San Diego bishop calls for a practical ‘apology’ to L.G.B.T. Catholics

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In my Episcopal parish in San Francisco, there are many LGBT men and women – there are couples, some married, some living together, some just together. There are families with children. There are single gay and lesbian members. They serve at the altar, they read lessons, they sit on our Vestry, they preach, they teach, they are clergy and they are lay.

That is how we are inclusive. Is that similar in your parishes?
The practice varies widely from parish to parish. I know of some parishes that are similar to what you describe. I have not visited all of the ~18K parishes in the US, but I am guessing the norm is somewhat less inclusive than what you describe.
 
We are not Espiscopalians. The words “inclusive” and “diversity” are not doctrinal terms. Look to Catholic Church teaching on this subject to get the answers you are looking for. I do not create Catholic Church doctrine.

Ed
I know what the RCC teaching is on this subject. I’m just pointing out that if you want to welcome people in your parishes, without any qualifiers or judgment, then this is what it looks like.
 
I know what the RCC teaching is on this subject. I’m just pointing out that if you want to welcome people in your parishes, without any qualifiers or judgment, then this is what it looks like.
Are there any restrictions whatsoever on who can serve in ministries in the Episcopal Church?
 
The practice varies widely from parish to parish. I know of some parishes that are similar to what you describe. I have not visited all of the ~18K parishes in the US, but I am guessing the norm is somewhat less inclusive than what you describe.
I have traveled extensively and for the most part, TEC is pretty inclusive. It depends on geography, of course. CA has many more LGBT than perhaps other states, so our percentages in the parishes are much higher. I think it all depends on how church community is formed and how we care for each other. There is always - always - room to make that better. Perhaps the Bishop is saying that it’s time to move forward in both inclusion and in care, as well as saying out loud, ‘We have not been kind and loving to you.’
 
Are there any restrictions whatsoever on who can serve in ministries in the Episcopal Church?
Priesthood? Diaconate? Of course. There is a lengthy screening process on the parish level, the Diocesan level, and by the Bishop. Then there is seminary, which one must get through.

Or are you speaking of lay ministries?
 
If lesbian or gay couple wanted their child baptised, would they be treated the same as a straight couple would be by their parish? Would both their names be listed on the baptismal records as the child’s parents? Would they be invited to enroll their child at the parish school and other parish activities for kids?

If a married gay or lesbian individual wanted to convert, would their marital status be recognized by those involved in RCIA at the parish and diocesan levels? Would they feel as welcomed in participating in the sacraments as a married straight person by their priest or the EMHC?

How welcomed would a married gay/lesbian couple be be if they expressed an interest in becoming involved in parish life? Would they be able to teach 1st communion and confirmation classes if properly qualified? Would they be welcomed at parish social funtions as a married couple? If the parish sponsored a trip, would they be able to travel as a married couple and be accommodated as a married couple vis-a-vis sleeping arrangements?

Would the surviving spouse be able to get a Catholic funeral for their deceased loved one? Would a gay or lesbian married couple be afforded side-by-side spots in a Catholic cemetary like a married straight couple? Could they get a headstone that reflected their marriage and their children?

If an openly gay, lesbian, or trans teenage parishioner expressed an interest in attending World Youth Day, would they be afforded the same fundraising and sponsorship opportunities as their straight or cisgender counterparts?
 
There’s no shortage of Catholics that aren’t shy about saying that they will destroy the family and are damaging our society with their marriages. Are all priests welcoming of gay people? They tend to get fired from Catholic schools. You have people like the Lepanto Institute on a witch hunt to expose all the gay people working for Catholic orgs. That’s what persecution looks like.
Why do Catholics say gay marriage will destroy the family and damage society? Wishful/hateful thinking? No, it’s not.

lifesitenews.com/news/pope-francis-condemns-abortion-euthanasia-same-sex-marriage-in-exhortation

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

I do not go around on forums to bash gay people or anyone. The Catholic in the pew who understands Church teaching knows, or should know, that the changes LGBT people want are changes to Church doctrine.

I’ve known LGBT people and never had a thing to say about their private lives. Then they, not the Catholic in the pew, demanded gay marriage, first at the voting booth. It was voted down twice in California. I could not believe my eyes when my local newspaper showed a gay couple who could not get married in my state and warned of a “brain drain” if people didn’t change things. In fact, a letter from a reader appeared shortly after same-sex marriage was voted down in my state. The writer called our state “The great hate state.” Then the Supreme Court settled the issue. The President ‘evolved’ on the issue. Reading LGBT web sites just prior, LGBT activists were upset that the President was ‘not moving fast enough.’

