Same sex marriage in Protestant churches

[JonNC]

Absolutely agree…those who are against same sex marriage…are strangely silent in comparison when the subject of heterosexual cohabitation and “illicit marriages”…but then…same sex marriage only effect a small minority of people…the latter effects a great portion of society and our fellowships…but as i stated… speaking against the “heteerosexual” issues in comparison…it’s strangly…silent.

And it shouldn’t be. Both are equally wrong. We get the same silence sometimes regarding teenaged boys. If he’s out there practing his homosexuality, there’s something wrong with him. If he’s our there practicing his heterosexuality, well then, wink wink nod nod, he’s “getting some” or “sowing his wild oats”.

It goes the other way, in the secular society. A congressman is found to be “socializing” with women, and its drum him out. Barney Frank, on the other hand, gets a pass.

No wonder our kids don’t know how to act in a civil society.

Jon

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JonNC,

I’m a bit fuzzy on the refereces you will be using to support your claim that, “… God is not specific regarding the combinations of genders involved”. However, I am more then willing to share with you items on where God obvoiously is specific - here are 3 non-Catholic sites (thought you may like a change of pace … ) that are clear as to God condemning homosexual behavior.

bible.ca/s-homo=sin.htm

religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/03/my-take-the-bible-really-does-condemn-homosexuality/

christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c040.html

God really does care…and he really is specific.

God bless

I think you make an important point here that kind of cuts both ways.
Scripture is clear about sexual relations outside of marriage, and it isn’t specific regarding the combinations of genders invloved. Outside of marriage it is a sin. Heterosexual and homosexual.
On the one hand, we cannot deceive ourselves into thinking that God has become hip with the times, and now thinks its ok. OTOH, we should also not deceive ourselves into thinking homosexual relations are worse than heterosexual relations outside of marriage.

Jon

 

[Publisher]

And it shouldn’t be. Both are equally wrong. We get the same silence sometimes regarding teenaged boys. If he’s out there practing his homosexuality, there’s something wrong with him. If he’s our there practicing his heterosexuality, well then, wink wink nod nod, he’s “getting some” or “sowing his wild oats”.

It goes the other way, in the secular society. A congressman is found to be “socializing” with women, and its drum him out. Barney Frank, on the other hand, gets a pass.

No wonder our kids don’t know how to act in a civil society.

Jon

While you an I are on opposite sides of this issue…I find my self again agreeing with our society’s “take” on these issues…it is grossly one sided…no wonder when there is such gross inequality in how people are treated…and how our faith is put…or not put into practice…we “confuse” those watching…and searching…and longing for answers that answer real life…we “wink wink” on one side…but hold marches against the other…we are not consistent in either.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Publisher,

You apparently have not been listening with both ears. St. Paul is really quite clear about all immoral behavior - and that would include adultery and fornication (whether involving cohabitation arrangements or not).

And, while all of the homosexuals on earth really do respresent a small percentage of all the people on earth - God created each of us and really is not into percentages, or condemning minorities for being minorities. God does, however, comdemn immoral behavior and I think this is the real focus.

Now, I gave JonNC some non-Catholic sites that are quite clear why homosexual behavior is comdemend in the Bible. Let me give you a Catholic site - that not only condemns homosexual behavior today - but, provides references where such behavior was condemned throughout the centuries. There is no ‘strangely quite’ element here. The Church of Christ, founded on Peter has been LOUD and CLEAR about immoral behavior.

So, I guess my question to you is, just why do you think one type of immorality is condemned and another is given a pass (don’t forget to look at 1Cor 6)?

God bless

Absolutely agree…those who are against same sex marriage…are strangely silent in comparison when the subject of heterosexual cohabitation and “illicit marriages”…but then…same sex marriage only effect a small minority of people…the latter effects a great portion of society and our fellowships…but as i stated… speaking against the “heteerosexual” issues in comparison…it’s strangly…silent.

I see a gross inequity between how “gay” people are treated and spoken of and how “straight” people in similar “moral” states…are addressed and treated.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, SteveVH,

While I’m inclined to agree with your statements - I am not really aware of any studies that actually document this link. Do you have some references.

God bless

While I don’t want to derail the topic of this thread, the “tyrany of the majority” is alive and well in the area of the most basic right we have; the right to life. It is the strong against the weak and defenseless, the unborn and the old. I would venture to say that the great majority of those who support gay “marriage” at the same time support abortion and are in favor of making the killing of an unborn child a “right”. Democracy has already become tyranny in this country and around the world.

