Same Sex sexual relationships: history in the Catholic (and Orthodox, Protestant) churches.

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I think I know the answer to this one, but I want to create a new thread to verify.

We know today that the Catholic church believes that same sex sexual relationships are outside of God’s design (ie sin).

My question is this?

Was there ever a point in time where the Catholic church believed that same sex sexual relationships were OK with God? If there was, at what point were the beliefs changed to the current? If there was not a point in time, then do I assume that it always believed that same sex sexual relationships were not OK with God.

I can also ask this question of Orthodox and Protestant denominations?

I am asking this because I maintain that historically the Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant churches have all historically opposed same sex sexual relationships. Therefore I maintain that the recent change in some mainline Protestant denominations represents a new, 30 year old, creative interpretation of the written word of God.

However,

I am not an expert on church history. Therefore, I am open to being corrected on this point if I am shown to be incorrect in my assessment.
 
The Catholic Church has always taught that homosexual activity is a sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:8-10).

Fun biblical fact: every time the word “homosexual” is used in the Bible, it refers to an active homosexual, i.e., someone who commits homosexual activities. The same goes for “murderers”, “liars”, “fornicators”, etc. God teaches us that those who commit mortal sins do not enter Heaven; He dose not teach us that He hates homosexuals, murderers, etc. In fact, He came to save sinners: Not only from sin and Hell but also from ignorance. This is why Jesus teaches that from the beginning God had created man and woman for each other (Mark 10:2-9). The importance of this teaching is not just about divorce being unaccetable; it is also about homoseual activities being unacceptable. In Jesus’ time, homosexuality was rampant in the world. He was telling people to stop committing homosexual acts, which certainly would have offended the whole Roman Empire, since it believed that homosexual activity was natural (hence the reason why Jesus uses the phrase “from the beginning” to show that heterosexuality is normal, not homosexuality).
 
I My question is this?

Was there ever a point in time where the Catholic church believed that same sex sexual relationships were OK with God? If.
no. this has been unbroken teaching throughout Jewish and Christian history until the defection of certain nominally Christian denominations in our own day
 
Thank you very much for your answers. The more anwers to this the better. It confirms what I thought.🙂

One more question.

If this has been unbroken in the history of the Catholic church, then it would be logical to assume that the Catholic church at the time of the reformation did not think that homosexuality was ok with God.

Do any of you know whether this was something that any of the reformers changed with the reformation.

Now I would think not, because if that had been the case, we would definitely be hearing about this from Catholic apologists. But I have not heard one Catholic apologist charge the reformers for chaning this moral teaching.

Is that correct?
 
Like Catholics, the Orthodox have always seen it as a sinful act.

Of course the Church Fathers were clear that it isn’t much different than any other sinful act and the modern focus on it is wrong.
 
Thank you very much for your answers. The more anwers to this the better. It confirms what I thought.🙂

One more question.

If this has been unbroken in the history of the Catholic church, then it would be logical to assume that the Catholic church at the time of the reformation did not think that homosexuality was ok with God.

Do any of you know whether this was something that any of the reformers changed with the reformation.

Now I would think not, because if that had been the case, we would definitely be hearing about this from Catholic apologists. But I have not heard one Catholic apologist charge the reformers for chaning this moral teaching.

Is that correct?
The Reformers were more Catholic than their followers are today. For example, Luther believed Mary was sinless. Lutherans, however, do not believe this. The reason that the followers of the wayward children of the Church have changed so much is because they lack the promise of Christ of the Father sending the Holy Spirit, to lead His Church into all truths. The reverse side of this promise is that He would not allow His Church to become corrupted: she would not make new doctrine nor abandon her Spouse. The ship which is led on the course of truth, cannot logically be led on the course of deceit at the same time. And when you reject the truth for a lie, you inevitable set sail on the course of deceiet. But God works in strange ways; He saves souls in ways we would not expect.
 
Like Catholics, the Orthodox have always seen it as a sinful act.

Of course the Church Fathers were clear that it isn’t much different than any other sinful act and the modern focus on it is wrong.
Thank you for your answer.

Now it is one thing to say that the church puts to much emphasis on homosexuality versus other sinful acts.

It is a totally different thing to say that same sex sexual relationships are OK with God.
 
no. this has been unbroken teaching throughout Jewish and Christian history until the defection of certain nominally Christian denominations in our own day
One more question I thought of if I dare ask.

It would seem to me that if there were ever even a hint that at sometime the Catholic church taught the other, as specious as that hint would be, that certain Protestant apologists would be all over it.

