Same-sex marriages: Let it be!

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However, I have come to realize the ramifications of allowing this would be that it’s considered equal to marriage. Then, you open the door to gays insisting that cake makers, florists, photographers, and clergy must participate in their “marriages” and sue if not. Then, the next step is gay adoption.
Case in point ; " Ramifications " ? future - tenses ? I’m sorry , but this argument was lost when you acknowledged that the state had any authority here , whether that was 50 or 500 years ago. Concepts have consequences , though sometimes they are slow in the flowering.
 
you are only being
I am only stating —

— on a presumably religious forum

— on a presumably Catholic forum no less

That NOT all questions are subject to the vote of man. ( including the vote of yours truly ) .
 
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If same-sex couples believe that marriage will bring them happiness, let it be.
Do you believe that the Catholic Church can change its teaching on this? A local Catholic college publishes a newsletter with information about alumni. One of the points of interest is who among the graduates of the Catholic college, has gotten married recently. I noticed that in the last few editions, they offer their congratulations to a few SS couples. Their pictures are posted together with the many well wishers and it appears that everyone is happy and smiling on this occasion.
 
If the world wanted marriage to be a purely spiritual and moral institution, it should not have attached a barrage of civil legal and economic benefits to it including tax, pension, inheritance, the right to determine the partner’s health care, etc. The reason it did that is because while marriage in the church or faith of your choice may be spiritual and moral, civil marriage is a construct for keeping order in society.

It is unfair to deny an entire class of reasonable people, who are not seeking to marry their pets, their sisters, underage children but to marry as two consenting adults, access to these benefits because they are gay. It is likewise unfair and burdensome to a country’s civil and legal system, as well as to the people themselves, to make said country and legal system create an entire parallel body of “domestic partner” law just because a religion objects to the marriage. By that reasoning, the state should have also created an entire new body of law for divorced people who remarry outside the Church because the Church does not see that as a valid marriage either.

Now if the state were to come into the Church and compel it to marry gay people, divorced people, etc. in the Church, I would object as that would be an interference with religion and an overreaching. If the state tries to compel Christian bakers to make wedding cakes, etc. I would likewise object as that is an interference with the freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and the freedom to contract, and there is no necessity involved here (plenty of other places will make that cake or host that wedding). However, if the state just wants to marry consenting adults to each other without Church involvement, the state has already been doing that for decades, at least in USA.

I don’t expect these thoughts to change anyone’s mind, just stating them for the record. In the meantime I prefer to be friendly, kind and loving to my gay brothers and sisters, and that to me does not mean that I lecture them about their sex lives which first of all are none of my business and second of all I’m quite sure they already have enough angst and worry and sturm und drang about without my barging in there. If they need spiritual counseling about same, they can speak to a priest.
 
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Do you believe that the Catholic Church can change its teaching on this?
Whether they could or could not (and many on this board will insist, with dozens of references to the Bible, the Catechism and everything else, that they certainly could not, as we have already seen in many threads), the Church will almost certainly NOT change its teaching in the near future, i.e. my lifetime, because a large percentage of the current membership would rise up and leave and we’d have another schism. Sad but true.

Would love to have a time machine to see where things are in 100 or 200 or 300 years on this.
 
Exactly, very wrong how same sex marriage was imposed on the USA by 9 unelected judges, the same with ‘Abortion’ which the declaration directly speaks to regarding the first and most basic right, the right to ‘life’ …liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Last I checked we live in a democracy with checks and balances. It should also be noted that the latest polls show that approximately 2/3 of the US population, including 2/3 of Catholics, support gay marriage. Perhaps you would prefer to live in a country under Sharia law where gay marriage is not a possibility.
 
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I believe a child needs a close family member of each sex as a role model who they live with and likely this is a parent rather than an uncle or aunt. But. As someone has said before just because something is wrong in the moral sphere to do with relationships does not mean it should be illegal. Adultery is clearly wrong but it shouldn’t be illegal. And possibly the same with gay marriage.
 
Specially since there is no social consensus that it is morally wrong.
 
Let us consider the three possible paths a gay person could take.
  1. Choose celibacy. This is the only one of which the Catholic church approves. However, not every gay person is going to choose that path.
So that leaves them with
  1. Live a promiscuous life having sex with many different partners with all the pitfalls that entails, including loneliness, sadness, emotional upset, social diseases, etc.
Or
  1. Enter into a committed relationship with one person whom they love.
Not hard to see which alternative is the “lesser of the two evils”, so to speak (assuming that one even sees #3 as an “evil” to begin with).
 
