Same sex marrage.

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I hope this question is allowed. Okay, a gay couple goes into a bakery. Small family owned mom and pop type bakery. Mom and pop are no holds barred, Catholic.

The gay couple order a wedding cake. Two little men in tux’s at the top. The words, " Love forever. Adan and Steve". There is no doubt. The baker knows the deal. The two men are homosexual’s, and they are getting hitched.

Is it a actual sin for the baker to make and sell such a cake? What about Scandal? If so, is it a mortal sin?

Can you help me on this one?:confused:
 
YipYupYep said:
I hope this question is allowed. Okay, a gay couple goes into a bakery. Small family owned mom and pop type bakery. Mom and pop are no holds barred, Catholic.

The gay couple order a wedding cake. Two little men in tux’s at the top. The words, " Love forever. Adan and Steve". There is no doubt. The baker knows the deal. The two men are homosexual’s, and they are getting hitched.

Is it a actual sin for the baker to make and sell such a cake? What about Scandal? If so, is it a mortal sin?

Can you help me on this one?:confused:
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Yes it’s a sin. Depending on how prominent the owners are, it may be a mortal sin.
 
It doesn’t seem like a sin to me. They are not really condoning the decision of the couple–just baking a cake that they are being paid to make.
 
I really hope it’s a mortal sin, because I’d hate to think all these business owners are discriminating just because they find gay people icky.
 
AyJSimon said:
I really hope it’s a mortal sin, because I’d hate to think all these business owners are discriminating just because they find gay people icky.
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Someone can believe something is a mortal sin even if its not.
 
I don’t think wedding cake-making for a gay couple is an absolute sin. A lot of people have stepped forward saying they will not make such a cake for such a couple - presumably because the cake makers would seem to send a message they do not want to send.

I’m torn, frankly, because both sides have made big stink about it. I don’t remember who started it, though I think it was the Christians. I think, for some Christians, it would be cooperation in mortal sin, or at least it would feel to be such to them. For others - not necessarily liberals - it would only be remotely related to a wedding.

What about Catholics? Well, we cannot cooperate in mortal sin, nor encourage it. The question is: is this cooperation or encouragement of mortal sin? The answer is, yes, to some degree.** How far a degree**, though - because not all degrees of involvement of sin are mortal or forbidden.

This article helped me determine my analysis here:Degrees of Cooperation with Evil

Well,** is making a cake immediate material cooperation?** No; you’d really have to be the couple claiming to get married to be doing that. Mediate material cooperation - assisting the act in some way? I think that would better describe, not even attending the wedding, but just baking a cake. So it might be morally neutral, although it might assist in an evil. Principle of double effect applies.

So we must then ask: is this mediate cooperation remote, or proximate? This might be debated. After all, a wedding cake is part of the paraphernalia of a wedding. But it doesn’t seem to be used in the wedding itself, so much as the after-parties. It could very well be considered** remote mediate material cooperation.**

If we consider it remote rather than proximate, the next question is:** is baking a cake essential or non-essential to the evil action?** That should be** perfectly clear:** it’s unnecessary. They could still decide to get “married” even if no one in the world would bake a cake for them. Only takes a judge and some words. So denying a cake isn’t exactly a potent move.

There is good reason to believe baking a cake for a gay couple’s so-called “wedding” is morally permissible by a Catholic baker. The only question is whether such a service would be proximate or remote. Depending on how one looks at it - wedding cakes are, after all, a conventional, traditional part of celebrating a wedding in our culture - it may, or may not be an occasion of sin to a man’s conscience.

Upon thinking about it, I don’t think it would be for me, if I made a living as a baker.
 
808Catholic said:
Yes it’s a sin. Depending on how prominent the owners are, it may be a mortal sin.
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How can we be so procscriptive? Where in the catechism does it say so? So if an ‘aldulterer’ comes into my store… for whatever… I should refuse to serve him?
 
I lean towards the opinion that it is probably sinful.

From the catechism:

1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
  • by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
  • by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
  • by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
  • by protecting evil-doers.
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I would see baking a cake as being the “approving” part of the sin of same sex “marriage,” because we understand that most contracts are entered into freely and a vendor does not accept a contract unless it is also to his or her benefit. When two parties sign a contract (one to perform a service and the other to pay for it), the assumption is that it benefits both parties. If a baker agrees to bake a wedding cake for two men, he is signalling that the commission he receives for the cake outweighs the inconvenience, cost, and in this case, moral reservations he has about baking that cake. I don’t think that is a fair cost/benefit analysis, because the moral reservations about baking a cake to celebrate a gay wedding are serious.

I agree that it could also be scandal, if he vendor’s name is available to wedding guests. And I think it is a matter of justice that the homosexual couple be confronted with the reality that what they are attempting is a violation of natural law.
 
eamonnroma said:
How can we be so procscriptive? Where in the catechism does it say so? So if an ‘aldulterer’ comes into my store… for whatever… I should refuse to serve him?
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It’s not that a person requesting a service is homosexual (or an adulterer or thief or whatever), it’s that the service being requested is to support an action (in this case, an invalid attempt at and mockery of marriage) that is sinful.

