Same-sex marriage: where does my objection go wrong?

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surritter said:
I cannot answer this question until we deem what the law is granting.
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The right to marry. Do you understand this right when applied to opposite-sex couples? If so, then you should understand this right when applied to same-sex couples - because they’re exactly the same.
surritter said:
Until you tell us what marriage is, your other arguments have no steam and will elicit no response – though there are very capable responses – since we can’t agree on the FOUNDATIONAL concept.
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“Civil marriage” is the concept at issue. It’s painfully obvious that you are dodging my previous objections to your “ordered towards procreation” rationale, and I can see why, so you’re playing the same game that Stephen is playing when he pretends to be unaware of the distinction between civil marriage and religious marriage. Will you address my objections, or will you continue to playing the dodging game?
 
Stephen168 said:
Define marriage?
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I still don’t understand what you mean by “pedophile unions.” Does marriage between a 40 yr old and a 10 yr old count as “pedophilia marriage” if the 10 yr old can reproduce? Yes or no?
 
surritter said:
I cannot answer this question until we deem what the law is granting. Until you tell us what marriage is, your other arguments have no steam and will elicit no response – though there are very capable responses – since we can’t agree on the FOUNDATIONAL concept.
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Btw, perhaps you should recall what you wrote in post# 175:

To the Catholics here: I don’t see any problem with limiting the discussion to civil marriage, if that’s what it takes for the non-believers here.

A civil marriage is still based on the idea of children (well, historically at least). This is simply biology, and can be reasonably defended from the viewpoints of science and natural law.

So defend “civil marriage” on the basis of science and natural law. I offered my objections to your “ordered towards procreation” rationale, which you have yet to refute.
 
spencelo said:
The right to marry. Do you understand this right when applied to opposite-sex couples? If so, then you should understand this right when applied to same-sex couples - because they’re exactly the same.

“Civil marriage” is the concept at issue. It’s painfully obvious that you are dodging my previous objections to your “ordered towards procreation” rationale, and I can see why, so you’re playing the same game that Stephen is playing when he pretends to be unaware of the distinction between civil marriage and religious marriage. Will you address my objections, or will you continue to playing the dodging game?
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I think it is very clear to both of us that it is you who is playing the game. If you believed in same-sex marriage or civil marriage or marriage in general you would be able and willing to define it. You prefer to play a game.
I don’t mind because it exposes the weakness of your position. Your position is nothing more than a tantrum. You don’t know what you want, you just don’t want that.
 
Stephen168 said:
Yes,they have exactly the same meaning.
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But atheists aren’t entitled to a Catholic ceremony, even though they can get married. When atheists get married, do they go through a Catholic ceremony? Yes or no? If not, then it follows that civil marriage and Catholic marriage do not have the same meaning.
 
Stephen168 said:
I think it is very clear to both of us that it is you who is playing the game. If you believed in same-sex marriage or civil marriage or marriage in general you would be able and willing to define it. You prefer to play a game.
I don’t mind because it exposes the weakness of your position. Your position is nothing more than a tantrum. You don’t know what you want, you just don’t want that.
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Actually, the one playing the game is you, since you are still pretending that civil marriage and Catholic marriage is one and the same. When argument is no longer possible, the strategy is to avoid debate by pretending that one doesn’t understand various terms. It’s not a very original ploy, but since it helps you avoid having to address objections and arguments, I see why you employ it.
 
spencelo said:
Actually, the one playing the game is you, since you are still pretending that civil marriage and Catholic marriage is one and the same. When argument is no longer possible, the strategy is to avoid debate by pretending that one doesn’t understand various terms. It’s not a very original ploy, but since it helps you avoid having to address objections and arguments, I see why you employ it.
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I will ask you again just so you can show us all that you are not playing games here. Pick a question and answer it:
What is the difference between civil and religious marriage?
What is your definition of marriage?
 
sllhouette said:
I would not say that all gay marriage proponents would advocate for gay marriage within the Church. My point was only that there are some people who do.
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And that point is nonsense: I know of no marriage equality proponent advocating for the right to marry in churches (and I’ve been debating this issue for quite awhile). If you can produce one example, it is still an extremely minority position, one that virtually no one on our side takes seriously.
sllhouette said:
Now I know you differ from me on the points of language, but my point is not to force you to accept my language (hijack) but to express my own solid definitions that are in contention with your own so as to express the difficulties that you are having with other people so that you can understand where you objection goes wrong.
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There is no real “contention” regarding definitions: civil marriage isn’t religious marriage, no matter how desperately people want to equate the two.
 
spencelo said:
But atheists aren’t entitled to a Catholic ceremony, even though they can get married. When atheists get married, do they go through a Catholic ceremony? Yes or no? If not, then it follows that civil marriage and Catholic marriage do not have the same meaning.
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Stephen168 said:
They have exactly the same meaning. The only difference between them is where the paperwork is signed at inception. The marriages are exactly the same. They have been the same since governments recognized marriage. The have been the same since religions recognized marriage. They are the same
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Stephen168 said:
I will ask you again just so you can show us all that you are not playing games here. Pick a question and answer it:
What is the difference between civil and religious marriage?
What is your definition of marriage?
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That you would equate civil marriage with Catholic marriage demonstrates who is playing the game here. Do couples need to fulfill all the requirements for a Catholic marriage in order to get married? You know the answer to this, which demonstrates that your equation isn’t intellectually honest, but a cheap ploy to avoid debate.
 
spencelo said:
That you would equate civil marriage with Catholic marriage demonstrates who is playing the game here. Do couples need to fulfill all the requirements for a Catholic marriage in order to get married? You know the answer to this, which demonstrates that your equation isn’t intellectually honest, but a cheap ploy to avoid debate.
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I’m asking you to define marriage not define the requirements to hold a ceremony at a given place.
They have exactly the same meaning. The only difference between them is where the paperwork is signed at inception. The marriages are exactly the same. They have been the same since governments recognized marriage. The have been the same since religions recognized marriage. They are the same.
 
Stephen168 said:
I’m asking you to define marriage not define the requirements to hold a ceremony at a given place.
They have exactly the same meaning.
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This is completely irrational. Do couples need to fulfill all the requirements for a Catholic marriage in order to get married? If not, then “civil marriage” and “Catholic marriage” do NOT have the exact same meaning – not even close. What do you mean by “exactly the same meaning?” As an atheist, marriage for me would not be a “Catholic marriage” at all, and I still don’t know why you continue to pretend otherwise.
 
spencelo said:
This is completely irrational. Do couples need to fulfill all the requirements for a Catholic marriage in order to get married? If not, then “civil marriage” and “Catholic marriage” do NOT have the exact same meaning – not even close. What do you mean by “exactly the same meaning?” As an atheist,** marriage for me **would not be a “Catholic marriage” at all, and I still don’t know why you continue to pretend otherwise.
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I’m not pretending. What is marriage to you?
 
Stephen168 said:
I’m not pretending. What is marriage to you?
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There’s no longer any reason for me to respond to your posts in this thread, though observing your tactical ploys has been most informative, and for that I thank you.
 
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