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Same-sex marriage is impossible. It goes against Biology and Church teaching. If some think evil does not exist than anything is permissible which is also not true.

Ed
 
I have been praying that you would finally come to some sort of basic understanding on the very broad subject of LGBTQ individuals, but evidently I’m wrong.
 
Did you listen to today’s first reading at Mass, Robert?

Thus the word of the LORD came to me: Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman for the house of Israel. When you hear a word from my mouth, you shall warn them for me.
If I say to the wicked man, You shall surely die; and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his wicked conduct so that he may live: that wicked man shall die for his sin, but I will hold you responsible for his death.
If, on the other hand, you have warned the wicked man, yet he has not turned away from his evil nor from his wicked conduct, then he shall die for his sin, but you shall save your life.

Ezekiel 3: 17-19
 
Did you listen to today’s first reading at Mass, Robert?

Thus the word of the LORD came to me: Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman for the house of Israel. When you hear a word from my mouth, you shall warn them for me.
If I say to the wicked man, You shall surely die; and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his wicked conduct so that he may live: that wicked man shall die for his sin, but I will hold you responsible for his death.
If, on the other hand, you have warned the wicked man, yet he has not turned away from his evil nor from his wicked conduct, then he shall die for his sin, but you shall save your life.

Ezekiel 3: 17-19
I believe that most, if not all, people in same-sex marriages already know the Church’s stance which I support. But I still say not to judge or get upset. Now that same-sex marriages are legal, I believe it’s up to God at this point to judge from a societal perspective, not the Church’s perspective.
 
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Often the hardliners will pull out, Leviticus 18:22: “man shall not lie with man as man lies with woman” but Leviticus also states If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death”. (Leviticus 20:10)

“But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die” (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

So how do we as Catholics pick and choose some things in the Bible but not others? The holy text defines homosexuality as immoral but it also states that we must kill adulterers and stone woman to death who lie about their virginity status.

It is clear that the holy text can be hard to follow, how do we believe and act on some sections but not others? I think as an Eastern Catholic and a Christian, it is my duty to follows Christs message of loving ones neighbors unconditionally no matter what their sexual orientation. True love means not to scorn nor to judge others and I mean to do just that.

It is important to note also, that even tho the Church may take a stance against same-sex marriage, countries such as America have a concept known as separation of Church and State, so any of our religious affiliations should never affect our politics. Why should our Catholic and Christian values have more priority in a countries that hold multi-faith and even irreligious citizens, that is just not fair nor equal towards all people of the state.
 
If same-sex couples believe that marriage will bring them happiness, let it be. I’m not going to fight it. I feel a deep love for gay people, just the same way I love straight people. Some worry that same-sex marriage may destroy the family, I doubt it. All we really need to do is preach the bible and those who light is ignited will turn from all evil.
Here is some self explanatory, forever advice, that has no expiration date to it.

Ez 3:
17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. 20 Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.”

There is no such thing as same sex marriage
 
" Two consenting adults " is a legal construct .

A popular legal construct because it happens to be convenient for many .

Objectively, in reality, no sex act ever involves just two consenting adults. on the contrary, it involves multiple third parties who get no vote, no say, who may very well be negatively impacted

As for a fair marriage law, that, likewise, is an, albeit popular, FICTION. .

You simply cannot write a marriage law that will not disadvantage some persons, some groups.
 
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Robert_Sock:
If same-sex couples believe that marriage will bring them happiness, let it be. I’m not going to fight it. I feel a deep love for gay people, just the same way I love straight people. Some worry that same-sex marriage may destroy the family, I doubt it. All we really need to do is preach the bible and those who light is ignited will turn from all evil.
Here is some self explanatory, forever advice, that has no expiration date to it.

Ez 3:
17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. 20 Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.”

There is no such thing as same sex marriage
I’m very aware of that passage, and I believe they know that Catholics teach that they are in sin, and thus warned. Again, my post is at the level of societies’ decision to allow gay marriages. It’s the decision of society to allow gay marriages that I’m referring to. As I already stated, it’s our job to preach the bible to them so that they may see the Light! Again, I’m in agreement with the Church and I oppose gay marriages from a religious perspective, but as for our society’s decision to allow gay marriages, it is there that I say “let it be.” It a decision on behalf of society that I doubt will likely change.
 
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we should simply abolish…the very concept of gender
I do not agree with abolishing marriage and family, but I have thought for many years that gender creates way too many headaches and I would enjoy seeing it go.
I know I will not get my wish because so many people consider their gender identity very essential to their self-identity. I personally don’t feel that way myself but from what I have gathered for the last few decades, I’m a bit odd in that respect.
 
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