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adawgj
Guest
More or less, I just find it silly how there can be controversy over a cake. Of all the sins in the world.
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anonymous_in_fl
Guest
The sin is not in baking a cake. That would be silly indeed.
The sin occurs when Christians materially cooperate ( helping /aiding ) someone to sin.
We incur sin on ourselves by knowingly assisting others to sin. Scripture tells us it would be better that we have a millstone around our necks than to cause a little one to sin.
Christians are concerned about not only our eternal salvation but the eternal salvation of others. That is true charity.
Just because secular society allows all sorts of things (pornography, legalized prostitution, abortion, same-sex unions, multiple marriages/divorces, etc) does not mean it is not sinful.
Christians are called to a very different way of living.
There is nothing wrong with a Christian politely and charitably declining to bake a wedding cake for a same sex couple.
The sin occurs when Christians materially cooperate ( helping /aiding ) someone to sin.
We incur sin on ourselves by knowingly assisting others to sin. Scripture tells us it would be better that we have a millstone around our necks than to cause a little one to sin.
Christians are concerned about not only our eternal salvation but the eternal salvation of others. That is true charity.
Just because secular society allows all sorts of things (pornography, legalized prostitution, abortion, same-sex unions, multiple marriages/divorces, etc) does not mean it is not sinful.
Christians are called to a very different way of living.
There is nothing wrong with a Christian politely and charitably declining to bake a wedding cake for a same sex couple.
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ignatius777
Guest
Why does the uproar matter?
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TarkanAttila
Guest
Now many people would be scandalised by a Christian baker if said Christian baker did not stand with his fellow Christians. It would look as if we did not have solidarity.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
My question back to the OP is: Does it have to be a sin for one to say I choose not to participate in the celebration of a union that: (1) I do not believe to be in the best interests of the two people participating; (2) I do not believe to be in the best interests of society to recognize; and (3) that is a public attempt to legitimize a homosexual act, which my faith informs me is intrinsically and objectively immoral.
There is a clash of rights here. There are the rights of the same-sex couple to have their union recognized by the state (assuming they live in one of the 36 states that recognize so-called “gay marriage” or DC) But there are also the rights of the shop owners to the free exercise of religion. As the law presently stands, the gay couple, because they are the consumers and not the business owners, will prevail in most states that recognize their union under law, and services will have to be provided even if the shop owner objects to their status on religious grounds.
Further, the attempt to differentiate between status (as same-sex attracted) and conduct (so-called “gay wedding”) has not been recognized by the courts as of yet. My opinion is that the distinction is too fine to make an impact. Be that as it may, perhaps one alternative is the following, which would re-cast the clash of rights as a free speech issue.
Please consider the following:
A gay couple spoiling for a lawsuit enter a bakery they know is owned by a devout christian family. They let the owner know that they are a gay couple and demand a wedding cake for their ceremony. The owner asks them if they are sure they want to use his store, because he is personally opposed to the redefinition of marriage. The couple insists they want to go forward.
The baker hands the gay couple a written policy and agreement to be signed by them. This policy is the same policy presented to every customer that orders a wedding cake. It applies evenly and without regard to all customers regardless of race, nationality, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc, and states something like the following:
(a) the baker has absolute artistic control over the product that will be delivered, regardless of the stated desires of the customer; that the baker is the artist and his or her baked goods are an artistic expression protected under the First Amendment, and necessarily colored and impacted by his or her own thoughts, perceptions, ideas, beliefs, morals, and religious practices. This expression is owned in copyright by the baker, who retains absolute control over the finished product;
(b) the product will be warranted to comply with the food standards of the local district (i.e. it will be edible) and any and all other warranties, express or implied, are hereby waived;
(c) a full and non-refundable deposit is required at the time of ordering;
(d) any dispute between the customer and the owner will be resolved by binding arbitration, each party to pay its own fees and costs, with the customer waiving to the fullest extent allowed at law, any right to a trial.
NOTE: The above is not offered as legal advice, but merely to stimulate the conversation. The laws vary from state to state, and from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, so I do not warrant any of the above to be applicable in any given jurisdiction or state.
The baker tells the couple that it is store policy to obtain a signed agreement before any wedding cake is prepared, because it is an expensive process that requires not only a financial commitment by the store, but time and artistic talent to complete. Again, the baker reminds the couple that he has absolute creative control over every cake that leaves the store.
My guess is that if a baker required the above from every customer who purchased a wedding cake, in light of the current political climate, most would sign while the activist who walks in hoping to score some publicity and another easy legal win will move on to the next shop down the street.
Peace,
Robert
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nodito
Guest
Interesting take, Robert. And then, supposing the gay couple does sign, how do you propse the baker designs their wedding cake? Is the legal language just meant to scare them off or do you suggest that baker prepare a Christianized cake version or something else they may find distasteful?
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on_the_hill
Guest
“Steve! You won’t believe what just happened! The bakery refused to bake our cake! Better call your parents. This wedding is officially off!”
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Thomas1981
Guest
I’ve been a participant in the great gay cake debate for a few weeks now. Whether it is a sin or not I think depends on the circumstances. But, we need to take a stand that our religious consciences will not be trampled on by the secularists. Religious freedom must be defended with full vigor. My whole viewpoint on this has changed in the last few years. I lived in Montreal, Quebec for three years. This used to be a very Catholic place. Cathedrals are everywhere, all the streets (practically) are named after saints. But the churches are practically empty and no one could tell you who that saint is anymore. Why? Many reasons, but one is because the government has taken great pains to chase religion out of the public square and muffle the voices of Christians. Don’t think it isn’t going to happen here now that the balance of power has shifted. Christians need to unite and defend their rights to live out their faith. I’m going to continue the Jeremiad until people who don’t get it wake up to what we’re going to be facing if we don’t resist.