So no, the Catholic in the pew did not start any of this. So, our kids in school are getting story books where the character is ‘out and proud.’

Ed
 
Geesh!!! All of this apology stuff is beginning to give me a complex. I think I’ll quote Cardinal Wilfrid Fox Napier, Archbishop of Durban, South Africa who recently made the following comment about this recent “apolgy tour”… “God help us! Next we’ll have to apologize for teaching that adultery is a sin! Political Correctness is today’s major heresy!”

Peace, Mark
 
Priesthood? Diaconate? Of course. There is a lengthy screening process on the parish level, the Diocesan level, and by the Bishop. Then there is seminary, which one must get through.

Or are you speaking of lay ministries?
So I assume you would not let anybody into a lay or ordained ministry that was not in agreement with the doctrines of your church? 30 years ago Episcopalians did not allow homosexuals to be ministers to be ministers. What changed? God change his mind? Or is truth fungible?
 
If lesbian or gay couple wanted their child baptised, would they be treated the same as a straight couple would be by their parish? Would both their names be listed on the baptismal records as the child’s parents? Would they be invited to enroll their child at the parish school and other parish activities for kids?

If a married gay or lesbian individual wanted to convert, would their marital status be recognized by those involved in RCIA at the parish and diocesan levels? Would they feel as welcomed in participating in the sacraments as a married straight person by their priest or the EMHC?

How welcomed would a married gay/lesbian couple be be if they expressed an interest in becoming involved in parish life? Would they be able to teach 1st communion and confirmation classes if properly qualified? Would they be welcomed at parish social funtions as a married couple? If the parish sponsored a trip, would they be able to travel as a married couple and be accommodated as a married couple vis-a-vis sleeping arrangements?

Would the surviving spouse be able to get a Catholic funeral for their deceased loved one? Would a gay or lesbian married couple be afforded side-by-side spots in a Catholic cemetary like married straight couple? Could they get a headstone that reflected their marriage and their children?

If an openly gay, lesbian, or trans teenage parishioner expressed an interest in attending World Youth Day, would they be afforded the same fundraising and sponsorship opportunities as their straight a cisgender counterparts?
Call any Catholic parish and ask to speak to a priest. That’s your best bet.

cisgender is a meaningless invention.

Ed
 
I strongly suspect that alot of people now what total silence on the topic of homosexuality. Don’t call it a sin because it will make people feel unwelcome.
 
There’s no shortage of Catholics that aren’t shy about saying that they will destroy the family and are damaging our society with their marriages. A.
You mean Catholics like the Pope? (see my sig line and the document it references.)
Are all priests welcoming of gay people?
Are all priests welcoming, to anyone or everyone? No, they are humans with human failures just like anyone else. Is there room for improvement? Yes. Will it ever be perfect? No.
They tend to get fired from Catholic schools.
“Gay” people do not tend to get fired from Catholic schools. :mad: People who act out publicly in disregard to Church teaching and who violate the terms of their contracts tend to get fired from Catholic schools.
You have people like the Lepanto Institute on a witch hunt to expose all the gay people working for Catholic orgs.
I know the Lepanto Institute called out Catholic Relief Services when one of their senior executives got “married” to another man. That’s not a “witch hunt”; it’s simple accountability. Would you want a KKK member serving in the EEOC? Same thing with Catholic organizations. Those who oppose the Church publicly should not be in positions of leadership in Catholic organizations. But I have never heard of the Lepanto Institute or any other group trying to expose “all the gay people” working for Catholic organizations.
 
Geesh!!! All of this apology stuff is beginning to give me a complex. I think I’ll quote Cardinal Wilfrid Fox Napier, Archbishop of Durban, South Africa who recently made the following comment about this recent “apolgy tour”… “God help us! Next we’ll have to apologize for teaching that adultery is a sin! Political Correctness is today’s major heresy!”

Peace, Mark
In mentioning the Cardinal Archbishop from South Africa, it is important to note:

*Update, June 29:
In a series of subsequent Twitter exchanges, Napier clarified that he was not criticizing Pope Francis.

“I said: political correctness is THE major heresy! I didn’t in any way define what is PC or not!” he wrote.
He wrote that Pope Francis’s call for an apology referred also to others “who are marginalised, and who should be included in the Church’s apology for not intervening on their behalf.*
He released this statement of clarification after Pope Francis not only endorsed what Cardinal Marx called for but expanded the initiative to other aggrieved persons. Cardinal Napier is in agreement.

