Same sex wedding

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I won’t give you my opinion on whether you should go, I’ll give the bible’s opinion.
Romans 16:17
Proverbs 1:15
I can’t count how many times the bible says to avoid the company of wicked people. Don’t ask for anyone’s opinion on this matter because ours don’t matter. All that matters is what the Lord says, and you know the answer.
 
I won’t give you my opinion on whether you should go, I’ll give the bible’s opinion.
Romans 16:17
Proverbs 1:15
I can’t count how many times the bible says to avoid the company of wicked people. Don’t ask for anyone’s opinion on this matter because ours don’t matter. All that matters is what the Lord says, and you know the answer.
Yes. Unfortunately, this has become a situation that also requires the caution to reject the specious argument that Our Lord would not want us to do anything that would lead to being shunned by those who ought to love us the most. He specifically warned his followers that following him would require just the opposite:

*"What I say to you in the darkness, speak in the light; what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Are not two sparrows sold for a small coin? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father’s knowledge. Even all the hairs of your head are counted. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

"Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father, but whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.s

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man ‘against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s enemies will be those of his household.’

“Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."*

Matt. 10:27-39

We live in times where it is imagined that following Christ rightly will not cost us the enmity of those who believe they are doing good in the world. That is not true. We live in times where religion in general and Christianity in particular are being increasingly condemned by those who claim to love humanity the most. By their fruits, we have increasing commerce in children via surrogacy. Do not believe the lies being spread, then, but hold fast to the truth we know.
 
Just a clarification… I would perhaps say ‘Roman Catholic’ teaching. If you say ‘against Christian values,’ you would be inaccurate. Many Christians - like myself - very much support marriage between same genders.
It is not unknown for someone to reject some non-negotiable part of the faith and yet continue to call themselves a Christian. There are people who deny the literal Resurrection who do that! Self-identifying with a label does not mean someone is teaching the one true faith.

How can you argue with a straight face that any of the Twelve would have tolerated an attempt at marriage between persons of the same sex? How do you presume to put aside this teaching…for what? So that you will be accepted in the world? Because you cannot believe that we can be afflicted by desires that we may not morally act upon?

The concept that marriage is possible between persons of the same sex is not a negotiable point, it is not a mere matter of cultural custom, and acceptance of this teaching is not some evolution in understanding. It is a departure from divine law as it has been passed down for century upon century.

If it is not entirely clear that this teaching is beyond negotiation, the tell me what teaching is unalterable?
 
How can you argue with a straight face that any of the Twelve would have tolerated an attempt at marriage between persons of the same sex? /QUOTE]

I don’t believe it ever came up.

As for today, I believe that millions of faith-filled Christians strongly believe that God is calling for marriage between same gendered people. We can disagree on why that is so, but there is no arguing that faith communities are listening and responding positively. Where I live in San Francisco there clergy and laity alike in such marriages. I honor people like Archbishop Desmond Tutu who listens to God and says this is where we are being led. These are my people and this is my Church. This is where I find God and it gives me great joy to be in communion with many other branches of the Church who find God here too.
 
How can you argue with a straight face that any of the Twelve would have tolerated an attempt at marriage between persons of the same sex?
I don’t believe it ever came up.

As for today, I believe that millions of faith-filled Christians strongly believe that God is calling for marriage between same gendered people. We can disagree on why that is so, but there is no arguing that faith communities are listening and responding positively. Where I live in San Francisco there clergy and laity alike in such marriages. I honor people like Archbishop Desmond Tutu who listens to God and says this is where we are being led. These are my people and this is my Church. This is where I find God and it gives me great joy to be in communion with many other branches of the Church who find God here too.
 
I don’t believe it ever came up.

As for today, I believe that millions of faith-filled Christians strongly believe that God is calling for marriage between same gendered people.
I wouldn’t call those people Christians. If you are faith-filled you can’t willingly go against the bible and call yourself Christian.
I honor people like Archbishop Desmond Tutu who listens to God and says this is where we are being led.
I believe there is a special place in Hell for people who willfully lead people away from God and pervert his word.
These are my people and this is my Church. This is where I find God and it gives me great joy to be in communion with many other branches of the Church who find God here too.
Please find a new Church. Your Church cannot pick and chose which of God’s laws to follow as it is doing.
 
I don’t believe it ever came up.