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Rohzek
Guest
I would argue that it is not. Recall Paul’s words to the Corinthians in similar circumstances (1 Cor. 8:4-8): “Therefore, concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and there is no other God but one…However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.”I hope this question is allowed. Okay, a gay couple goes into a bakery. Small family owned mom and pop type bakery. Mom and pop are no holds barred, Catholic.
The gay couple order a wedding cake. Two little men in tux’s at the top. The words, " Love forever. Adan and Steve". There is no doubt. The baker knows the deal. The two men are homosexual’s, and they are getting hitched.
Is it a actual sin for the baker to make and sell such a cake? What about Scandal? If so, is it a mortal sin?
Can you help me on this one?
I see no reason as to why the situation of baking the cake is any different from what Paul is talking about. You not making that cake isn’t going to stop the wedding from happening. You can oppose their marriage ceremony, but still make the cake. Just as you can oppose idolatry, but still eat the sacrifice. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.
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Thomas1981
Guest
Yes but Paul is not saying it is advisable either. He is asking us to consider how the act of eating the temple meats may affect the faith of others as well. The act in itself is not sinful but may cause others to sin (or it may not). Seems like a judgment call to me, a matter of individual conscience based on the circumstances.
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HDLSeanWileyTin
Guest
i for one am a libertarian. i don’t think it should be prohibited. in fact, i don’t think any marriage should be prohibited. marriage is a religious institute and should be kept out of government.
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HDLSeanWileyTin
Guest
i also saw that instead of denying them a cake, you should bake them two. for the bible says “if they make you go one mile, go with them two”
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nodito
Guest
That article assumes that there is nothing sinful about baking the cake. It begs the question. Jesus would not have asked us to sin. So it is either wrong or not wrong and if it is wrong, we can’t use that bible verse to justify our participation, any more than we could say, by way of crazy analogy: “If your boyfriend asks you to have sex with him, have sex with him twice.”
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BillP
Guest
Are all you folks who are so wrapped around the axle about a baker baking a cake for a same-sex wedding just as concerned about the baker refusing to bake a cake for the wedding of a couple living in sin?
How about a couple who have been married, legally divorced and are now getting remarried?
Or how about a Catholic getting married to a Protestant or other non-Catholic?
How about a couple who have been married, legally divorced and are now getting remarried?
Or how about a Catholic getting married to a Protestant or other non-Catholic?
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nodito
Guest
Hey Bill,
The issue is not the personal sin of the couple involved (if it were… how could the baker bake a cake for anyone?) but rather that the event itself is a public scandal that mocks real marriage and affirms something that violates natural law in a way that the heterosexual marriage does not.
Put another way, if the gay couple comes in to the bakery and asks for a birthday cake, I have no issue making them one. If the pope comes in and asks for a cake celebrating the opening of the newest Planned Parenthood, I would absolutely decline.
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BillP
Guest
Here is where, to me, the argument turns from religious sensibilities and piety to immoral discrimination. Unless the baker is consistently setting himself up as the moral arbiter in each and every wedding for which he is asked to bake a cake, he is treating homosexuals differently than other sinners.
If the baker is:
- Willing to make a cake for divorcees
- Willing to make a cake for cohabiters
- Willing to make a cake for undispensed mixed marriages
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SuperLuigi
Guest
People in these situations should consult a priest/spiritual director to find out what their obligation in this matter is.I hope this question is allowed. Okay, a gay couple goes into a bakery. Small family owned mom and pop type bakery. Mom and pop are no holds barred, Catholic.
The gay couple order a wedding cake. Two little men in tux’s at the top. The words, " Love forever. Adan and Steve". There is no doubt. The baker knows the deal. The two men are homosexual’s, and they are getting hitched.
Is it a actual sin for the baker to make and sell such a cake? What about Scandal? If so, is it a mortal sin?
Can you help me on this one?
Most questions like that on CAF really boil down to “what is my obligation?”.
The thing about mortal sin is that it may not be mortal if done under duress.One example is getting hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines from a state with a backwards perspective on sniveling claims :bighanky: of “equality”.
It could be a different story if the Catholic bakery was happy to do it and approved.
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SuperLuigi
Guest
First of all, I am not “all you folks”.
I’d be concerned about all of those, it’s just that an open homosexual couple is easier to notice.
My suggestion is to consult a spiritual director/priest on what to do if one knowingly encounters a situation involving a couple who is not validly married in the eyes of the Catholic Church.
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nodito
Guest
One could argue that charity requires us to assume the best in each situation, and that there’s no obligation to pry into personal situations. You might assume in charity that the divorcee has an annulment, assume the mixed marriage is of two non-Catholics or has been dispensed. (As an aside: what problem is there in two people who have been cohabitating getting married? I see none.) What is the best case scenario of two men or two women who want to publicly proclaim they are married? How can we assume that it is anything other than what they say it is?
But, for the record, if you happened to know that a potential client was requesting a wedding cake for their third or fourth wedding, and this was common knowledge likely to give scandal, etc, I do think you’re within your rights to decline to provide a service for that wedding.
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nodito
Guest
How could that be the case if the same baker was willing to bake any other cake for the homosexual couple besides a wedding cake?
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