Same Sex sexual relationships: history in the Catholic (and Orthodox, Protestant) churches.

[Nine_Two]

Yes I have, but I never equated it to a loving consensual exchange entered into of our own free will and as equal adults.

That’s because you didn’t want the dog humping your leg. What if you did? It would be consensual. Would you be in favour of such a marriage in this case?

 

[NotTooSmart]

One of the points of a good relationship centers around mutual respect and mutual consent between two parties that can enter into such an agreement. While you may want you dog to enter into such a relationship…they are unable to so so.

Coercion, rape and violence against another living entity is not what is being discussed…I’m sure you can understand the difference between two adults entering into a mutual loving realtionship and you raping your dog…can’t you?

My dog loves me and I love my dog. So why can’t we? Who are you or anybody else to judge the loving relationship that I have with my dog.

Anyway, turning to the Bible

• Jesus said nothing about this type of relationship in the Bible
• There are no New Testament Scriptures against it in the Bible.
• There is less written in the Scriptures concerning me having sex with my dog than there are concerning same-sex sexual relationships. At least Romans 1:26-27 is in the Bible. There is nothing like that concerning my dog.
• The only Scriptures against this are in the OT law. And we know that we can throw these out, because, well we eat clams now do we.

And turning to tradition.

• How is the 2000 year old history of the church (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox relevant to this anyway). If we don’t see it in the Bible, it must be OK with God.

So, if we can not turn to Scriptures for an answer and we can not turn to tradition for an answer, all that I am left with is your opinion. And you might have the opinion that this is wrong. Fine. If it works for you, good. But it still is…just…your opinion. You can not presume to speak for God because God is silent on this issue.

So my opinion is that “who are you to judge the relationship between me and my dog”.

 

[Nine_Two]

And turning to tradition.

• How is the 2000 year old history of the church (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox relevant to this anyway). If we don’t see it in the Bible, it must be OK with God.

I’ve never come across anything in Holy Tradition that says animal marriage is wrong. It must be right.

 

[qui_est_ce]

My dog loves me and I love my dog. So why can’t we? Who are you or anybody else to judge the loving relationship that I have with my dog.

Anyway, turning to the Bible

• Jesus said nothing about this type of relationship in the Bible
• There are no New Testament Scriptures against it in the Bible.
• There is less written in the Scriptures concerning me having sex with my dog than there are concerning same-sex sexual relationships. At least Romans 1:26-27 is in the Bible. There is nothing like that concerning my dog.
• The only Scriptures against this are in the OT law. And we know that we can throw these out, because, well we eat clams now do we.

And turning to tradition.

• How is the 2000 year old history of the church (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox relevant to this anyway). If we don’t see it in the Bible, it must be OK with God.

All good points, which is why I am Catholic.

I think you can change your signature now

 

[Publisher]

My dog loves me and I love my dog. So why can’t we? Who are you or anybody else to judge the loving relationship that I have with my dog.

Anyway, turning to the Bible

• Jesus said nothing about this type of relationship in the Bible
• There are no New Testament Scriptures against it in the Bible.
• There is less written in the Scriptures concerning me having sex with my dog than there are concerning same-sex sexual relationships. At least Romans 1:26-27 is in the Bible. There is nothing like that concerning my dog.
• The only Scriptures against this are in the OT law. And we know that we can throw these out, because, well we eat clams now do we.

And turning to tradition.

• How is the 2000 year old history of the church (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox relevant to this anyway). If we don’t see it in the Bible, it must be OK with God.

Again, are you equating your pet and your pet’s response to you as two loving,consenting adults who enter into a mutual loving relationship? Has your dog given his informed loving consent? How would you know? Even a dog who is repeatedly beaten and vicitimized continues to be loyal to it’s master…you are seeking to equate things mutually exclusive of one another…you cannot enter into such a relationship with your dog…your dog does not have the capacity to do so…no matter how much you desire that he could.

As many Catholics are fond of pointing out…not everything is in the Bible.

Actually I think you will find the Levitical laws that prohibit beastiality more severe in places…and those places where same sex encounters is specified it has to do with rape, violence, pagan cultures and religious mores. Perhaps beastiality falls under the same catagory as rape, pedastry, violence and coercion…but none of the passages that can be quoted that even hint at same sex encounters speak of loving, mutual, consentual relationships between two adults choosing to be in relationship with one another.

The history of humanity is rife with much that has not been understood about medicine, psychology, sociology and sexuality…I don’t seek to impose a modern understanding of medicine, psychology, science, sociology OR sexuality on cultures far removed from my own in location and time.