Freedom does mean that we can do whatever we wish to do. It means that we have the right and the opportunity to do what we ought to do. Homosexuality is contrary to the natural law and is a disordered sexual tendency. Ecclessial communities that approve this behavior and wish to raise it up to the level of a sacrament in the interest of tolerance are in direct violation of God’s will in creating us as man and woman. Matrimony, which means “the making of a mother” (an impossiblitiy between members of the same sex) cannot be placed in the same classification as a homosexual relationship. When we close the sexual act to its ultimate purpose, the gift of life, we violate God’s will.

 

[JonNC]

Hi, JonNC,

I’m a bit fuzzy on the refereces you will be using to support your claim that, “… God is not specific regarding the combinations of genders involved”. However, I am more then willing to share with you items on where God obvoiously is specific - here are 3 non-Catholic sites (thought you may like a change of pace … ) that are clear as to God condemning homosexual behavior.

bible.ca/s-homo=sin.htm

religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/03/my-take-the-bible-really-does-condemn-homosexuality/

christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c040.html

God really does care…and he really is specific.

God bless

What I mean, Tom, is that both are condemned in scripture, not one or the other.

Jon

 

[Publisher]

Hi, Publisher,

You apparently have not been listening with both ears. St. Paul is really quite clear about all immoral behavior - and that would include adultery and fornication (whether involving cohabitation arrangements or not).

And, while all of the homosexuals on earth really do respresent a small percentage of all the people on earth - God created each of us and really is not into percentages, or condemning minorities for being minorities. God does, however, comdemn immoral behavior and I think this is the real focus.

Now, I gave JonNC some non-Catholic sites that are quite clear why homosexual behavior is comdemend in the Bible. Let me give you a Catholic site - that not only condemns homosexual behavior today - but, provides references where such behavior was condemned throughout the centuries. There is no ‘strangely quite’ element here. The Church of Christ, founded on Peter has been LOUD and CLEAR about immoral behavior.

So, I guess my question to you is, just why do you think one type of immorality is condemned and another is given a pass (don’t forget to look at 1Cor 6)?

God bless

Friend, we just don’t seem to be able to “communicate”…I find it difficult to “listen with both ears” when “two sides of one’s mouth is spoken out of”…not saying you have done so…I just do not “hear” a “consistant loving voice” when it comes to the subject of same sex marriage and GLBTQ discussions…“charity is left at home”…and misrepresentation of other’s positions seem to be the tactic usually taken.

We find ourselves on different sides of this issue…where you do not hear “silence” nor see “uncharitable” comments and behavior, I do…especially reflected in the lives of our gay brothers and sisters as they struggle to find a place in the Household of God…they find themselves on the outside of our faith communities…no wonder those times I have gone to MCC with friends…when the Eucharist is celebrated and the call to approach the Table of the Lord…“For it is He Himself who calls you forward…”…many “first timers” weep in amazement that God loves them…something they don’t ususally hear in faith communities…or from people of faith for the most part.

You may not see yourself in that light…I can’t imagine anyone would want to see themselves in the light many of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters lives testify toward…

Peace to you friend…I seriously doubt either of us will change our minds on the subject…but there is always hope from “my side” for “your side”…slowly heart and minds will change…dialog is so difficult and challenging…charity must be “brought along to the discussion” and no longer be “left at home”…

So…I am trying my best to speak charitably…honesly and from the heart…so again…peace to you friend.

 

[stewstew03]

While you an I are on opposite sides of this issue…I find my self again agreeing with our society’s “take” on these issues…it is grossly one sided…no wonder when there is such gross inequality in how people are treated…and how our faith is put…or not put into practice…we “confuse” those watching…and searching…and longing for answers that answer real life…we “wink wink” on one side…but hold marches against the other…we are not consistent in either.

When you say “we” do you mean Quakers? Honest question, I do not know who the “we” in your statement is… and I’m not sure who is winking at whom.

 

[Publisher]

When you say “we” do you mean Quakers? Honest question, I do not know who the “we” in your statement is… and I’m not sure who is winking at whom.