As for today, I believe that millions of faith-filled Christians strongly believe that God is calling for marriage between same gendered people. We can disagree on why that is so, but there is no arguing that faith communities are listening and responding positively. Where I live in San Francisco there clergy and laity alike in such marriages. I honor people like Archbishop Desmond Tutu who listens to God and says this is where we are being led. These are my people and this is my Church. This is where I find God and it gives me great joy to be in communion with many other branches of the Church who find God here too.
It never came up - that may be so. In fact, I believe there is not a single positive example of a sexual relationship between same sex persons in the entirety of scripture.

What is the evidence of this calling by God for SSM that you see? Clearly scripture is not supportive. Are sure you are not merely responding to a sense of compassion and perceived justice? Do you believe God also is calling for polyandry ?
 
I don’t believe it ever came up.
*Then the apostles and presbyters, in agreement with the whole church, decided to choose representatives and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. The ones chosen were Judas, who was called Barsabbas, and Silas, leaders among the brothers.

This is the letter delivered by them: “The apostles and the presbyters, your brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia of Gentile origin: greetings. Since we have heard that some of our number [who went out] without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind, we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So we are sending Judas and Silas who will also convey this same message by word of mouth: ‘It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.’”* Acts 15:22-29

Nero, who was emperor from 54–68 AD, engaged in a same-sex marriage, so it is not as if the question was so far in the future that it could not be imagined. So yes, it came up. You and I know it was strictly forbidden by the Church beyond all strictness. It is unthinkable that any of the Twelve or Paul would consider such a thing for so long as a heartbeat. Have no doubt about that. We are not to take on the moral customs of non-believers:

For, talking empty bombast, they seduce with licentious desires of the flesh those who have barely escaped from people who live in error. They promise them freedom, though they themselves are slaves of corruption, for a person is a slave of whatever overcomes him. For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of [our] Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. What is expressed in the true proverb has happened to them, “The dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A bathed sow returns to wallowing in the mire.” 2 Pet. 2:18-22

and

Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability. But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity. 2 Pet. 3:17-18
As for today, I believe that millions of faith-filled Christians strongly believe that God is calling for marriage between same gendered people. We can disagree on why that is so, but there is no arguing that faith communities are listening and responding positively. Where I live in San Francisco there clergy and laity alike in such marriages. I honor people like Archbishop Desmond Tutu who listens to God and says this is where we are being led. These are my people and this is my Church. This is where I find God and it gives me great joy to be in communion with many other branches of the Church who find God here too.
Tell me: Was it predicted in the early Church that the later Church would mature in understanding and so take on a more expansive view of moral law, going beyond what was taught by the Apostles, or was it predicted that false teachers would come along and lead all astray except for the blessed few who held fast to the faith as it had been handed down? Why, then, would the thought of kicking off the boundaries handed down to us in favor of some new fashion, a fashion in exact opposition to what was taught by the Apostles, be a prospect that would fill a Christian with joy rather than horror?

Take stock and choose who you will follow: the way of the world or the way of the Lord. Do not deceive yourself! There is not a way that encompasses all, so you must choose one or the other. The New Testament could hardly be any more plain about that point.
 
I wouldn’t call those people Christians. If you are faith-filled you can’t willingly go against the bible and call yourself Christian.
I believe there is a special place in Hell for people who willfully lead people away from God and pervert his word.
Please find a new Church. Your Church cannot pick and chose which of God’s laws to follow as it is doing.
I would charitably remind you that you are in the Non Catholic Forum where the guidelines in part state:

‘It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs.’

I am a member of the Church, as are you, and I, along with my fellow Episcopalians, faithfully worship Jesus Christ. I would never question a person’s beliefs and traditions, and hope that you respect not only MY beliefs but those of my Church. You may not agree, but respect must be present.

Thank you.
 
I wouldn’t call those people Christians. If you are faith-filled you can’t willingly go against the bible and call yourself Christian.

I believe there is a special place in Hell for people who willfully lead people away from God and pervert his word.

Please find a new Church. Your Church cannot pick and chose which of God’s laws to follow as it is doing.
I would charitably remind you that one of the guidelines for those in the Forum states:

‘Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice.’ And to note that per the Non Catholic forum, ‘It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs.’

I am a member of the Church, as are you, and I, along with my fellow Episcopalians, faithfully worship Jesus Christ. I would never question a person’s beliefs and traditions, and hope that you respect not only MY beliefs but those of my Church. You may not agree, but respect must be present.