So my question is, in all of your times on this forum, has anybody even raised the charge (as ridiculous as it would be) that the Catholic church has ever taught that same sex sexual relationships were ok with God.
 
The Reformers were more Catholic than their followers are today. For example, Luther believed Mary was sinless. Lutherans, however, do not believe this. The reason that the followers of the wayward children of the Church have changed so much is because they lack the promise of Christ of the Father sending the Holy Spirit, to lead His Church into all truths. The reverse side of this promise is that He would not allow His Church to become corrupted: she would not make new doctrine nor abandon her Spouse. The ship which is led on the course of truth, cannot logically be led on the course of deceit at the same time. And when you reject the truth for a lie, you inevitable set sail on the course of deceiet. But God works in strange ways; He saves souls in ways we would not expect.
Irregardless on how one views the reformers, is there any hint that they changed the church teaching on same sex sexual relationships.

In other words have any Catholics here ever started a thread, “the reformers changed the church teaching on homosexuality” as specious as this charge may be.

What I am trying to ascertain is this…

In all of the religious warfare, verbal and otherwise, that has been going on for the last 500 years, and all of the charges that have been made on both sides specious or otherwise, does anybody know of any charges against the other side of supporting “homosexuality is ok” save some mainline Protestant denominations over the last 30 years.

I don’t think that verbal warfare on these lines has occurred between the two camps throughout the last 500 years. If that is the case, then this silence would be deafening.
 
The Catholic Church has always taught that homosexual activity is a sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 1:8-10).

Fun biblical fact: every time the word “homosexual” is used in the Bible, it refers to an active homosexual, i.e., someone who commits homosexual activities. The same goes for “murderers”, “liars”, “fornicators”, etc. God teaches us that those who commit mortal sins do not enter Heaven; He dose not teach us that He hates homosexuals, murderers, etc. In fact, He came to save sinners: Not only from sin and Hell but also from ignorance. This is why Jesus teaches that from the beginning God had created man and woman for each other (Mark 10:2-9). The importance of this teaching is not just about divorce being unaccetable; it is also about homoseual activities being unacceptable. In Jesus’ time, homosexuality was rampant in the world. He was telling people to stop committing homosexual acts, which certainly would have offended the whole Roman Empire, since it believed that homosexual activity was natural (hence the reason why Jesus uses the phrase “from the beginning” to show that heterosexuality is normal, not homosexuality).
It has been my observation that Catholics and Protestants have a tendency to take Scirpture out of context to create and support whatever believes they may have. I have to strongly disagree with you on your statement of Mark 10:2-9. Jesus is not addressing homosexuality at all. In the great debate on same sex marriage, it is well accepted by both sides of the debate, that Jesus is silent on the issue of homosexuality. You cannot put words in Jesus’ mouth to fit your believe. When you take this account in proper context, Jesus is addressing divorce because the Pharisees were trying to trap him with a question about divorce. Jesus expands his answer on divorce to the sin of adultery.

Mark 10

Teaching About Divorce

10:1 And he left there and went to the region of Judea and beyond the Jordan, and crowds gathered to him again. And again, as was his custom, he taught them.

And Pharisees came up and in order to test him asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?” He answered them, “What did Moses command you?” They said, “Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce and to send her away.” And Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.’ ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

And in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter. And he said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

We can take another related passage on adultery, revealing that sin is of the heart, and that we are all great sinners. Notice the parallel between Mark 10 and Matthew 5 with divorce and adultery and lust.

Lust
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Divorce
“It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. - Matthew 5
 
One more question I thought of if I dare ask.

It would seem to me that if there were ever even a hint that at sometime the Catholic church taught the other, as specious as that hint would be, that certain Protestant apologists would be all over it.

So my question is, in all of your times on this forum, has anybody even raised the charge (as ridiculous as it would be) that the Catholic church has ever taught that same sex sexual relationships were ok with God.
If you searched diligently, you might find someone attempting to make that claim on this forum…or perhaps such a post might have been deleted. It doesn’t take much time to search the net to be able to find claims that the RCC and Protestant churches have ever/always/etc. supported homosexuality.
 
I have a serious question. I beleive Jesus taught against same sex My qoestion is why were the gay Priest hidden for so many years when they committed homo relationships with children and moved from Parish instead of the Church fathers facing it and now gives the CC a bad name:shrug:
 
The best source of history of the church on homosexuality is the Scriptures.