I dare say…neither do you.

 

[NotTooSmart]

Again, are you equating your pet and your pet’s response to you as two loving,consenting adults who enter into a mutual loving relationship? Has your dog given his informed loving consent? How would you know? Even a dog who is repeatedly beaten and vicitimized continues to be loyal to it’s master…you are seeking to equate things mutually exclusive of one another…you cannot enter into such a relationship with your dog…your dog does not have the capacity to do so…no matter how much you desire that he could.

As many Catholics are fond of pointing out…not everything is in the Bible.

Actually I think you will find the Levitical laws that prohibit beastiality more severe in places…and those places where same sex encounters is specified it has to do with rape, violence, pagan cultures and religious mores. Perhaps beastiality falls under the same catagory as rape, pedastry, violence and coercion…but none of the passages that can be quoted that even hint at same sex encounters speak of loving, mutual, consentual relationships between two adults choosing to be in relationship with one another.

The history of humanity is rife with much that has not been understood about medicine, psychology, sociology and sexuality…I don’t seek to impose a modern understanding of medicine, psychology, science, sociology OR sexuality on cultures far removed from my own in location and time.

I dare say…neither do you.

And you have a very nice opinion on this matter. But it is still only that…your opinion. If it works for you, fine.

But under the logic that I have read here, you can not claim to being know how God feels about this issue.

And since my opinion is just as valid as yours, my opinion is that “My dog and I have a very loving relationship and who are you to judge it”.

 

[Publisher]

And you have a very nice opinion on this matter. But it is still only that…your opinion. If it works for you, fine.

It seems we both share a high opinion of our opinions.

But under the logic that I have read here, you can not claim to being know how God feels about this issue.

I may not know how God feels…but I have more of a chance finding out how God feels than you do how your dog about the subject of same sex relationships.

And since my opinion is just as valid as yours, my opinion is that “My dog and I have a very loving relationship and who are you to judge it”.

If your dog is able to provide a consenual intellectual response to your advances…you’re right…who am I ?

 

[qui_est_ce]

you are seeking to equate things mutually exclusive of one another…

And this is what the church teaches about homosexual relations.

As many Catholics are fond of pointing out…not everything is in the Bible.

Corect, the Bible came from Church Teaching. And the Church teaches that homosexual acts are sinful.

but none of the passages that can be quoted that even hint at same sex encounters speak of loving, mutual, consentual relationships between two adults choosing to be in relationship with one another.

That is because homosexual acts are sinful. People with same sex attraction need to remain chaste in their relationships.
1 Timothy 1:8-10:

 8 We know that the law is good, provided that one uses it as law,

9 with the understanding that law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly, the godless and sinful, the unholy and profane, those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers,
10 the unchaste, sodomites,5 kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching,

1 Cor 6:9:

9
3 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites

.

I don’t seek to impose a modern understanding of {snip} sexuality on cultures far removed from my own in location and time.

I dare say…neither do you.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I don’t like verse slinging, so I just posted a couple of relevant verses. There are more. The verses I posted are in context to Catholic Church Teaching, then and now. Claims that moral teaching in this area has changed are a modern invention and inconsistent with the Teachings of the Church over 2,000 years.

 

[Publisher]

And this is what the church teaches about homosexual relations.
Corect, the Bible came from Church Teaching. And the Church teaches that homosexual acts are sinful. That is because homosexual acts are sinful. People with same sex attraction need to remain chaste in their relationships.

.

I understand WHAT your church teaches…I do not believe in it’s teachings concerning human sexuality.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I understand WHAT your church teaches…I do not believe in it’s teachings concerning human sexuality.

What is your faith-base, then? How do you determine what is truth and what is opinion?

 

[NotTooSmart]

Originally Posted by NotTooSmart View Post
And you have a very nice opinion on this matter. But it is still only that…your opinion. If it works for you, fine.

It seems we both share a high opinion of our opinions.

But under the logic that I have read here, you can not claim to being know how God feels about this issue.

I may not know how God feels…but I have more of a chance finding out how God feels than you do how your dog about the subject of same sex relationships.

And since my opinion is just as valid as yours, my opinion is that “My dog and I have a very loving relationship and who are you to judge it”.

If your dog is able to provide a consenual intellectual response to your advances…you’re right…who am I ?

So you do realize that given the same logic by which you conclude that same-sex marriage is OK with God, you can not make any conclusions on how God feels concerning sex between my dog and I.

Then you are consistent. Now I disagree, but anyway.