Thank you.
 
What is the evidence of this calling by God for SSM that you see? Clearly scripture is not supportive. Are sure you are not merely responding to a sense of compassion and perceived justice? Do you believe God also is calling for polyandry ?
My Bishops, Church leaders, and governing body have prayed and sought the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Their discernment of course took in Scriptural interpretation as well as tradition and reasoning (known as the Anglican Tripod). The change in the canons came as a result of all these things. Are they responding to a sense of compassion? I would hope so. Perceived justice? I would tend to call it equality before God, but that is just semantics.

I see other faith communities discerning in the same way, so be assured that many Christians (and Jews) are hearing God also. I am not saying some are right and some are wrong. Far from it. But I AM saying that this is how God is calling us.

And excuse me but ‘polyandry?’ I’m sorry but what has that got to do with the cost of tea in China?
 
My Bishops, Church leaders, and governing body have prayed and sought the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Their discernment of course took in Scriptural interpretation as well as tradition and reasoning (known as the Anglican Tripod). The change in the canons came as a result of all these things. Are they responding to a sense of compassion? I would hope so. Perceived justice? I would tend to call it equality before God, but that is just semantics.

I see other faith communities discerning in the same way, so be assured that many Christians (and Jews) are hearing God also. I am not saying some are right and some are wrong. Far from it. But I AM saying that this is how God is calling us.
You cite as evidence the decisions of others arrived at in the late 20th century, and contrary to all prior Church teaching. There is nothing to support this in Scripture, nor in Church Tradition. Can you outline the reasoning that suggests that the sexual acts between 2 men pleases God? It seems to me the tripod is without legs.
And excuse me but ‘polyandry?’ I’m sorry but what has that got to do with the cost of tea in China?
I could well ask you - man+man - what has that got to do with Marriage?

Review this short video and consider the two alternative interpretations of marriage it identifies.
youtube.com/watch?v=an2TU58LlTE
One of those interpretations (the 2nd) would readily admit man+man. But it should be evident that that interpretation equally admits more than 2 persons, be it polyandry, polygamy, polygyny or any other variation that brings joy and happiness to the participants.
 
I would charitably remind you that one of the guidelines for those in the Forum states:

‘Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice.’ And to note that per the Non Catholic forum, ‘It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs.’

I am a member of the Church, as are you, and I, along with my fellow Episcopalians, faithfully worship Jesus Christ. I would never question a person’s beliefs and traditions, and hope that you respect not only MY beliefs but those of my Church. You may not agree, but respect must be present.

Thank you.
I apologize if I offended you, but I simply don’t believe that your Bishop is talking to God and that God wants us to accept gay marriage. I always go by scripture and verse above all else. And I honestly put very little into peoples’ opinions and beliefs unless it is backed up by scripture and verse. And in your case I believe you are being led astray and cannot back up your beliefs on gays based on scripture and verse.
 
I am sorry but this discussion has gotten quite off topic and it is partially my fault. It began with moving from wedding attendance to defining Catholic. From there it moved to how Christians and Christian denominations are or are not supporting marriage between same gendered people.

I will charitably end my part in the discussion not related to the OP’s concern.
 
I apologize if I offended you, but I simply don’t believe that your Bishop is talking to God and that God wants us to accept gay marriage. I always go by scripture and verse above all else. And I honestly put very little into peoples’ opinions and beliefs unless it is backed up by scripture and verse. And in your case I believe you are being led astray and cannot back up your beliefs on gays based on scripture and verse.
I agree, but nevertheless, I also agree that ComplineSanFran’s sincerely held beliefs should be respected. I think we should simply make our case, I believe ComplineSanFran already knows where we stand, and we should simply pray for him/her.

I hope this has helped

May God Bless you and ComplineSanFran

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
I don’t believe it ever came up.

As for today, I believe that millions of faith-filled Christians strongly believe that God is calling for marriage between same gendered people. We can disagree on why that is so, but there is no arguing that faith communities are listening and responding positively. Where I live in San Francisco there clergy and laity alike in such marriages. I honor people like Archbishop Desmond Tutu who listens to God and says this is where we are being led. These are my people and this is my Church. This is where I find God and it gives me great joy to be in communion with many other branches of the Church who find God here too.
So sorry to hear it. 😦
 
I agree, but nevertheless, I also agree that ComplineSanFran’s sincerely held beliefs should be respected. I think we should simply make our case, I believe ComplineSanFran already knows where we stand, and we should simply pray for him/her.

