same sex marriage question for all faiths.

[lazydaisy67]

There’s certainly a different between condoning a sin and being nice to people. I have a gay sister-in-law. Invited my family to her “wedding”, we did not attend. However, we treat her with kindness and respect and care for her as a person. She is welcome in my home at any time. I do not believe that homosexuality is ok, nor do I teach my children that it is. In the same way, I invite people I know to be cohabiting outside of marriage into my home. I think having sex outside of marriage is a sin as well, but I can certainly treat kindly the people who choose to do so. If you eliminate ‘sinners’ from your life based on the fact that they’re sinning you’d be quite alone.

 

[minkymurph]

There is no doubt that same sex marriage presents a dilemma.

I would say that under purely secular law it doesn’t present a legal problem. In conjunction with human rights, a person should have the right to have someone of their choosing legally recognized as their beneficiary. Of course they can do that by leaving a will and don’t have to recognized by the state as married.

The question then is should the state recognize them as married? This is were the difficulty lies. If same sex marriage is not permitted for purely religious reasons, it has to be asked how far the state should go to uphold religious beliefs. Other questions could be asked such as; why not allow polygamy, or three persons marrying? The question has also been raised that if someone has a religious objection to same sex marriage, can or should the state compel them to perform the marriage if that is their job?

From a religious perspective, the Catholic Church cannot marry same sex couples because to Catholics, marriage is a sacrament. In the sacrament of marriage the form is a man and a woman, just as in baptism water is used and not coca-cola. A secular marriage is not a sacramental marriage. That being the case, if a marriage is some form of contract between two people, what objection could be raised to same sex marriage other than religious? Very intense debates has resulted in relation to these questions. In the absence of religious arguments, it is very difficult to find a resolution.

 

[Publisher]

You are missing my point completely.

Let me ask you the question again more clear. But you answered my question I believe on your part.

Correct me if I am wrong but you feel minding your own business and turning your head would be okay with God.

I am not judging your answer Pub I am only asking people’s response to this question is all.

Do we have OUR part in this world today to spread Gods word or not? Is minding your own business doing it? Thats all I am asking.

"I’d rather “see” a sermon than hear one.’ I hope my life “speaks” to the Truth of God. If someone under the care of the Meeting came and asked me for “clearness” on a particular matter…I would speak to them concerning the issue they wish to discuss.

I’m trying to get my head around what do you mean by “accept” the offensive party when my opinion is not asked on the matter…if no one is asking me to participate in same sex unions…and since I and my particular faith tradition embrace same sex marriage/unions as a natural and amoral expression of diverse human sexuality…and since no one in these unions are exploited or abused but have been entered into through a mutual desire to share their lives…

I have been requested in the past to sit on a “clearness committee” and “elder” a couple having marital difficulties and were considering divorce…my response was “Take divorce off the table and work through your difficulties. You have pledged yourselves to one another “in the Presence of God and these Friends” on your wedding day.” If they had chose to still divorce…they would not have been excluded from Meeting…and even though I believed they were wrong…IT IS NOT MY BUSINESS to speak to them of the “sin of divorce” every time we meet…why would anyone need to “challenge” a gay couple concerning their marriage/union if not asked?

The first thing that popped into my mind when asked about acceptance was…do you ‘accept’ divorced couples as friends or do you shun them? Do you continue your friendships with women who use ABC or are they shunned? Is there a separate standard when dealing with same-sex couples who in your opinion are “sinning” than opposite sex couples who are in your opinion “sinning”?

My understanding of the background of the question was do you consider “acceptance” of gay couples wrong by simply being kind, loving and respectful toward them?

 

[Publisher]

There’s certainly a different between condoning a sin and being nice to people. I have a gay sister-in-law. Invited my family to her “wedding”, we did not attend. However, we treat her with kindness and respect and care for her as a person. She is welcome in my home at any time. I do not believe that homosexuality is ok, nor do I teach my children that it is. In the same way, I invite people I know to be cohabiting outside of marriage into my home. I think having sex outside of marriage is a sin as well, but I can certainly treat kindly the people who choose to do so. If you eliminate ‘sinners’ from your life based on the fact that they’re sinning you’d be quite alone.

Friend you speak my mind.

