San Diego bishop calls for a practical ‘apology’ to L.G.B.T. Catholics

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Joie_de_Vivre said:
There never was any effective treatment for us to move away from, only stuff that ranged from useless to outright torture.
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That’s not true, my friend, and is contradicted by the Church’s support for the success of Courage International. couragerc.org/courage/about/

On the other hand, homosexual attacks on the Church, violent and emotional, never stop. Here is one of the most telling emotional attacks: advocate.com/religion/2015/10/29/fired-gay-priest-calls-catholic-church-violently-homophobic

The only useless to outright torture that comes to mind is the pro-homosexual “treatments” at Jonhs Hopkins, years ago.
 
Prodigal_40s said:
These artificial sexual issues are trivial in the extreme and are only given prominence due to media money and powerful promoters. We should stop talking about it and ignore it completely.
It’s only used to control people and persecute anyone who “dissent” by criticizing it specifically. Time to make it the absurd irrelevance it is by forgetting all about it. Also there are far worse sexual sins committed by the majority that need our attention and have been ignored for many years now. Focus on adultery for one and the decline of the family as a priority.
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But they’re all part of the same root problem of sexual impurity, and hedonism. I don’t believe you can separate one out from the other, in the same sense that a man who is dishonest in small things will be dishonest in big things.

The difference between homosexuality and adultery is strikingly obvious:

We don’t have adultery pride parades in every major city in this country.
We don’t have a flag for adulterers.
We don’t have the White House lit up in colors representing adultery and cheering it on.
We don’t have people being called ‘bigots’ and ‘adulterophobes’ for saying adultery is wrong and harmful, to families, children, and even the individuals involved.
We have Ashley Madison, set up for adulterers, and it’s widely condemned, not praised.
 
KSU said:
That’s not true, my friend, and is contradicted by the Church’s support for the success of Courage International. couragerc.org/courage/about/

On the other hand, homosexual attacks on the Church, violent and emotional, never stop. Here is one of the most telling emotional attacks: advocate.com/religion/2015/10/29/fired-gay-priest-calls-catholic-church-violently-homophobic

The only useless to outright torture that comes to mind is the pro-homosexual “treatments” at Jonhs Hopkins, years ago.
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There is something that I’m missing. Surely Krzysztof Charamsa must have known from reading the catechism that the Church says about homosexuality, perhaps I should clarify ’ homosexual relations’’, that it’s ‘‘disordered’’, ‘‘gravely disordered’’. God called homosexuality (homosexual acts, homosexual relations)) an abomination in the OT. If he had no intention to remain chaste and continent, why did he join? Say I love meat, could not imagine living my whole life without eating it, why would I ever want to join a vegan organization? Or he came in meaning to remain chaste but realized chastity wasn’t for him? Or he thought the Catholic Church is the one true Church, but there was this ‘‘minor’’ aspect of the Church’s teaching that he could not/would not submit to? Meaning he came in knowing full well he was not going to be faithful to one of his vows?
 
KSU said:
That’s not true, my friend, and is contradicted by the Church’s support for the success of Courage International. couragerc.org/courage/about/

On the other hand, homosexual attacks on the Church, violent and emotional, never stop. Here is one of the most telling emotional attacks: advocate.com/religion/2015/10/29/fired-gay-priest-calls-catholic-church-violently-homophobic

The only useless to outright torture that comes to mind is the pro-homosexual “treatments” at Jonhs Hopkins, years ago.
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That is not a treatment, that’s just not engaging in sex.
holyrood said:
But they’re all part of the same root problem of sexual impurity, and hedonism. I don’t believe you can separate one out from the other, in the same sense that a man who is dishonest in small things will be dishonest in big things.