My next question would be how would you know whether any given activity is OK with God or outside of what He designed. Or is it all ultimately a matter of your opinion?

 

[Nine_Two]

Actually I think you will find the Levitical laws that prohibit beastiality more severe in places…and those places where same sex encounters is specified it has to do with rape, violence, pagan cultures and religious mores. Perhaps beastiality falls under the same catagory as rape, pedastry, violence and coercion…but none of the passages that can be quoted that even hint at same sex encounters speak of loving, mutual, consentual relationships between two adults choosing to be in relationship with one another.

Leviticus 20:13 is pretty cut and dried. If you get to use Leviticus against bestiality (can never be sure with liberal christians) than I get to use it in my argument. In fact unless all the Jews were into BDSM and wives always had headaches, it can not be construed as relating to violence or rape.

And you mention “religious mores” I’m at a loss as to what the subject of this thread is.

 

[Publisher]

What is your faith-base, then? How do you determine what is truth and what is opinion?

I am a member of the Society of Friends. We use scripture, reason, prayer and consensus discussed through prayerful meditation and discussion based on the leading of the Spirit.

Truth is not a set of dogmas and doctrines…it is based on how one lives and conducts one’s life and how one treats their neighbor, Truth is a quality of life that holds each man and woman in high esteem and seeks to confirm the worth of persons in the eyes of God…Truth is based on the two commandments to love God and love our neighbors as ourselves.

Truth is to value “that of God” in each and every man and woman we meet. Truth tells us that we are God’s beloved and that we seek to exemplify the Light in our daily lives as we seek incarnation with Him in our world.

I understand the Quaker way of seeing the world and doing things is foreign to Catholic belief.

Doctrines and dogmas based on scripture point to the Source of Truth…but they are not the Source itself.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I am a member of the Society of Friends. We use scripture, reason, prayer and consensus discussed through prayerful meditation and discussion based on the leading of the Spirit.

I appreciate your reply. I used to live in Swarthmore PA, and knew a lot of Friends. But we never talked about faith.

Truth is not a set of dogmas and doctrines…it is based on how one lives and conducts one’s life and how one treats their neighbor, Truth is a quality of life that holds each man and woman in high esteem and seeks to confirm the worth of persons in the eyes of God…Truth is based on the two commandments to love God and love our neighbors as ourselves.

Yet there are other commandments in the NT, of which love is the greatest.

Truth is to value “that of God” in each and every man and woman we meet. Truth tells us that we are God’s beloved and that we seek to exemplify the Light in our daily lives as we seek incarnation with Him in our world.

But this is subjective. There has to be an objective Truth. Do you see value in the life of an unborn baby?

Doctrines and dogmas based on scripture point to the Source of Truth…but they are not the Source itself.

I agree.

Sorry, this is off topic.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I believe James and Matthew did as well.

No, I was really thinking about Paul wrote and not James or Matthew in regards to your question. It’s like the Apostle knew your objection 2,000 years ago.

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! - Rom 5-6

 

[2nd_Adam]

There is one silly, little question that I asked before that I have not gotten an answer to.

Given all of the logic that I have heard in this thread and the other thread concerning same sex sexual relationships.

Is it ok with God for me to have sex with my dog? Maybe if my dog and I can get married possibly? Why or why not?

This is a serious question. Given the logic that I have read in this thread and other threads I have no choice to conclude that sex between me and my dog is OK with God. But maybe we would have to get married first.

That’s pretty sad that you would compare Christian homosexual marriage with having sex with your dog. I feel sorry for people like you

 

[qui_est_ce]

No, I was really thinking about Paul wrote and not James or Matthew in regards to your question. It’s like the Apostle knew your objection 2,000 years ago.

Are you saying the Bible contradicts itself?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Are you saying the Bible contradicts itself?

Of course not, but your question was a classical one in light of the gospel. Paul sure did anticipate that kind of objection of amazing, sufficent and complete grace. The gospel of God’s grace goes against our flesh.

 

[NotTooSmart]

That’s pretty sad that you would compare Christian homosexual marriage with having sex with your dog. I feel sorry for people like you

But you are evading my question.

This is the Rush Limbaugh technique of using the absurd to make a point.

My question is given the logic that you have put forth in this and other threads, how do you know what God feels about sex with my dog? I think this is a valid question.

If you dodge this I will be forced to conclude that using the very same criteria by which you conclude that Christian homosexual marriage is OK with God, it is impossible for one to conclude that sex with my dog is not OK with God. So at the end of the day, I am left with just your opinion.