 

[Publisher]

If the conversation of ABC were to come up with my straight friends, then yes, I would share with them what the Catholic church teaches. I would always assume that practicing catholics who follow the churches teaching are not using ABC. The difference, IMO, is this: when two people of the same sex express their love for one another and choose to live with one another**, I am making the assumption that they are not living chastely.** I would assume the same for a straight couple living together. As a catholic, I would encourage both parties to reconsider their state of life.

Is that not the Catholic “sin of presumtion”? Just asking…

You may encourage both parties to reconsider…but if your “encouragement” was seen as “none of your business”…would you treat them differently? Trying to understand what is meant by “accept sin”…

 

[lazydaisy67]

There is no doubt that same sex marriage presents a dilemma.

I would say that under purely secular law it doesn’t present a legal problem. In conjunction with human rights, a person should have the right to have someone of their choosing legally recognized as their beneficiary. Of course they can do that by leaving a will and don’t have to recognized by the state as married.

The question then is should the state recognize them as married? This is were the difficulty lies. If same sex marriage is not permitted for purely religious reasons, it has to be asked how far the state should go to uphold religious beliefs. Other questions could be asked such as; why not allow polygamy, or three persons marrying? The question has also been raised that if someone has a religious objection to same sex marriage, can or should the state compel them to perform the marriage if that is their job?

From a religious perspective, the Catholic Church cannot marry same sex couples because to Catholics, marriage is a sacrament. In the sacrament of marriage the form is a man and a woman, just as in baptism water is used and not coca-cola. A secular marriage is not a sacramental marriage. That being the case, if a marriage is some form of contract between two people, what objection could be raised to same sex marriage other than religious? Very intense debates has resulted in relation to these questions. In the absence of religious arguments, it is very difficult to find a resolution.

This is exactly why the push for the legalization of same-sex marriages. If one party of an unmarried couple dies and leaves in his or her will that all their assets go to their “partner” the family members of the deceased person may contest that will and the courts can and have found in the favor of the family members when the “marriage” of the parties was not recognized as legal. In addition, the “partner” of an ill person does not have the legal right to make medical decisions for their loved one purely based on the fact that they are partners. Again, family members can step in and take control. You can name anybody you want to as your beneficiary for a life insurance policy, but other insurance benefits aren’t offered to ‘unmarried’ couples through most jobs, so that’s another reason they would like to be recognized as legally married. One gay person I know simply said that most gay couples don’t want to get married, they just don’t want people telling them that they can’t. I think that sums it up perfectly.

 

[CMatt25]

Matt the reason there is no right and wrong answer because how can I tell you are wrong if you tell me you do not think it is right for you to spead Gods word to someone. Thats your opinion. Are you not entitiled to it.

I am not asking what the word of God says. I know what the word of God says. I am asking what you get out of it on a personal level and what you feel God is telling you.

As Publisher said she feels that God is telling her to mind her own business. ANd thats cool with me. How can I tell Pub that NO that is not what your opinion is Pub. Come on Matt.

No one can call anyone on this. I am asking personal opinions here. But I am asking them based on using their own faith, own heart, and what they feel God is telling them personally in their own heart.

I am not asking if it wrong. As I said I know quite clear the word of God.

Again what is God telling your heart. Thats all Matt! What do YOU feel GOD expects of you. Thats it.

But Rinnie here’s the problem. You say you are not asking what God’s word is because you know quite clearly what God is saying and thus what it is for you to spread. But someone like Publisher believes God is saying something differently to spread. And has spread to you what he believes God is saying regarding homosexuality in verses which have been presented. I do commend you for your words “based on using their own faith, own heart” but I just think it’s good to remember that applies across the board. God bless you Rinnie and peace.

 

[kathmandu]

I don’t believe it is a sin. If two people are devoted to each other for life no matter what their sexual orientation is, they deserve the rights that all other couples are entitled to. It is the only loving, Christian way to approach it.

What I don’t understand is why we would be concerned with other people’s choices in life. We need to be involved in our own salvation, not worrying about if others are committing sins or not.

 

[rinnie]

"I’d rather “see” a sermon than hear one.’ I hope my life “speaks” to the Truth of God. If someone under the care of the Meeting came and asked me for “clearness” on a particular matter…I would speak to them concerning the issue they wish to discuss.

