same sex marriage question for all faiths.

[Kaninchen]

Traditional Torah Judaism states that homosexual behavior, whether inside or outside of marriage, is a sin. The Torah explicitly rejects male homosexual behavior. No Orthodox Jew I know of would state the behavior is not sinful, but some may be more sympathetic than others toward people who have same-sex attraction. Female homosexual behavior is implicitly forbidden by Torah Law, but not explicitly. On the other hand, Reform Judaism does not regard either male or female homosexual behavior as a sin. This is not so surprising since Reform Judaism does not believe most of the Torah commandments are binding for modern Jews. There are also arguments in Reform Judaism to justify this position using Torah verses. Conservative Jews are, for the most part, opposed to homosexual relationships; but some are not in opposition. I’m not sure what the current official position of the Conservative branch of Judaism is regarding homosexuality. Thus Judaism is split on the issue.

There is an interesting side-issue though. While we could say that the Torah forbids homosexual behavior, non-Jews are not bound by the Torah Covenant, so how should we view ‘homosexual marriage’ between non-Jews?

 

[Publisher]

Now let us not fool ourself. It is indeed a sin to have sex with the same sex as oneself.

Before we go any further lets hear it straight from the word of God.

Lev. 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as a women such a thing is an abomination.

Now there is no way we can misunderstand that scripture. ITs as plain as day. Its indeed a sin for 2 people of the same sex to engage in sexual activity.

Now if God said that it is an abomination which indeed means a sin, how can we as Christians say its okay.

Thats really what I am trying to get an answer to. If we say its okay and over look the sin are we a disgrace to our God by doing so.

I mean do we not have to answer for ourself also.

When we meet God and he says what did I say and did you stick up for me and my word, what are we going to say to him. What I am asking is what about our actions? Are we responsible for them.

Is it not the hardest thing to do in this world to stick up for our Lord. Did he not tell us if we do we will be HATED?

Actually Rinnie…it is not plain as day…that’s the issue…cultural and religious prohibitions that reflect a mindset that NEVER understood sexuality and orientation IS the issue.

I accept that the passage in Leviticus forbids men engaging in sexual relations within a pagan religious practice. The verses preceeding the one you quote…AND the whole purpose that Leviticus was written shines light on the issue…

 

[Esdra]

My question is this. If you support same sex marriage no matter what faith you are, would that not be the same as supporting a sin?

God said in Leviticus 18:22 that same sex couples are a sin.

However, IMO, those people can’t help being attracted by the same sex. So, from my perspective, they can live together as a “couple”. I don’t have a problem with that.

But I am strongly against that they are allowed to marry in some Churches! Marriage is only possible between a man and woman. (cf. Genesis 1:27-29)

 

[meltzerboy]

Also let me be more clear in my question.

Does it become our sin to accept a couple who are of the same sex and engage in sexual acts and marry. Thats really my question?

Judaism does not believe that sin is transferable, that is, one does not inherit the sins of others, nor can anyone inherit our sins. (There is no concept of “original sin” in Judaism.) Depending on what you mean by “accept,” if one treats the couple with love and respect, there is nothing sinful in that according to Torah Judaism. If you mean one accepts their lifestyle as moral and tells them you are fine with their marriage, that’s another issue for Orthodox Jews. As I stated before, for Reform Judaism same-sex marriage is not sinful, so there’s no issue at all.

 

[Publisher]

My question is this. If you support same sex marriage no matter what faith you are, would that not be the same as supporting a sin?

Does your faith teach you to respect and act lovingly toward those you find objectionable…or does it teach you otherwise…that is the question IMO

 

[rinnie]

Does your faith teach you to respect and act lovingly toward those you find objectionable…or does it teach you otherwise…that is the question IMO

We are taught to love the sinner hate the sin. So back to the question at hand would me accepting this sin make me in a odd way become a part of it?

 

[rinnie]

Judaism does not believe that sin is transferable, that is, one does not inherit the sins of others, nor can anyone inherit our sins. (There is no concept of “original sin” in Judaism.) Depending on what you mean by “accept,” if one treats the couple with love and respect, there is nothing sinful in that according to Torah Judaism. If you mean one accepts their lifestyle as moral and tells them you are fine with their marriage, that’s another issue for Orthodox Jews. As I stated before, for Reform Judaism same-sex marriage is not sinful, so there’s no issue at all.

Tell me meltzerboy when did God change it?

 

[meltzerboy]

There is an interesting side-issue though. While we could say that the Torah forbids homosexual behavior, non-Jews are not bound by the Torah Covenant, so how should we view ‘homosexual marriage’ between non-Jews?

Good point, and I’m not sure. In Torah Judaism, does homosexuality rise to the level of a basic moral precept such as murder and theft? If so, then it would be forbidden among non-Jews.

 

[Publisher]

We are taught to love the sinner hate the sin. So back to the question at hand would me accepting this sin make me in a odd way become a part of it?

How would treating someone with respect and kindness be “accepting this sin”? Do you have a stake in their sex lives? Do they have a stake in yours? Is it your business? Do you interview all of your friends to determine if they break your church’s law in some way before you share company with them? Not sure how being friends…sharing a meal…exchanging pleasantries with them is “accepting the sin”.

