San Diego bishop calls for a practical ‘apology’ to L.G.B.T. Catholics

[TMC]

I guess I’m curious to know upon what basis do you make the assertion that all people are children of God? And what distinction do you make then regarding Christians being considered children of God?

I base it on my understanding of Scripture and Faith; and on the Pope’s repeated statements to the same effect. I think that Christians are certainly children of God, but I believe we all are. Many Christians have a better understanding of their relationship with God, which often leads to a deeper understanding of the relationship between God and His creation. But non-Christians are nonetheless also children of God, whether they understand that or not.

 

[JosieN]

I base it on my understanding of Scripture and Faith; and on the Pope’s repeated statements to the same effect. I think that Christians are certainly children of God, but I believe we all are. Many Christians have a better understanding of their relationship with God, which often leads to a deeper understanding of the relationship between God and His creation. But non-Christians are nonetheless also children of God, whether they understand that or not.

** "But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name, John 1:12
**
Scripture says to those who did accept him (Jesus Christ the Son of God) were given the power to become children of God. This is my understanding of scripture. How does your understanding of scripture support your belief that everyone (even those who deny Jesus Christ is the Son of God) can be called children of God?

I know what the Pope has said. He calls everyone children of God, even those who believe in other gods like Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and even atheists. I think he means we are all created by God, and we are all God’s creation. He speaks a different language than us. Maybe it is translated incorrectly.

 

[TMC]

** "But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believe in his name, John 1:12
**
Scripture says to those who did accept him (Jesus Christ the Son of God) were given the power to become children of God. This is my understanding of scripture. How does your understanding of scripture support your belief that everyone (even those who deny Jesus Christ is the Son of God) can be called children of God?

I know what the Pope has said. He calls everyone children of God, even those who believe in other gods like Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and even atheists. I think he means we are all created by God, and we are all God’s creation. He speaks a different language than us. Maybe it is translated incorrectly.

The Muslims do not believe in a different God than Christians.

I have explained my position, I understand that you disagree. I think that the fact that the Pope agrees with me at least shows that my position is consistent with Catholicism.

Why is it so important to claim that the vast majority of all people are denied the ability to call God Father? Why the need to claim special status, and reduce the status and dignity of billions of others? That is what I cannot understand.

 

[zz912]

I base it on my understanding of Scripture and Faith; and on the Pope’s repeated statements to the same effect. I think that Christians are certainly children of God, but I believe we all are. Many Christians have a better understanding of their relationship with God, which often leads to a deeper understanding of the relationship between God and His creation. But non-Christians are nonetheless also children of God, whether they understand that or not.

Is there a change in status that happens when we’re baptized? When answering, please cite the relevant passages of the CCC.

 

[TMC]

Is there a change in status that happens when we’re baptized? When answering, please cite the relevant passages of the CCC.

Not here to take a quiz, if you want to look something up in the catechism you may do it yourself. I believe that there is a change in status upon baptism, but I don’t think that means that non-Christians are not children of God.

 

[JimG]

“1265; "Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,“member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.”

Baptism has a real effect, freeing one from original and actual sin, and imparting an indelible mark on the soul, making the baptized person an adopted child of God.

If we speak of the unbaptized as children of God, obviously we are using the term in a different sense. If all persons were children of God in the same way that is effected by the sacrament of Baptism, there would be no point to being baptized.

 

[Seamus_L]

“We’re all God’s children” is an old liberal catchphrase I probably first heard around 1970.

 

[graciew]

Why is it so important to claim that the vast majority of all people are denied the ability to call God Father? Why the need to claim special status, and reduce the status and dignity of billions of others? That is what I cannot understand.

Me neither…besides we need only read heaps and heaps of letters that start " Dear brothers and sisters…" to a community addressed to whoever willed to hear…or read.
Kind of makes it two plus two,four…

Brothers and sisters in Christ would give a different " touch " to baptised…
And we have presented our evidence,Your Highness!

 

[JosieN]

The Muslims do not believe in a different God than Christians.

I have explained my position, I understand that you disagree. I think that the fact that the Pope agrees with me at least shows that my position is consistent with Catholicism.