Lifesite news has updated their original story so that it may be clearly understood that in fact, Cardinal Napier is in support of the initiative:

lifesitenews.com/news/african-cardinal-rebukes-cardinal-marxs-call-for-apology-to-homosexuals
 
So I assume you would not let anybody into a lay or ordained ministry that was not in agreement with the doctrines of your church? 30 years ago Episcopalians did not allow homosexuals to be ministers to be ministers. What changed? God change his mind? Or is truth fungible?
The Episcopal Church does not have a checklist so much. We have our creeds and doctrines but there is a lot of room for thinking, praying, and discerning one’s theology. Lay people do not have to go through doctrinal grilling in order to be on the Altar Guild. You are seeing things through the Roman lens. Don’t judge other branches of the Church for having a different lens.

But this is a bit off topic.
 
If lesbian or gay couple wanted their child baptised, would they be treated the same as a straight couple would be by their parish?
They would probably be treated in the same way as any other unmarried couple seeking Baptism. There is a higher level of scrutiny since the priest needs to make sure the child will be raised in the faith.
Would both their names be listed on the baptismal records as the child’s parents?
Of course not. A Baptismal certificate lists mother, father and sponsors.
Would they be invited to enroll their child at the parish school and other parish activities for kids?
I don’t see why not.
If a married gay or lesbian individual wanted to convert, would their marital status be recognized by those involved in RCIA at the parish and diocesan levels?
No, a same sex “marriage” cannot be recognized in any way by the parish or the diocese. They would be welcomed in RCIA in the same way that a couple with remarriage without an annulment would. They are welcome to study and discern but not able to be received into the Church until they have regularized their relationship situation. It’s not about being in a same-sex relationship. It’s about not being in a valid marriage.
Would they feel as welcomed in participating in the sacraments as a married straight person by their priest or the EMHC?
If they are publicly living together as a couple, no, they would not be properly disposed to receive Communion. I doubt any priest would turn them away at the Communion rail/line but they would be committing sacrilege if they presented themselves for Communion.
How welcomed would a married gay/lesbian couple be be if they expressed an interest in becoming involved in parish life? Would they be able to teach 1st communion and confirmation classes if properly qualified?
In most diocese, including my own, a person who is not a Catholic in good standing cannot be a CCE teacher. That would include someone in a same sex “marriage”, in a cohabitating relationship or someone remarried without an annulment.
Would they be welcomed at parish social funtions as a married couple?
That would depend on the function. A parish picnic, sure. A dinner dance for married couples, probably not.
If the parish sponsored a trip, would they be able to travel as a married couple and be accommodated as a married couple vis-a-vis sleeping arrangements?
When our parish has trips, the individuals make their own room arrangements through the travel agency. I don’t see why it would be any different that two friends who wanted to share a room on a trip.
Would the surviving spouse be able to get a Catholic funeral for their deceased loved one?
The funeral is not for the surviving spouse, it is for the deceased. Yes, the Church will have a funeral for any deceased Catholic.
Would a gay or lesbian married couple be afforded side-by-side spots in a Catholic cemetary like a married straight couple?
I don’t see why not. Lot of people are buried side-by-side, not just married couples.
Could they get a headstone that reflected their marriage and their children?
Maybe.
If an openly gay, lesbian, or trans teenage parishioner expressed an interest in attending World Youth Day, would they be afforded the same fundraising and sponsorship opportunities as their straight or cisgender counterparts?
I don’t see why not. They certainly wouldn’t be excluded from fundraising but parishioners tend to sponsor those youth who they feel are good representatives of the parish. Depending on how being “openly gay, lesbian or trans” was being acted out in parish life, they may or may not be seen as good representatives.
 
Ed,

I don’t doubt your piety or righteousness, but in shear numbers you may be a voice in the wilderness. There are many, even on this site, who talk about the virtues of treating others as Christ commanded, but who make little effort to turn speech into action. Those, not you, were the subject of my diatribe.
Can you offer some concrete examples? That would help define things.

Best,
Ed
 
The Episcopal Church does not have a checklist so much. We have our creeds and doctrines but there is a lot of room for thinking, praying, and discerning one’s theology. Lay people do not have to go through doctrinal grilling in order to be on the Altar Guild. You are seeing things through the Roman lens. Don’t judge other branches of the Church for having a different lens.

But this is a bit off topic.
So it would be OK for an epicopalean to reject the divinity of Christ and the Reseurction?
 
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