No…not only Friends but all people of faith fall into this at one time or another. In our more conservative fellowships…“our” as in “US HERE AS REPRESENTATIVES OF OUR FAITH COMMUNITIES”, we tend to rant and rave at the godless homosexuals and their threat on the sanctity of marriage…yet how many in “our” repsective congregations are divorced…living together…extra or premarital relationships…I wonder why “we”…as in all who denounce those who would “deny the sanctity of marriage” don’t speak out as forcefully…and clearly…and as routinely concerning those whom we tend to be friends with and move in the same social circles…yet we’ll march against gay and lesbian rights because we really have no gay or lesbian friends and acquaintences to lose fellowship with by being so “in your face”…

If one wishes to preserve the sanctity of marriage…don’t get a divorce…the 1-2% of gay people who want to get married aren’t a threat nearly as much as the 40% of marriages that end in divorce…even if that is 25% of the new marriages end in divorce…and the divorce rate is pretty consistant across the board…even in our faith communities…yet we decry the 1% of the 3-4% of the gay population that want to get married…

I see a gross inequity on the issue…maybe THAT is “Quaker”.

 

[Irishgal49]

No - only ELCA have conducted gay marriages.

Reform Judaism, UCC, Some United Methodist Clergy will officiate at them even if they can’t have them in their church building, Metropolitan Community Church (was started by a former United Methodist gay man who was rejected for ordination when it was found out he was gay so he started the MCC), many of these clergy will officiate in an out of church location.

 

[Publisher]

Reform Judaism, UCC, Some United Methodist Clergy will officiate at them even if they can’t have them in their church building, Metropolitan Community Church (was started by a former United Methodist gay man who was rejected for ordination when it was found out he was gay so he started the MCC), many of these clergy will officiate in an out of church location.

Actually Troy Perry was not UMC…but from a Pentacostal sect…

 

[stewstew03]

No…not only Friends but all people of faith fall into this at one time or another. In our more conservative fellowships…“our” as in “US HERE AS REPRESENTATIVES OF OUR FAITH COMMUNITIES”, we tend to rant and rave at the godless homosexuals and their threat on the sanctity of marriage…yet how many in “our” repsective congregations are divorced…living together…extra or premarital relationships…I wonder why “we”…as in all who denounce those who would “deny the sanctity of marriage” don’t speak out as forcefully…and clearly…and as routinely concerning those whom we tend to be friends with and move in the same social circles…yet we’ll march against gay and lesbian rights because we really have no gay or lesbian friends and acquaintences to lose fellowship with by being so “in your face”…

If one wishes to preserve the sanctity of marriage…don’t get a divorce…the 1-2% of gay people who want to get married aren’t a threat nearly as much as the 40% of marriages that end in divorce…even if that is 25% of the new marriages end in divorce…and the divorce rate is pretty consistant across the board…even in our faith communities…yet we decry the 1% of the 3-4% of the gay population that want to get married…

I see a gross inequity on the issue…maybe THAT is “Quaker”.

I see, and I tend to agree with you on this one. You do, however, have to pick your battles. And it appears the line in the sand has been drawn.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JonNC,

You had me worried there for a minute…

God bless

What I mean, Tom, is that both are condemned in scripture, not one or the other.

Jon

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Publisher,

I appreciate you speaking charitably. I would, however, appreciate you actually addressing the items I brought to your attention.

You initially claimed that the voices were not ‘loud’ when comdemning immoratilty - now, you want them to be ‘loving’. OK, I do not think anyone is speaking about hatred on this thread - what goes on beyond the theread is something that is distressing to all of us.

Did you have a chance to look at that link I provided to you? I think you will find that homosexuals are not condemned, but homosexual behavior (along with all immorality - but the thread topic is ‘gay marriage’) is condemned. The issue is behavior and not persons.

Sometimes ‘communications’ does not necessarily go on as we would like - but, it is a process, and not a destination.

God bless

Friend, we just don’t seem to be able to “communicate”…I find it difficult to “listen with both ears” when “two sides of one’s mouth is spoken out of”…not saying you have done so…I just do not “hear” a “consistant loving voice” when it comes to the subject of same sex marriage and GLBTQ discussions…“charity is left at home”…and misrepresentation of other’s positions seem to be the tactic usually taken.

We find ourselves on different sides of this issue…where you do not hear “silence” nor see “uncharitable” comments and behavior, I do…especially reflected in the lives of our gay brothers and sisters as they struggle to find a place in the Household of God…they find themselves on the outside of our faith communities…no wonder those times I have gone to MCC with friends…when the Eucharist is celebrated and the call to approach the Table of the Lord…“For it is He Himself who calls you forward…”…many “first timers” weep in amazement that God loves them…something they don’t ususally hear in faith communities…or from people of faith for the most part.