Genesis 19-1-29
Judges 19-1-30
Leviticus 18:1-30
Leviticus 20:1-27
1 Cor 6: 9-17
1 Tim 1:3-13
Jude 1-25
Rom 1

All of these verses need to be correctly handled as commanded by God (1 Tim) in its proper context. Like all of Scripture, proper hermeneutics is crucial. All of the verses need to be understood within historical cultural norms, linguistic, original language and English equivalencies, and overall central major themes in the Bible. I hope we all understand that our English translations are limited. Listen to the experts in the original languages and we might get some new insights on this great debate of our generation. Did Paul condemn all homosexual relationship, or was he addressing homosexual prostitution, religious orgies common in his day, etc… I’m not ready to condemn brothers and sisters in Christ who are homosexuals and commit to a monogamous married relationship before God. Scriptures when read beyond the surface, does not support condemnation of all types of homosexual relationships. It’s similar to heterosexual sexual relationships. Some of those relationships are sin, and some are blessed by God.
 
The best source of history of the church on homosexuality is the Scriptures.

Genesis 19-1-29
Judges 19-1-30
Leviticus 18:1-30
Leviticus 20:1-27
1 Cor 6: 9-17
1 Tim 1:3-13
Jude 1-25
Rom 1

All of these verses need to be correctly handled as commanded by God (1 Tim) in its proper context. Like all of Scripture, proper hermeneutics is crucial. All of the verses need to be understood within historical cultural norms, linguistic, original language and English equivalencies, and overall central major themes in the Bible. I hope we all understand that our English translations are limited. Listen to the experts in the original languages and we might get some new insights on this great debate of our generation. Did Paul condemn all homosexual relationship, or was he addressing homosexual prostitution, religious orgies common in his day, etc… I’m not ready to condemn brothers and sisters in Christ who are homosexuals and commit to a monogamous married relationship before God. Scriptures when read beyond the surface, does not support condemnation of all types of homosexual relationships. It’s similar to heterosexual sexual relationships. Some of those relationships are sin, and some are blessed by God.
What I am trying to do is to try to discern what the historical understanding of the church has been concerning same-sex sexual relationships.

What I am hearing in this thread is that the Catholic and Orthodox churches have always opposed same-sex sexual relationships. And that there is no evidence that the reformers changed this in the reformation.

Assuming this is true, and I have absolutely no evidence to the contrary yet, then the understanding that you have of these Scriptures is a brand new, creative way of looking at them that has been invented in the last 30 years that represents a repudiation of traditional Christian moral theology as taught throughout the history of the church.
 
What I am trying to do is to try to discern what the historical understanding of the church has been concerning same-sex sexual relationships.

What I am hearing in this thread is that the Catholic and Orthodox churches have always opposed same-sex sexual relationships. And that there is no evidence that the reformers changed this in the reformation.

Assuming this is true, and I have absolutely no evidence to the contrary yet, then the understanding that you have of these Scriptures is a brand new, creative way of looking at them that has been invented in the last 30 years that represents a repudiation of traditional Christian moral theology as taught throughout the history of the church.
I have not read or studied much about the history of the church in regards to her views on homosexuality. Of course, we are looking for sources outside of the Scriptures. What I gathered, the church has been very silent on the issue of homosexuality and same sex marriage. If others disagree, I too would be very interested to read writings by the Church Fathers, Augustine, and similar sources. Let’s see if it can be produced. Silence on the subject in church history does not support either side of the debate. Silence is a neutral position when appealing to church history. Ancient biblical commentaries on those Scriptures relating to homosexuality would be interesting too. The real debate in my mind is same sex marriage and not homosexuality. We know heterosexual and homosexual sex outside of marriage is sin. Does God consider Christians of the same sex that are married in the church to be in perpitual sin, or does God bless that marriage?
 
Interesting thread. For 2,000 years of Church History, the Church have always maintain in opposition against homosexual activity. To make the claim that the Church have been silent in the issue of homosexual is incorrect. Consider these quotes by the ECF.

“You shall not commit fornication; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not be a corrupter of youth.” Letter of Barnabas 10 (A.D. 74).

“You shall not be a corrupter of boys, nor like unto such.” Letter of Barnabas 10 (A.D. 74).

“You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill one that has been born.” Didache 2:2 (A.D. 90).

“[W]e have been taught that to expose newly-born children is the part of wicked men; and this we have been taught lest we should do anyone harm and lest we should sin against God, first, because we see that almost all so exposed (not only the girls, but also the males) are brought up to prostitution. And for this pollution a multitude of females and hermaphrodites, and those who commit unmentionable iniquities, are found in every nation. And you receive the hire of these, and duty and taxes from them, whom you ought to exterminate from your realm. And any one who uses such persons, besides the godless and infamous and impure intercourse, may possibly be having intercourse with his own child, or relative, or brother. And there are some who prostitute even their own children and wives, and some are openly mutilated for the purpose of sodomy; and they refer these mysteries to the mother of the gods.” Justin Martyr, First Apology 27 (A.D. 151).