I’m trying to get my head around what do you mean by “accept” the offensive party when my opinion is not asked on the matter…if no one is asking me to participate in same sex unions…and since I and my particular faith tradition embrace same sex marriage/unions as a natural and amoral expression of diverse human sexuality…and since no one in these unions are exploited or abused but have been entered into through a mutual desire to share their lives…

I have been requested in the past to sit on a “clearness committee” and “elder” a couple having marital difficulties and were considering divorce…my response was “Take divorce off the table and work through your difficulties. You have pledged yourselves to one another “in the Presence of God and these Friends” on your wedding day.” If they had chose to still divorce…they would not have been excluded from Meeting…and even though I believed they were wrong…IT IS NOT MY BUSINESS to speak to them of the “sin of divorce” every time we meet…why would anyone need to “challenge” a gay couple concerning their marriage/union if not asked?

The first thing that popped into my mind when asked about acceptance was…do you ‘accept’ divorced couples as friends or do you shun them? Do you continue your friendships with women who use ABC or are they shunned? Is there a separate standard when dealing with same-sex couples who in your opinion are “sinning” than opposite sex couples who are in your opinion “sinning”?

My understanding of the background of the question was do you consider “acceptance” of gay couples wrong by simply being kind, loving and respectful toward them?

Oh no Pub. Thats not what I meant at all. Pretty much what you said is what I meant.

I never mean go up to someone and say YOU ARE A SINNER! Nothing like that. Mine was simply what do we feel our job is when this issue comes face to face to us. What do you feel is our duty to GOD to say.

Is it to say more or less whatever floats your boat. Or is it to say I FEEL that according to the word of God it is wrong. But my point is we both know when someone asks our opinion and we do not give the opinion they want to hear all hell breaks loose. But what do we do? Put ourself out there or take the easy way out.

But my objective was to see how people really in this world DO deal with these problems. Not what should we do, what do we REALLY DO! How are we as Christians really dealing with these problems.

ANd maybe someone who is reading this, and really does not know how do deal can see different opinions is all.

You know my mind Pub always ticking!!

 

[Publisher]

Oh no Pub. Thats not what I meant at all. Pretty much what you said is what I meant.

I never mean go up to someone and say YOU ARE A SINNER! Nothing like that. Mine was simply what do we feel our job is when this issue comes face to face to us. What do you feel is our duty to GOD to say.

Is it to say more or less whatever floats your boat. Or is it to say I FEEL that according to the word of God it is wrong. But my point is we both know when someone asks our opinion and we do not give the opinion they want to hear all hell breaks loose. But what do we do? Put ourself out there or take the easy way out.

But my objective was to see how people really in this world DO deal with these problems. Not what should we do, what do we REALLY DO! How are we as Christians really dealing with these problems.

ANd maybe someone who is reading this, and really does not know how do deal can see different opinions is all.

You know my mind Pub always ticking!!

Ahhhh…I think I understand now much better. I have an obligation to speak and live in Truth…truth without love is brutality IMO…where there is no compassion…especially toward those we consider “sinning” is more of an indictment against us than it is against the “sinner”…

I always go back and read the passage in Luke about the Publican and the Sinner…puts it in perspective for me.

 

[CMatt25]

I don’t believe it is a sin. If two people are devoted to each other for life no matter what their sexual orientation is, they deserve the rights that all other couples are entitled to. It is the only loving, Christian way to approach it.

What I don’t understand is why we would be concerned with other people’s choices in life. We need to be involved in our own salvation, not worrying about if others are committing sins or not.

Speaking of the word of God, didn’t God say something to this same effect in Matthew 7? To worry about the log in our own eyes?

 

[rinnie]

I don’t believe it is a sin. If two people are devoted to each other for life no matter what their sexual orientation is, they deserve the rights that all other couples are entitled to. It is the only loving, Christian way to approach it.

What I don’t understand is why we would be concerned with other people’s choices in life. We need to be involved in our own salvation, not worrying about if others are committing sins or not.

Well first no disrepect I am not Asking YOU if you think it is a sin or not. That is not the issue at hand.

But to answer your last question let me tell you why it can be a concern. Say you don’t agree with it and you have no way of escaping it. Say a family member or close friend.

Now okay its none of my business. But what does that teach your child about sin? Forget the same marriage, make it drugs, make it alcohol, make it any sin you want. Do you say it is unacceptable and can’t be done around me and my family. Or its none of my business?