I hope this has helped

May God Bless you and ComplineSanFran

Thank you for reading
Josh
Well, actually, thinking about this, I need to correct it.

I think ComplineSanFran is wrong in his/her belief here, along with those who follow his/her belief here, I don’t respect those beliefs at all but I do respect ComplineSanFran.

Just like I don’t respect any other belief that’s enemy to the truth, but I do respect the people who espouse them and pray for them.

My apologies, please disregard this previous post of mine.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
My Bishops, Church leaders, and governing body have prayed and sought the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Their discernment of course took in Scriptural interpretation as well as tradition and reasoning (known as the Anglican Tripod). The change in the canons came as a result of all these things. Are they responding to a sense of compassion? I would hope so. Perceived justice? I would tend to call it equality before God, but that is just semantics.

I see other faith communities discerning in the same way, so be assured that many Christians (and Jews) are hearing God also. I am not saying some are right and some are wrong. Far from it. But I AM saying that this is how God is calling us.

And excuse me but ‘polyandry?’ I’m sorry but what has that got to do with the cost of tea in China?
Again: Why, if reading the plain meaning of Holy Scriptures, would you automatically assume that a Christian community who chose to depart from the teachings of the Apostles are hearing the call of God? That, friend, is totally the diagnosis of exclusion, for there are a hundred unworthy reasons why people have always departed from the faith that have to be ruled out first. Please forgive us, if you must, but you have to know that as we love you we are duty-bound to object to this line of reasoning! The warnings about this peril are so unequivocal and so numerous in the Scriptures and in the writings of the early Church, we are left with no other choice!

There is no indication whatsoever in Holy Scriptures that the Holy Spirit will lead us all in hundreds of different directions, but rather abundant warnings that those who wander off to follow wisdom of their own making are being misled. We may not judge them, but neither may we nod at their departure as if waving bon voyage to a friend setting off on a great and worthy adventure! We must try with all our might to persuade them to turn back!

The New Testament warns over and over of just this thing, because it took place then even as it is taking place now!

*I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingly power: proclaim the word; be persistent whether it is convenient or inconvenient; convince, reprimand, encourage through all patience and teaching. For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths. But you, be self-possessed in all circumstances; put up with hardship; perform the work of an evangelist; fulfill your ministry. *2 Tim. 4:1-5

How can the assumption be made that anyone following their own way over the teachings of the Apostles ought to be attributed to the promptings of the Holy Spirit when the early Church so clearly warned about the dangers of chasing after theological novelty, especially those which encourage believers to indulge the desires of the flesh in just those ways the Greek and Roman pagans did who surrounded the early Church, and refusing to tolerate sound doctrine? Do you think those Greeks and Romans were not following the best they knew? They who did not know better have an excuse, but what excuse has a Christian who has had access to sound doctrine practically from the cradle and certainly in adulthood, if that Christian chose to avail himself of it?

No, it is plain from the Holy Scriptures that to teach the faith will draw the ire of the secular world, not its praise. It is plain that one will be subject to the criticism of false teachers, that one will be duty-bound to teach the faith as it has been handed down over one’s own “wisdom.”
 
I am sorry but this discussion has gotten quite off topic and it is partially my fault. It began with moving from wedding attendance to defining Catholic. From there it moved to how Christians and Christian denominations are or are not supporting marriage between same gendered people.

I will charitably end my part in the discussion not related to the OP’s concern.
ComplineSanFran, you are a patient and gracious person, but you have to know how concerned we are for you. This is why we argue this point; that is: because it is our duty to speak to those who accept error in the belief that they have found the truth. For while you may be without any culpability, as God alone can judge your soul and the understanding from which you take your direction, we know what has been handed on to us, we know what our duty is, particularly to those who seek to belong wholly to Christ, and that we will have no excuse if we fail in that duty. With you we know we do not throw pearls before swine, but speak to one whose heart is open to follow the truth.

That is why we cannot be silent, but must take the chance of stirring up strife in order to offer this correction to you. We have to be sad that you do not appear to be open to this correction, but we are yet thankful that you have not found this any occasion for enmity between us.
 
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