“All honor to that king of the Scythians, whoever Anacharsis was, who shot with an arrow one of his subjects who imitated among the Scythians the mystery of the mother of the gods . . . condemning him as having become effeminate among the Greeks, and a teacher of the disease of effeminacy to the rest of the Scythians.” Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2 (A.D. 190).

“[According to Greek myth] Baubo [a female native of Elusis] having received [the goddess] Demeter hospitably, reached to her a refreshing draught; and on her refusing it, not having any inclination to drink (for she was very sad), and Baubo having become annoyed, thinking herself slighted, uncovered her shame, and exhibited her nudity to the goddess. Demeter is delighted with the sight–pleased, I repeat, at the spectacle. These are the secret mysteries of the Athenians; these Orpheus records.” Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2 (A.D. 190).

“It is not, then, without reason that the poets call him [Hercules] a cruel wretch and a nefarious scoundrel. It were tedious to recount his adulteries of all sorts, and debauching of boys. For your gods did not even abstain from boys, one having loved Hylas, another Hyacinthus, another Pelops, another Chrysippus, another Ganymede. Let such gods as these be worshipped by your wives, and let them pray that their husbands be such as these–so temperate; that, emulating them in the same practices, they may be like the gods. Such gods let your boys be trained to worship, that they may grow up to be men with the accursed likeness of fornication on them received from the gods.” Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2 (A.D. 190).

“[A]ll other frenzies of the lusts which exceed the laws of nature, and are impious toward both [human] bodies and the sexes, we banish, not only from the threshold but also from all shelter of the Church, for they are not sins so much as monstrosities.” Tertullian, Modesty 4 (A.D. 220).

“[God forbid the Jews to eat certain foods for symbolic reasons:] For that in fishes the roughness of scales is regarded as constituting their cleanness; rough, and rugged, and unpolished, and substantial, and grave manners are approved in men; while those that are without scales are unclean, because trifling, and fickle, and faithless, and effeminate manners are disapproved. Moreover, what does the Law mean when it…forbids the swine to be taken for food? It assuredly reproves a life filthy and dirty, and delighting in the garbage of vice…Or when it forbids the hare? It rebukes men deformed into women.” Novatian, The Jewish Foods 3 (A.D. 250).

“[T]urn your looks to the abominations, not less to be deplored, of another kind of spectacle…Men are emasculated, and all the pride and vigor of their sex is effeminated in the disgrace of their enervated body; and he is more pleasing there who has most completely broken down the man into the woman. He grows into praise by virtue of his crime; and the more he is degraded, the more skillful he is considered to be. Such a one is looked upon–oh shame!–and looked upon with pleasure…nor is there wanting authority for the enticing abomination…that Jupiter of theirs [is] not more supreme in dominion than in vice, inflamed with earthly love in the midst of his own thunders…now breaking forth by the help of birds to violate the purity of boys. And now put the question: Can he who looks upon such things be healthy-minded or modest? Men imitate the gods whom they adore, and to such miserable beings their crimes become their religion.” Cyprian of Carthage, Letters 1:8 (A.D. 253).

“Oh, if placed on that lofty watch-tower, you could gaze into the secret places–if you could open the closed doors of sleeping chambers and recall their dark recesses to the perception of sight–you would behold things done by immodest persons which no chaste eye could look upon; you would see what even to see is a crime; you would see what people embruted with the madness of vice deny that they have done, and yet hasten to do–men with frenzied lusts rushing upon men, doing things which afford no gratification even to those who do them.” Cyprian of Carthage, Letters 1:9 (A.D. 253).

So you see in the writings of the ECF, the Church have always taught against homosexual acts as sinful. As far as Protestant Reformers, they traditionally oppose homosexual acts.

The acceptance of homosexuals by Protestants is in our modern age. Just read the events concerning the Lutheran vote that allow homosexuals into their clergy and religious life. Not to mention there are so called “Liberal Christian” Protestant Churches that now bless gay marriages, etc based on their so-called interpretation of Scripture. In my observation, this is the major draw back for the doctrine of Sola Scriptura one of the pillars of Protestantism.
 
