to not use heroin as anyone is. Try telling a heavy smoker that he is
just as FREE to do without cigarettes as anyone is. Go ahead! Don’t be shy! If you really are a humanist, (we all have perfect control of our own will) then take your message out to those who need to hear it! Tell everyone that:

Free will is something that we DON’T have a choice of, we have to have it, we can’t relinquish our God-given nature. We can relinquish our will, but that’s still a choice. God MADE us that way.

 

[Nick_Jones]

So then we, in the fall, which was something we did, had the power to completely change something God made?

Yes. Death is a complete change of the person, and God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit or they will surely die.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Since when is it impossible to sell everything you have? A lot of people wouldn’t want to, and have good reasons not to, but since when is it impossible?

When Jesus told the rich man to sell all of his possessions and give the money to the poor, is it because Jesus wanted the rich man to be poor too? No, Jesus wasn’t troubled by the rich man’s wealth, He was troubled by the rich man’s love of his wealth.

The point of the story is that all of us love certain worldly things more than we should. Jesus wasn’t trying to teach that rich people are evil, or that rich people need to become poor in order to be saved. Jesus was teaching that none of us can do what is required for salvation. Every person has worldly desires and worldly attachments that are keeping us from following Christ. For the rich man, it happened to be his wealth.

 

[bookgirl32]

Then why don’t you tell a heroin addict that he is just as FREE to not use heroin as anyone is. Try telling a heavy smoker that he is
just as FREE to do without cigarettes as anyone is. Go ahead! Don’t be shy! If you really are a humanist, (we all have perfect control of our own will) then take your message out to those who need to hear it! Tell everyone that:

The herion users original choice to use herion was an act of free will, as was the smokers. Are you saying God predestined them to be this?

 

[bookgirl32]

When Jesus told the rich man to sell all of his possessions and give the money to the poor, is it because Jesus wanted the rich man to be poor too? No, Jesus wasn’t troubled by the rich man’s wealth, He was troubled by the rich man’s love of his wealth.

The point of the story is that all of us love certain worldly things more than we should. Jesus wasn’t trying to teach that rich people are evil, or that rich people need to become poor in order to be saved. Jesus was teaching that none of us can do what is required for salvation. Every person has worldly desires and worldly attachments that are keeping us from following Christ. For the rich man, it happened to be his wealth.

I understand what He was teaching, you claimed it was impossible (your word) that we do that, and it’s not.

 

[bookgirl32]

Yes. Death is a complete change of the person, and God warned Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit or they will surely die.

So Adam and Eve, by their free will, had the power to ruin their union with God. They were, by your definition, already perfect as God had created them at that point. So we, who are not, don’t?

 

[Nick_Jones]

I understand what He was teaching, you claimed it was impossible (your word) that we do that, and it’s not.

It might be possible for some people at certain times to be willing to sell all of their possessions and give their money to the poor. As it turned out, this rich man (in Mark chapter 10) was not willing to do so. And are you any better than him? I know I’m not. Although I may never struggle with a love of money or an unhealthy sexual attraction, or a drug addiction, there are numerous other ways that I can, and DO, fail to seek first the kingdom. I’m quite capable in my flesh, of becoming extremely worldly, and following after worldly things instead of following Jesus.