You may not see yourself in that light…I can’t imagine anyone would want to see themselves in the light many of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters lives testify toward…

Peace to you friend…I seriously doubt either of us will change our minds on the subject…but there is always hope from “my side” for “your side”…slowly heart and minds will change…dialog is so difficult and challenging…charity must be “brought along to the discussion” and no longer be “left at home”…

So…I am trying my best to speak charitably…honesly and from the heart…so again…peace to you friend.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Publisher,

Immorality is immorality - no real way to dress it up to make it appealing. It does not make any difference if majority groups engage in sin, or minority groups express themselves through public displays of promoting sin, it really is all immorality.

I agree with you, marriage is in serious trouble primarily because many do not want a committed relationship - and when difficulties appear, the weak disappear! Staying married is a something that our court system could encourage so that people attempt to work out their differences. Better yet, just remove the incentive for lawyers to be adversarial - but rather put the rewards in trying to repair the damaged marriage. But, that is just a wild thought on my part.

Now, in determing the seriousness of one threat to marriage versus another, I am really not sure how this would actually work in practice. You don’t really see, ‘Fornication Parades’ or Adultery Days’ as a Main Street activity. The same can not be said about ‘Gay Pride’ events. It could be that homosexual behavior is minority behavior in the sexual area - you’ve identified 3-4% (leaving 96-97% representing male/female relationship moral or immoral). Here is an intersting link on ‘gay rights’: ncfamily.org/FNC/0707S3.html

I am not entirely sure how one would attempt to present ‘equity’ into this situation. The thread identifies ‘gay marriage’ but, this is really a poor sham of what marriage is about. Sodomy does not produce children. Sodomy is harmful to the human body and provides increased risk for HIV transmission. Here is a link from the government’s own CDC: cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5937a2.htm. Homosexual behavior is dangerous - there is no cure for HIV. Traditonal marriage just does not produce the morbidity and mortality that so-called ‘gay marriage’ does. And this is just from a health (and not religious) perspective.

God bless

No…not only Friends but all people of faith fall into this at one time or another. In our more conservative fellowships…“our” as in “US HERE AS REPRESENTATIVES OF OUR FAITH COMMUNITIES”, we tend to rant and rave at the godless homosexuals and their threat on the sanctity of marriage…yet how many in “our” repsective congregations are divorced…living together…extra or premarital relationships…I wonder why “we”…as in all who denounce those who would “deny the sanctity of marriage” don’t speak out as forcefully…and clearly…and as routinely concerning those whom we tend to be friends with and move in the same social circles…yet we’ll march against gay and lesbian rights because we really have no gay or lesbian friends and acquaintences to lose fellowship with by being so “in your face”…

If one wishes to preserve the sanctity of marriage…don’t get a divorce…the 1-2% of gay people who want to get married aren’t a threat nearly as much as the 40% of marriages that end in divorce…even if that is 25% of the new marriages end in divorce…and the divorce rate is pretty consistant across the board…even in our faith communities…yet we decry the 1% of the 3-4% of the gay population that want to get married…

I see a gross inequity on the issue…maybe THAT is “Quaker”.

 

[Publisher]

I see, and I tend to agree with you on this one. You do, however, have to pick your battles. And it appears the line in the sand has been drawn.

Yes…and the “battles” we pick…are usually those that won’t affect our friends and family and relationships with those we share our lives daily. Can you imagine how your relationships would fare if you spoke out against those living in “sin” in your social circle…family…co-workers…or how empty your meeting houses would be if your priest or minister spoke out against heterosexual living arrangements and marital status’ as viciously and forcefully as many do concerning gay marriage…which really does not effect them too much…yet will polarize almost instantly.

The gross inequity to me is glaring…no wonder our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters think most “Christians” are hateful, hypocritical bigots when they won’t even clean up their own “house” before vilifying them for their lives…the “line in the sand” was drawn long long ago in the “straight community” where divorce and cohabitation are common place…yet not nearly the time and energy is given to “cleaning up” our “houses”…we’d rather clean up the 1-3% of a minority population and pat oursselves on the back for “standing up for truth”…a poor reflection of truth IMO…but my sentitments on the matter too is “Quaker”. I guess.

 

[Publisher]

Hi, Publisher,

Immorality is immorality - no real way to dress it up to make it appealing. It does not make any difference if majority groups engage in sin, or minority groups express themselves through public displays of promoting sin, it really is all immorality.

I agree with you, marriage is in serious trouble primarily because many do not want a committed relationship - and when difficulties appear, the weak disappear! Staying married is a something that our court system could encourage so that people attempt to work out their differences. Better yet, just remove the incentive for lawyers to be adversarial - but rather put the rewards in trying to repair the damaged marriage. But, that is just a wild thought on my part.