Why is it so important to claim that the vast majority of all people are denied the ability to call God Father? Why the need to claim special status, and reduce the status and dignity of billions of others? That is what I cannot understand.

The Muslims god is Allah, and I do not understand why anyone who is not redeemed by Jesus Christ would be called children of God. Because we have been redeemed by Him we can be baptized and be called adopted children of God.

I found this for you to read over. Maybe it will help you understand this better.

**Divine filiation is the Christian doctrine that Jesus Christ is the only-begotten Son of God by nature, and when Christians are redeemed by Jesus they become sons (and daughters) of God by adoption. **Because of its Biblical roots, this doctrine is held by most Christians,[1][2] but the phrase “divine filiation” is used primarily by Catholics. This doctrine is also referred to as divine sonship.

Divine filiation builds on other Christians doctrines. In the doctrine of the Trinity, God the Son is the Eternal Word spoken by God the Father. The doctrine of the Incarnation teaches that around 2000 years ago, God the Son assumed a human nature, “became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14) as Jesus of Nazareth.

Divine filiation is the centerpiece of the Gospel, the Good News: it is the reason why man was saved. And is also the purpose behind baptism.[3] According to John Paul II, divine filiation is “the deepest mystery of the Christian vocation” and “the culminating point of the mystery of our Christian life…we share in salvation, which is not only the deliverance from evil, but is first of all the fullness of good: of the supreme good of the sonship of God.”[4]

**Judaism’s view
**Fundamentally, Judaism believes that God, as the creator of time, space, energy and matter, is beyond them, and cannot be born or die. Judaism teaches that it is heretical for any man to claim to be God or a part of God; see also Idolatry in Judaism. **There is no Jewish concept of something as a “divine filiation” or “God The Son”. The Jerusalem Talmud (Ta’anit 2:1) states explicitly: “if a man claims to be God, he is a liar.” **According to Jewish scholars, the Christian concept of Divine filiation has indirect reference to the prior Jewish phrase Son of God, which is found in the Jewish Bible, referring to angels, or humans or even all mankind.

According to Judaism’s view of Jesus, Jewish scholars note that though Jesus is said to have used the phrase “my Father in Heaven” (cf. Lord’s Prayer), this common poetic Jewish expression may have been misinterpreted as literal.[12]

I hope you can you see now, why only baptized Christians can be called "children of God’. I think this explains it better than I ever could.

Here is the link I copied it from. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_filiation

 

[irenaeus1]

The Muslims do not believe in a different God than Christians.

I have explained my position, I understand that you disagree. I think that the fact that the Pope agrees with me at least shows that my position is consistent with Catholicism.

Why is it so important to claim that the vast majority of all people are denied the ability to call God Father? Why the need to claim special status, and reduce the status and dignity of billions of others? That is what I cannot understand.

Are all people heirs of the promise and co-heirs with Christ? By the way, people are not denied the ability to call God Father. It’s simply that a person cannot approach God as Father except through the Son. No one can come to the Father unless the Father beckons… and this has been revealed to us to be through His Son. No one can acknowledge the Father without acknowledging the Son. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but through the Son. You see the pattern here?

All people can be referred to as children of God only in the sense that we are all part of the human family. The human race being the crown of God’s creation does put us in a special relationship with God in regards to all of God’s creation. All people are considered His offspring in this regard. But certainly, as believers in Christ, being a child of God has a whole different meaning; spirit of adoption, heirs to the inheritance, covenant kinship, all the rights and privileges that come with this familial relationship. My goodness, the difference is HUGE. Besides, if one becomes a child of God through faith and baptism, yet all people (including unbelievers) are children of God, how can one become what one already is?

So again, what distinction do you make between everyone being a child of God and one who is a believer in Christ? In your understanding, is there really no difference?

 

[TMC]

The Muslims god is Allah, and I do not understand why anyone who is not redeemed by Jesus Christ would be called children of God. Because we have been redeemed by Him we can be baptized and be called adopted children of God.

I found this for you to read over. Maybe it will help you understand this better.

I hope you can you see now, why only baptized Christians can be called "children of God’. I think this explains it better than I ever could.