I have not read or studied much about the history of the church in regards to her views on homosexuality. Of course, we are looking for sources outside of the Scriptures. What I gathered, the church has been very silent on the issue of homosexuality and same sex marriage. If others disagree, I too would be very interested to read writings by the Church Fathers, Augustine, and similar sources. Let’s see if it can be produced. Silence on the subject in church history does not support either side of the debate. Silence is a neutral position when appealing to church history. Ancient biblical commentaries on those Scriptures relating to homosexuality would be interesting too. The real debate in my mind is same sex marriage and not homosexuality. We know heterosexual and homosexual sex outside of marriage is sin. Does God consider Christians of the same sex that are married in the church to be in perpitual sin, or does God bless that marriage?
Through the centuries, the Church has been anything but silent on the matter of homosexuality. Here’s the CA tract on the matter. Many of the ECF wrote against homosexual activity.

catholic.com/library/Early_Teachings_on_Homosexuality.asp

As for same-sex marrige, it is such a modern concept you aren’t going to find it mentioned in Biblical or ECF sources. The same goes for IVF, sex change surgery or genetic manipulation.
Does God consider Christians of the same sex that are married in the church to be in perpitual sin, or does God bless that marriage?
Christians of the same sex **cannot be **married in the Church so this question makes little sense. :confused:
 
I have not read or studied much about the history of the church in regards to her views on homosexuality. Of course, we are looking for sources outside of the Scriptures. What I gathered, the church has been very silent on the issue of homosexuality and same sex marriage. If others disagree, I too would be very interested to read writings by the Church Fathers, Augustine, and similar sources. Let’s see if it can be produced. Silence on the subject in church history does not support either side of the debate. Silence is a neutral position when appealing to church history. Ancient biblical commentaries on those Scriptures relating to homosexuality would be interesting too. The real debate in my mind is same sex marriage and not homosexuality. We know heterosexual and homosexual sex outside of marriage is sin. Does God consider Christians of the same sex that are married in the church to be in perpitual sin, or does God bless that marriage?
Then the issuje is whether there is any historical precedence in any of the branches of Christianity for the institution same sex marriage.

If the historic church has believed for 2000 years that same sex sexual relationships are not OK, and if the historic church has made no provision for same sex marriage within its history except for the last 30 years, I have two logical choices of what I can believe.

(1) The historic church has been wrong for 2000 years for not allowing same sex marriage and all of a sudden 2000 years some mainline Protestant denominations (in western cultures only may I add…not in the developing world) are finally getting this issue right and correcting the error of the historic church for 2000 years of Christianity.
(2) The institution of same sex marriage is a nice,creative idea of the last 30 years that overthrows the moral teaching of the historic church, and corrects the traditional understanding of Scripture of the historic church by replacing it with a new invention that God did not have in mind when He designed the institution of marriage.

I will go with option 2 as a nobrainer any day of the week.

Note to my Catholic brothers and sisters. I strongly believe in tradition with a small “t”. Any nice, new, creative idea that overthrows 2000 years of moral teaching by the historic church, (Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox) is a prime example of what Keith Matthison calls “Solo Scriptura” and is a recipe for disaster.
 
The best source of history of the church on homosexuality is the Scriptures.

Genesis 19-1-29
Judges 19-1-30
Leviticus 18:1-30
Leviticus 20:1-27
1 Cor 6: 9-17
1 Tim 1:3-13
Jude 1-25
Rom 1

All of these verses need to be correctly handled as commanded by God (1 Tim) in its proper context. Like all of Scripture, proper hermeneutics is crucial. All of the verses need to be understood within historical cultural norms, linguistic, original language and English equivalencies, and overall central major themes in the Bible. I hope we all understand that our English translations are limited. Listen to the experts in the original languages and we might get some new insights on this great debate of our generation. Did Paul condemn all homosexual relationship, or was he addressing homosexual prostitution, religious orgies common in his day, etc… I’m not ready to condemn brothers and sisters in Christ who are homosexuals and commit to a monogamous married relationship before God. Scriptures when read beyond the surface, does not support condemnation of all types of homosexual relationships. It’s similar to heterosexual sexual relationships. Some of those relationships are sin, and some are blessed by God.
This has echoes of another subtle and oh-so-reasonable voice:
Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the animals that the LORD God had made. The serpent asked the woman, “Did God really tell you not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?”
2
The woman answered the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden;
3
it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘You shall not eat it or even touch it, lest you die.’”
4
But the serpent said to the woman: "You certainly will not die! Gen. 3
 
the Catholic Church has always taught that homosexual acts are wrong, and that if someone is a homosexual, they should be celibate. The Church has also never allowed gay marriage… if two people of the same sex get a civil marriage, that is not recognized by the Church, and that doesn’t make it ok.

God doesn’t hate homosexuals and they don’t have to become straight for God to love them… but it is important that they stay chaste and celibate. Chastity is something we should all pursue, whatever the sexual orientation, and state of life (single, or married, or divorced.)
 
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