Now, in determing the seriousness of one threat to marriage versus another, I am really not sure how this would actually work in practice. You don’t really see, ‘Fornication Parades’ or Adultery Days’ as a Main Street activity. The same can not be said about ‘Gay Pride’ events. It could be that homosexual behavior is minority behavior in the sexual area - you’ve identified 3-4% (leaving 96-97% representing male/female relationship moral or immoral). Here is an intersting link on ‘gay rights’: ncfamily.org/FNC/0707S3.html

I am not entirely sure how one would attempt to present ‘equity’ into this situation. The thread identifies ‘gay marriage’ but, this is really a poor sham of what marriage is about. Sodomy does not produce children. Sodomy is harmful to the human body and provides increased risk for HIV transmission. Here is a link from the government’s own CDC: cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5937a2.htm. Homosexual behavior is dangerous - there is no cure for HIV. Traditonal marriage just does not produce the morbidity and mortality that so-called ‘gay marriage’ does. And this is just from a health (and not religious) perspective.

God bless

Yet the largest sufferers of HIV infection aren’t gay men…homosexual sex does not spead HIV infection…promiscoutiy does…the largest population of people infected with HIV is by far…“straight”…and rising.

That the false hood is still being touted that “gays spread disease” for me is very telling…HIV/AIDS is not a gay disease…two un-infected gay men can “sodomize” each other 'till the cows come home…and NEVER contract HIV…but to continue to associate the AIDS epidemic with gay people…is sharing in a falsehood that colors this discussion.

I hear so often that “truth” matters…yet obviously not when it comes to how we deal with same sex marriage and a world wide health issue…we wonder why the GLBTQ community sees “Christians” as hypocrits…and pose their arguements in sensationalism and falsehoods…even partial falsehoods.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Publisher,

Have you noticed that you are quite passionate on prventing falsehood about homosexual behavior - but have yet to produce any references in support of your idea. Sodomy is harmful to the body (having nothing to do with the problems caused by HIV/AIDS) here are two links:

ezinearticles.com/?The-Dangers-of-Anal-Sex—Know-Why-to-Avoid-It&id=4846722

netdoctor.co.uk/sexandrelationships/analsex.htm

Actually, in my opinion, you are quite mistaken by spreading the falsehood that “…HIV/AIDS is not a gay disease…” The history of HIV/AIDS in the USA is totally linked to homosexual behavior:

avert.org/aids-history-america.htm

aids.about.com/cs/aidsfactsheets/a/hivhis.htm

library.thinkquest.org/10631/allabout/history.htm

I really would appreciate you moving beyond anecdotal expeiences (important, yes, but they do limit one’s view of the big picture) and address larger issues.

God bless

Yet the largest sufferers of HIV infection aren’t gay men…homosexual sex does not spead HIV infection…promiscoutiy does…the largest population of people infected with HIV is by far…“straight”…and rising.

That the false hood is still being touted that “gays spread disease” for me is very telling…HIV/AIDS is not a gay disease…two un-infected gay men can “sodomize” each other 'till the cows come home…and NEVER contract HIV…but to continue to associate the AIDS epidemic with gay people…is sharing in a falsehood that colors this discussion.

I hear so often that “truth” matters…yet obviously not when it comes to how we deal with same sex marriage and a world wide health issue…we wonder why the GLBTQ community sees “Christians” as hypocrits…and pose their arguements in sensationalism and falsehoods…even partial falsehoods.

 

[Publisher]

Hi, Publisher,

Have you noticed that you are quite passionate on prventing falsehood about homosexual behavior - but have yet to produce any references in support of your idea. Sodomy is harmful to the body (having nothing to do with the problems caused by HIV/AIDS) here are two links:

ezinearticles.com/?The-Dangers-of-Anal-Sex—Know-Why-to-Avoid-It&id=4846722

netdoctor.co.uk/sexandrelationships/analsex.htm

Actually, in my opinion, you are quite mistaken by spreading the falsehood that “…HIV/AIDS is not a gay disease…” The history of HIV/AIDS in the USA is totally linked to homosexual behavior:

avert.org/aids-history-america.htm

aids.about.com/cs/aidsfactsheets/a/hivhis.htm

library.thinkquest.org/10631/allabout/history.htm

I really would appreciate you moving beyond anecdotal expeiences (important, yes, but they do limit one’s view of the big picture) and address larger issues.

God bless

Friend Tom…I notice a lot of things…peace to you friend.