Same Sex sexual relationships: history in the Catholic (and Orthodox, Protestant) churches.

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Do you have these quotes.

Not that the issue is that applicable to me at my age (in my 50s).
Alas, I don’t. My obedience in the matter of contraception has been a many year journey along which I never expected to need footnotes. I’ve picked up stuff from all over, but can’t always cite sources, sorry.

I suspect the encyclical “Humanae Vitae” itself will have a healthy bibliography which you can check.

Also see “Love & Responsibility” by Karol Wojticwa (sp?) who later became known as Pope John Paul II.

“Contraception, Why Not?” by Dr. Janet Smith would be another place to look.

And there’s always “Faith of the Early Fathers” by Jergens which is an extremely handy way to look up EF quotes by topic (any topic!). Some truly astounding stuff in there from people who grew up (sometimes literally) on the knees of the apostles. Not quite scripture, but VERY illuminating on what early christians really believed and how they lived.
 
Okay, so you are implying that all Christian churches that perform same sex marriages are apostate and not considered to be a true Christian Church? Wow, sounds very cultic to me, making such an exclusive dogmatic statement. Are you saying legal same sex marriages performed around the world never happened in the eyes of God? Does God recognizes heterosexual marriages between unbelievers? Are you saying God favors the unbelieving heterosexual couple over the Christian homosexual couple? Please provide the Catholic document that supports your post.
You are mixing apples and oranges. “true Christian churches” is one topic. According to Catholic teaching, Protestant denominations are not true Christian Churches. They are ecclesial communities. The Orthodox Churches are true Churches. The Orthodox do not attempt homosexual marriages. For more information, see “RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH,” July 10, 2007.

So, yes Catholics do say that those Protestant demonimnations are not true Churches. But this has nothing to do with same-sex “marriage”. End of topic #1

Topic #2

Yes, God (and the Church) recognizes heterosexual marriages between non-believers. The Church calls them natural marriages. (reference canon law 1055). JahrekCarnelian already gave you the references for Christian homosexual couples attempting marriage. So, yes, a natural marriage of unbelivers is valid and licit while an attempted “marriage” by a same-sex couple could never be either, Christian or not. And it goes without saying that the latter could never be Sacramental since to be Sacramental the marriage must be both valid and licit.

And, yes, we are saying (I hope I am not unfairly putting words in anyone’s mouths) that these “legal same sex marriages performed around the world never happened in the eyes of God”.
 
At one time I knew of a church that banned any form of contraception including natural family planning. It was influenced by the teaching of Bill Gothard.

Families with anywhere from 6-14 children were the norm there. It actually was kinda weird.
OT (sorry)

I grew up in a neighborhood like that. We were the “small” family with only 5 kids. Our neighbors had 9, 10, 12 and one had 14. No particular church involved. It was a pretty good mix of religious traditions. None of those traditions banned family plannning that I know of. But that was back in the days when a “full quiver” was still considered a blessing. 😃
 
I have a niece who is a Lesibian. Do I wish she wasn’t of course! Do I still love her Of course! Do I preach at her nope and I accept her as she chooses to be N ow that that is out of the way. I have never read in the Bible condoning same sex marriage of the other way around way. But if you will take time to read Romans 1:21- 32. Quite a chapter:thumbsup:
 
Alas, I don’t. My obedience in the matter of contraception has been a many year journey along which I never expected to need footnotes. I’ve picked up stuff from all over, but can’t always cite sources, sorry.

I suspect the encyclical “Humanae Vitae” itself will have a healthy bibliography which you can check.

Also see “Love & Responsibility” by Karol Wojticwa (sp?) who later became known as Pope John Paul II.

“Contraception, Why Not?” by Dr. Janet Smith would be another place to look.

And there’s always “Faith of the Early Fathers” by Jergens which is an extremely handy way to look up EF quotes by topic (any topic!). Some truly astounding stuff in there from people who grew up (sometimes literally) on the knees of the apostles. Not quite scripture, but VERY illuminating on what early christians really believed and how they lived.
Thank you very much. Sometime I will look into it, although I don’t know what the priority level will be.

Anyway…

It is time for me to take my leave of these forums

You see, you all might be unaware of this, but I am an imposter here. This has all been a game to me and I do not take Christianity seriously.

And you may all be unaware of this, but I have a lot of demons. And my church, you know, it really is a Brothel.

So certainly you all do not want somebody who really goes to a brothel for church posting here and corrupting your fine forums. So I am going to be taking my leave here.

Dunno if it will be permanent, but probably.

Anyway, I have enjoyed most of you on this thread.
 
Sorry for the delayed response. There is actually a direct link between the legitimized use of contraception and the attempts to legitimize “same sex marriage.”

Contraception is nothing new. Ancients used lamb intestines for condoms and herbalists had concoctions that may actually have suppressed fertility (like today’s pill) and/or caused early abortions. The historical record contains plentiful example of Early Fathers condemning the use of these attempts at contraception. These early fathers may not have had the scientific understanding about conception that we do today, but they DID have something we mostly today severely lack: a combination of observation skills and the ability to recognize cause and effect through reflection and pondering (no TV and iPods!). They clearly saw that it was GOD who made sex and babies linked. They also clearly saw that when man attempted to delink them through contraception, sex became degraded in the process.

It IS subtle, because GOD didn’t make sex ALWAYS lead to children. The key is that when WE try to take action to sterilize a sex act that GOD would have made fertile, we actually change that act into something at least partially degrading to both spouses. This damage doesn’t (necessarily) occur if the couple refrains from sex on those days God made fertile when they have a legitimate need to not get pregnant at that time.

This is also why the Catholic Church opposes technological conception methods like IVF (even if you remove all the abortive abuses). A child has the right to be the result of the loving coupling between his father and mother, not the outcome of a neato lab experiment. It is a subtle act of violence against the child to take that right away from him. This is a hard thing for infertile parents to hear because we today have come to believe that parenthood is our RIGHT. It is not. It is a gift given by God, and sometimes He choses (in his mysterious and hard wisdom) to give a different gift.

We don’t necessarily oppose fertility drugs to help a woman who doesn’t naturally ovulate. It IS the proper role of medicine to help fix malfunctions that occur in the human body. If it can help her ovulate, then the couple can conceive as God intended. See the difference?

What does all this have to do with “gay marriage?” Well when protestantism embraced contraception, they took a Trojan Horse into the city (no pun intended!). Inside this horse lurked a nasty enemy: a subtle change in attitude towards marriage that made it all about the two lovers, not the whole resulting family. Once this attitude became fully entrenched, gay marriage was inevitable! If marriage is primarily just about the union of two lovers, how can you deny it to two lovers because they have inner attractions that they didn’t chose to have that are different than yours? That’s a LOT harder temptation to resist than when marriage was defined as the loving union between man and wife that forms the foundation of the family, which in turn forms the foundation of civilization itself! Sad to say, but it is logically inconsistant to embrace contraception and reject gay marriage. If protestantism holds out against the cultural tide, I predict it will only be for the wrong reasons: it’s easier to oppose a sin one isn’t personally inclined towards! That doesn’t bode well for our witness to the world.

Consider the historic christian position on contraception (inherently evil). Read Christopher West’s “Good News About Sex & Marriage” for an easy reading introduction. Christendom would be a lot more believable to the world if we lived the hard teachings that were hard on US in addition to those that are hard on THEM.
👍 You hit the nail on the head. These have been my thoughts for a long time, but I was never able to articulate them as you have. Thanks 👍
 
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