Question…do you have any friends or acquaintences that practice ABC?

 

[FromTheAshes777]

giving a thumbs up or stamp of approval to a persons sinfulness and offense against God is not loving or kind in any way

it is comparable to cheering someone as they leap off of a cliff to commit suicide…only much much worse.

 

[rinnie]

Judaism does not believe that sin is transferable, that is, one does not inherit the sins of others, nor can anyone inherit our sins. (There is no concept of “original sin” in Judaism.) Depending on what you mean by “accept,” if one treats the couple with love and respect, there is nothing sinful in that according to Torah Judaism. If you mean one accepts their lifestyle as moral and tells them you are fine with their marriage, that’s another issue for Orthodox Jews. As I stated before, for Reform Judaism same-sex marriage is not sinful, so there’s no issue at all.

And you are missing my point. As you stated you feel it is not a sin. According to the word of God it is, with that said if you felt it was indeed a sin, do you feel you are playing your part in it by either ignoring it, or minding your own business etc.

Or do you feel by letting it go on and closing your eyes and not acknowledging it is indeed a sin making you somehow a part of it. Thats all I am asking?

I am not saying being mean or anything like that. But saying I do not believe in this it goes against my faith be wrong NOT TO SAY?

 

[Publisher]

giving a thumbs up or stamp of approval to a persons sinfulness and offense against God is not loving or kind in any way

it is comparable to cheering someone as they leap off of a cliff to commit suicide…only much much worse.

Again…is showing loving kindness and respect “cheering someone on”…how is being kind, loving and respectful…sharing a friendship “giving a thumbs up” or “stamp of approval”?

Are all of your prospective “friends” interviewed before you offer your friendship to insure they have no 'objectionable sins" according to your faith tradition in their lives?

I’m having a hard time getting my head around how other people’s sex lives is any of my business.

 

[rinnie]

There is an interesting side-issue though. While we could say that the Torah forbids homosexual behavior, non-Jews are not bound by the Torah Covenant, so how should we view ‘homosexual marriage’ between non-Jews?

Just because Jesus fulfilled the O.C. and gave us the N.C. How does that change the word of God? Where did Jesus ever change this teaching?

 

[meltzerboy]

Tell me meltzerboy when did God change it?

Reform Judaism offers a re-interpretation of Torah teaching, which Torah Judaism strongly believes is not subject to change. Christianity offers another re-interpretation of Torah teaching, does it not?

 

[Publisher]

And you are missing my point. As you stated you feel it is not a sin. According to the word of God it is, with that said if you felt it was indeed a sin, do you feel you are playing your part in it by either ignoring it, or minding your own business etc.

Or do you feel by letting it go on and closing your eyes and not acknowledging it is indeed a sin making you somehow a part of it. Thats all I am asking?

I am not saying being mean or anything like that. But saying I do not believe in this it goes against my faith be wrong NOT TO SAY?

Again…do you interview your perspective friends to see if they practice ABC or oral sex where the male does not “finish” in the female partner? Do you make heterosexual sex lives part of your need to “NOT TO SAY”?

 

[Kaninchen]

Good point, and I’m not sure. In Torah Judaism, does homosexuality rise to the level of a basic moral precept such as murder and theft? If so, then it would be forbidden among non-Jews.

Sodomy probably comes under ‘sexual immorality’ in the Noah Covenant but that wouldn’t cover lesbian couples - I’m afraid it’s one of the many things I tend to consign to the ‘somebody else’s problem’ file in my mind.

 

[meltzerboy]

Just because Jesus fulfilled the O.C. and gave us the N.C. How does that change the word of God? Where did Jesus ever change this teaching?

Rinnie, your comment really belongs under my post! You misinterpreted the meaning of the post here. According to JEWISH teaching, non-Jews are not bound by all of the Torah commandments of the Covenant.

 

[Kaninchen]

Just because Jesus fulfilled the O.C. and gave us the N.C. How does that change the word of God? Where did Jesus ever change this teaching?

This thread doesn’t ask what Christians think we ought to think, rinnie, it’s about what we think.

 

[rinnie]

Again…is showing loving kindness and respect “cheering someone on”…how is being kind, loving and respectful…sharing a friendship “giving a thumbs up” or “stamp of approval”?

Are all of your prospective “friends” interviewed before you offer your friendship to insure they have no 'objectionable sins" according to your faith tradition in their lives?

I’m having a hard time getting my head around how other people’s sex lives is any of my business.

You are missing my point completely.

Let me ask you the question again more clear. But you answered my question I believe on your part.

Correct me if I am wrong but you feel minding your own business and turning your head would be okay with God.

I am not judging your answer Pub I am only asking people’s response to this question is all.

Do we have OUR part in this world today to spread Gods word or not? Is minding your own business doing it? Thats all I am asking.

 

[Publisher]

This thread doesn’t ask what Christians think we ought to think, rinnie, it’s about what we think.

And those of us who do accept gay people as a natural expression of human sexuality do not believe the Hebrew scriptures even addresses same sex relationships…the passages given no more are indictments against loving same sex unions than the passage where Lot has a drunken orgy with his daughters is an indictment on heterosexual relationships unions…at least IMO.