If you feel something is a sin does it matter what sin it is? Is sin not sin? And if your heart tells you it is, do you accept it from others and do nothing or let it be known it is unacceptable. Thats the question.

 

[CMatt25]

Well first no disrepect I am not Asking YOU if you think it is a sin or not. That is not the issue at hand.

But to answer your last question let me tell you why it can be a concern. Say you don’t agree with it and you have no way of escaping it. Say a family member or close friend.

Now okay its none of my business. But what does that teach your child about sin? Forget the same marriage, make it drugs, make it alcohol, make it any sin you want. Do you say it is unacceptable and can’t be done around me and my family. Or its none of my business?

If you feel something is a sin does it matter what sin it is? Is sin not sin? And if your heart tells you it is, do you accept it from others and do nothing or let it be known it acceptable. Thats the question.

Rinnie, if kathmandu does not believe it is sin, then acceptance teaches his/her child nothing about sin because it is not believed to be sin in the first place. In your case you believe it is sin so I guess teach your child how you want him or her to believe and he or she can decide later what they believe as they grow and mature. Is sin not sin? Aparently sins are not created equally if there are venial and mortal ones.

 

[rinnie]

Speaking of the word of God, didn’t God say something to this same effect in Matthew 7? To worry about the log in our own eyes?

Speaking of the word of God how about this one Matt! luke 17:3

 

[Publisher]

Speaking of the word of God how about this one Matt! luke 17:3

Just my own opinion…but anyone else having a same sex relaionship…or getting a divorce…or stealing a car(unless it’s my car)…is not a sin against me…how does this verse apply to the discussion? You have me intrigued now.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, if kathmandu does not believe it is sin, then acceptance teaches his/her child nothing about sin because it is not believed to be sin in the first place. In your case you believe it is sin so I guess teach your child how you want him or her to believe and he or she can decide later what they believe as they grow and mature. Is sin not sin? Aparently sins are not created equally if there are venial and mortal ones.

What does that have to do with sin being wrong. Rather one destroys charity with God and the other wounds it, is it still not sin?

 

[Kristin234]

What I don’t understand is why we would be concerned with other people’s choices in life. We need to be involved in our own salvation, not worrying about if others are committing sins or not.

We shouldn’t condemn or judge people if we see that they are sinning, but Jesus tells us to minister to others and to teach them to obey everything he has commanded. In Galatians it tells us if someone is caught in a sin we are to restore them gently.

 

[rinnie]

Just my own opinion…but anyone else having a same sex relaionship…or getting a divorce…or stealing a car(unless it’s my car)…is not a sin against me…how does this verse apply to the discussion? You have me intrigued now.

Glad you asked because this is the whole idea of this thread. When you come in contact with it in your lives, no matter how, what is your duty to God. Do you sit back and shut your mouth or speak up and say according to the word of God its wrong.

Anotherwards saying As much as I love you, I cannot accept what you are doing. Its wrong according to my faith and my belief.

What is God asking of us? To shut up and let or go? OR say I am sorry it is wrong. Does God want us to stand up for right or wrong today? What is you heart saying to YOU. Thats all I am asking?

 

[rinnie]

We shouldn’t condemn or judge people if we see that they are sinning, but Jesus tells us to minister to others and to teach them to obey everything he has commanded. In Galatians it tells us if someone is caught in a sin we are to restore them gently.

A simple honest answer. Rather others feel it is right or wrong it is her answer and opinion. Thats what I am asking.

Now Kristin do you do your best to live up to this answer. Or do you agree that if you do it is so hard to do at times in this world?

Do you notice that when you speak out against sin you are the bad guy?

 

[Publisher]

Glad you asked because this is the whole idea of this thread. When you come in contact with it in your lives, no matter how, what is your duty to God. Do you sit back and shut your mouth or speak up and say according to the word of God its wrong.

Anotherwards saying As much as I love you, I cannot accept what you are doing. Its wrong according to my faith and my belief.

What is God asking of us? To shut up and let or go? OR say I am sorry it is wrong. Does God want us to stand up for right or wrong today? What is you heart saying to YOU. Thats all I am asking?

I guess I’m not seeing your point…how is going to my brother to make amends because he SINNED AGAINST ME have anything to do with confronting someone concerning my percieved understanding that they are “sinning”…when their “sin” has nothing to do with me?

Seems to me this verse is not addressing your point at all…but then…I’m dense.