Here is the link I copied it from. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_filiation

The Church teaches definitively that there is only one God, and that Muslims worship the same God that Christians and Jews worship.

The problem is not a lack of understanding on my part. I understand your point. I simply do not agree. All people are children of God.

 

[TMC]

Are all people heirs of the promise and co-heirs with Christ? By the way, people are not denied the ability to call God Father. It’s simply that a person cannot approach God as Father except through the Son. No one can come to the Father unless the Father beckons… and this has been revealed to us to be through His Son. No one can acknowledge the Father without acknowledging the Son. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but through the Son. You see the pattern here?

All people can be referred to as children of God only in the sense that we are all part of the human family. The human race being the crown of God’s creation does put us in a special relationship with God in regards to all of God’s creation. All people are considered His offspring in this regard. But certainly, as believers in Christ, being a child of God has a whole different meaning; spirit of adoption, heirs to the inheritance, covenant kinship, all the rights and privileges that come with this familial relationship. My goodness, the difference is HUGE. Besides, if one becomes a child of God through faith and baptism, yet all people (including unbelievers) are children of God, how can one become what one already is?

So again, what distinction do you make between everyone being a child of God and one who is a believer in Christ? In your understanding, is there really no difference?

My understanding is that God does not view Christians as His children and all others as something lesser. God created all people in His image, with the same inherent dignity. He is Father to all. He recognizes that all are His children, even those that do not recognize Him. That does not mean there is no difference between religions.

 

[zz912]

My understanding is that God does not view Christians as His children and all others as something lesser. God created all people in His image, with the same inherent dignity. He is Father to all. He recognizes that all are His children, even those that do not recognize Him. That does not mean there is no difference between religions.

Through baptism, the person is raised in dignity to become an adopted child of God in covenant and communion with Him. Before such time the person is in a fallen state and under the effects of Original Sin and person sin.

This is Church teaching.

 

[Michael1978]

My understanding is that God does not view Christians as His children and all others as something lesser. God created all people in His image, with the same inherent dignity. He is Father to all. He recognizes that all are His children, even those that do not recognize Him. That does not mean there is no difference between religions.

22And it was the feast of the dedication at Jerusalem: and it was winter. 23And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24The Jews therefore came round about him, and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me. 26But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. 27My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. 28And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand. 29That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father. 30 I and the Father are one.

John 10:22-30

 

[TMC]

Through baptism, the person is raised in dignity to become an adopted child of God in covenant and communion with Him. Before such time the person is in a fallen state and under the effects of Original Sin and person sin.

This is Church teaching.

Then why does the Pope say that all people are children of God? I agree that there are plenty of Church documents that suggest you are correct (as to whether this is Church teaching). If this is Church teaching I disagree with it, and apparently the Pope does also.

 

[irenaeus1]

Then why does the Pope say that all people are children of God? I agree that there are plenty of Church documents that suggest you are correct (as to whether this is Church teaching). If this is Church teaching I disagree with it, and apparently the Pope does also.

The pope is either sloppy in his speech, or he means it exactly the way scripture and tradition have given us, which I essentially summarized in Post # 266. What’s amazing to me is that you believe there is no difference… that being in Christ, having the spirit of adoption, being an heir to the inheritance, being a co-heir with Christ, being in covenant kinship, possessing all the rights and privileges that come with this familial relationship able to cry out ‘Abba!’, being brought into the household of faith, etc., etc. is not a privilege over those who don’t possess this blessing? Really?

What scripture and faith tradition do you get this from?

 

[TMC]

The pope is either sloppy in his speech, or he means it exactly the way scripture and tradition have given us, which I essentially summarized in Post # 266. What’s amazing to me is that you believe there is no difference… that being in Christ, having the spirit of adoption, being an heir to the inheritance, being a co-heir with Christ, being in covenant kinship, possessing all the rights and privileges that come with this familial relationship able to cry out ‘Abba!’, being brought into the household of faith, etc., etc. is not a privilege over those who don’t possess this blessing? Really?

What scripture and faith tradition do you get this from?