If you owned a cake shop and the adulterer wanted a birthday cake, you can of course sell him one. If you own a bed and breakfast and the adulterer wants to rent your room to spend the night with a prostitute, I think you should have moral reservations about renting that room to him.
 
It is a sin to knowingly assist others in sinning. It is called “material cooperation”. We incur sin ourselves by knowingly helping others to sin.
 
nodito said:
When two parties sign a contract (one to perform a service and the other to pay for it), the assumption is that it benefits both parties. If a baker agrees to bake a wedding cake for two men, he is signalling that the commission he receives for the cake outweighs the inconvenience, cost, and in this case, moral reservations he has about baking that cake.
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If he has moral reservations about baking cakes, he probably shouldn’t be a baker. At least not one that sells cakes.

Whether or not he bakes that cake, the couple will still get married.

Now refusing to affix an image of two grooms, or spell out a pro-gay marriage message on the cake is different. I can see why you might not want to do that, it is a simple sane and sensible right to demand with no obvious abuses. But if selling cakes, even to particular people, offends you, don’t sell cakes. 🤷
 
YipYupYep said:
I hope this question is allowed. Okay, a gay couple goes into a bakery. Small family owned mom and pop type bakery. Mom and pop are no holds barred, Catholic.

The gay couple order a wedding cake. Two little men in tux’s at the top. The words, " Love forever. Adan and Steve". There is no doubt. The baker knows the deal. The two men are homosexual’s, and they are getting hitched.

Is it a actual sin for the baker to make and sell such a cake? What about Scandal? If so, is it a mortal sin?

Can you help me on this one?:confused:
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Is helping others participate in a sin immoral?
 
DrTaffy said:
If he has moral reservations about baking cakes, he probably shouldn’t be a baker. At least not one that sells cakes. …

Now refusing to affix an image of two grooms, or spell out a pro-gay marriage message on the cake is different. I can see why you might not want to do that, it is a simple sane and sensible right to demand with no obvious abuses. But if selling cakes, even to particular people, offends you, don’t sell cakes. 🤷
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When we talk about “baking a cake” it seems reasonable to include in that service the groom toppers and pro-gay message. They seem part and parcel to me; not separate actions.

Again, it’s not that selling a cake to a particular person offends him, because if the gay couple wants a birthday cake or a baptism cake for their niece, or whatever, there shouldn’t be a problem. It’s that the cake is intended to celebrate something sinful and by accepting the contract, the baker is participating in and approving that event; even benefiting from it.

Also for the record, I don’t find the argument particularly compelling that a person must accept all jobs as equally moral just by virtue of their chosen profession. I think a pharmacist should be able to refuse to dispense certain drugs; I think a doctor should be allowed to refuse to perform certain procedures; I think a lawyer ahould be permitted to refuse certain cases; and I think a baker should be able to decline to bake certain cakes. I’ve never agreed with the argument that a religious person ought to avoid entire sectors of jobs simply because many people doing those same jobs regularly perform sinful actions.
 
1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
  • by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
  • by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
  • by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
  • by protecting evil-doers.
scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc.htm

“Here is that cake just in time for the celebration of your wedding”…

“Oh it is beautiful - thank you so much for all your work - this will contribute to making our day the happiest celebration”…

Baking a cake etc in celebration of a gay wedding is very different to say serving a hamburger to someone…

I too would decline such -with love and peace and good will - but decline it none the less.
 
do the motives of the homosexuals for asking the baker to bake the cake impact the morality of the baker’s response?

for example, the request could be entirely innocent and devoid of any contentious motivations. or, the request could be entirely devious and intended to put the baker in a difficult dilemma. or the request could be malevolent and intended to do damage to the baker.
 
eddie_too said:
do the motives of the homosexuals for asking the baker to bake the cake impact the morality of the baker’s response?

for example, the request could be entirely innocent and devoid of any contentious motivations. or, the request could be entirely devious and intended to put the baker in a difficult dilemma. or the request could be malevolent and intended to do damage to the baker.
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I think the intent of the buyer is irrelevant with regards to how the baker should react when the baker realizes he is participating in a sinful act
 
adawgj said:
Why would it be a mortal sin? For the sake of good conversation.
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My thinking was that who the bakery owners are in relation to the Catholic church would affect the type of sin. Say, hypothetically, the owner is the wife of a Deacon and the couple is well known in the Catholic community. Baking the cake may cause the appearance of scandal just because of who the baker is and who she’s married to. As an ordained minister and leader in the church, the Deacon may be leading others in the parish to believe the church endorses homosexual “marriage”. Does that make sense?
 
ignatius777 said:
I think the intent of the buyer is irrelevant with regards to how the baker should react when the baker realizes he is participating in a sinful act
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If it were not for the uproar that refusing to bake a cake has caused, I would not say baking a cake for a gay couple would necessarily be a sinful act.

See Post #7.
 
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