The Pope means what he says, and he has said repeatedly that we are all God’s children, Christians and non-Christians alike. I agree with him. I understand that you do not. That is how I read scripture and how I understand God’s relationship to humankind. I don’t have a proof text to offer you because my understanding is not based on a single passage, but on a lifetime of prayer and reflection. I am not saying that should convince you, but the fact that the Pope (and, I believe, many others) agree with me gives me comfort that my position is at least consistent with Catholicism.

 

[JosieN]

The Pope means what he says, and he has said repeatedly that we are all God’s children, Christians and non-Christians alike. I agree with him. I understand that you do not. That is how I read scripture and how I understand God’s relationship to humankind. I don’t have a proof text to offer you because my understanding is not based on a single passage, but on a lifetime of prayer and reflection. I am not saying that should convince you, but the fact that the Pope (and, I believe, many others) agree with me gives me comfort that my position is at least consistent with Catholicism.

It has been repeatedly explained to you, using scripture, the Catholic Catechism, Catholic doctrine, etc. to explain why non-Christians cannot be children of God.

Our redemption was necessary to become God’s children, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, became man and suffered and died on the cross for this reason, Jesus offered himself for us so we could be baptized and be free of original sin, why do you not understand this? When you do not accept Him or His teachings, how do you expect to be in God’s family? Sin separates us from God, this is what you do not see, Jesus conquered sin for us, those who do not know Jesus, are still separated from God, and though they are God’s creation, they cannot be His true children. Why would one become a Christian, if any false religion can make us a child of God?

You either believe what has been proven to you over and over again, or go with the Pope and those you say are with the Pope in his repeated message that we are all children of God. Now I do not know what the Pope means, when he says this, but he could mean we are all God’s creation, you and others may be just interpreting his message incorrectly.

 

[TMC]

It has been repeatedly explained to you, using scripture, the Catholic Catechism, Catholic doctrine, etc. to explain why non-Christians cannot be children of God.

Our redemption was necessary to become God’s children, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, became man and suffered and died on the cross for this reason, Jesus offered himself for us so we could be baptized and be free of original sin, why do you not understand this? When you do not accept Him or His teachings, how do you expect to be in God’s family? Sin separates us from God, this is what you do not see, Jesus conquered sin for us, those who do not know Jesus, are still separated from God, and though they are God’s creation, they cannot be His true children. Why would one become a Christian, if any false religion can make us a child of God?

You either believe what has been proven to you over and over again, or go with the Pope and those you say are with the Pope in his repeated message that we are all children of God. Now I do not know what the Pope means, when he says this, but he could mean we are all God’s creation, you and others may be just interpreting his message incorrectly.

Nothing has been “proven.” My beliefs were not idly arrived at, and cannot be swayed by anonymous posters on line.

I find it odd that a Catholic would refer dismissively to agreeing with the Pope as if that were a bad thing. He and I certainly agree on this point, which tells me that this belief is at least allowed by the Church.

As to why one becomes a Christian - one becomes a Christian and acts as a Christian because it is the right way to live life. One does not become a Christian to get a reward, like a child seeking a candy for good behavior. If I were to learn tomorrow that there was absolutely no reward for being Christian, it would not change my behavior one bit. Christianity is not an investment I am making in the hopes of a valued pay-off. It is doing the right thing for the right reasons, regardless of costs or rewards.

 

[JosieN]

Then why does the Pope say that all people are children of God? I agree that there are plenty of Church documents that suggest you are correct (as to whether this is Church teaching). If this is Church teaching I disagree with it, and apparently the Pope does also.

I understand now what you are saying. You agree with the Pope even though plenty of Church documents suggest the Church teaching supports the belief Baptism is necessary to remove original sin, and it is through baptism we become adopted children of God. It is the Churches teaching you disagree with, and you say that apparently the Pope does also.

As I said before you may be misunderstanding what the Pope said, if so, maybe you should not base your beliefs on a misunderstanding. Going against the teachings of the Church is your choice, but I felt it necessary to help you understand why I think it is wrong to go against what has been taught to Christians and Catholics for 2000 years. Either they were wrong and you are right, or it is the other way around.