The difference between homosexuality and adultery is strikingly obvious:

We don’t have adultery pride parades in every major city in this country.
We don’t have a flag for adulterers.
We don’t have the White House lit up in colors representing adultery and cheering it on.
We don’t have people being called ‘bigots’ and ‘adulterophobes’ for saying adultery is wrong and harmful, to families, children, and even the individuals involved.
We have Ashley Madison, set up for adulterers, and it’s widely condemned, not praised.
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See how much our culture has embraced fornication.
 
holyrood said:
But they’re all part of the same root problem of sexual impurity, and hedonism. I don’t believe you can separate one out from the other, in the same sense that a man who is dishonest in small things will be dishonest in big things.

The difference between homosexuality and adultery is strikingly obvious:

We don’t have adultery pride parades in every major city in this country.
We don’t have a flag for adulterers.
We don’t have the White House lit up in colors representing adultery and cheering it on.
We don’t have people being called ‘bigots’ and ‘adulterophobes’ for saying adultery is wrong and harmful, to families, children, and even the individuals involved.
We have Ashley Madison, set up for adulterers, and it’s widely condemned, not praised.
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Thank you for proving the reason why it should be ignored
 
Joie_de_Vivre said:
That is not a treatment, that’s just not engaging in sex.

See how much our culture has embraced fornication.
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Exactly and by giving it any notice, we’re endorsing it. Where I live people never mention it unless of course it involves the usual bout of persecuting freedom of speech which is what it’s really all about; a direct attack on our Lord Jesus Christ and undermining representative Government at a secular level. There is never any focus on “equality” and “live and let live”. Tyranny masquerading as a human right and unfortunately it comes from the EU and the USA…I’m sorry to say.
I voted Brexit with great “pride” 👍
 
Compaq said:
I would argue that the reason why they feel “rejected” is because they disagree with the Church’s constant teaching on the issue of homosexuality. They want the church to say that homosexual acts are no longer a sin and that they can now do as they please. 🤷
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The is 100% the truth. The church has done nothing wrong. To tell Homosexuals that Homosexual sex is a sin isnt wrong nor do Homosexual deserve an apology from the church for being told homosexual sex is a sin.
 
I’d like to see some apologies from those who pressured the church to accept men with known homosexual tendencies into seminaries. Look what happened. Why is the press refusing to acknowledge that the abuse scandal within the church is almost entirely about boys? This is a homosexual issue, as much as or more than, a pedophile issue. But the media doesn’t want to talk about that.

I’d like to see apologies from those who have portrayed the church as being full of child molesters, when in fact the rate of molestation against boys is much higher in any other profession, and the rate of men seeking out pubescent boys (which is invariably what we’re talking about in the church scandals) is much MUCH higher among homosexual men. They even have a word for those who particularly like pubescent boys.

What about an apology from NAMBLA-North American Man-Boy Love Association–whose slogan is ‘sex before eight or it’s too late?’ Maybe it’s time they and the press and everyone who has attacked the Catholic Church and Catholics start apologizing for their horrendous double standards.

How about an apology for raising health insurance rates by practicing an unhealthy lifestyle? I’m quizzed on my lifestyle. I’ll have higher rates if I smoke. Motorcyclists must wear helmets and drivers must wear seatbelts in part because the medical care from severe injuries impacts everyone’s rates. Yet I’m supposed to look the other way and not notice an entire group of people living a very unhealthy lifestyle, which impacts my rates, too.

Treatment for AIDS is not cheap, and we’re all supposed to pretend that these are innocent victims, when in fact most people with AIDS were doing things that they knew could contract such a disease. But I’m supposed to not only feel sorry for them, I’m supposed to apologize to them for…for what?

I have throughout my life had friends from all spectrums, all parts of society, including friends who are gay. I do not hate anyone. But just as I don’t believe my friends who smoke or drink heavily or engage in swinging (yes, I had a friend who did that) are engaging in healthy or wise behaviors, neither do I need to pretend that homosexuality is good or healthy, for individuals or society. It’s not.
 
holyrood said:
I’d like to see some apologies from those who pressured the church to accept men with known homosexual tendencies into seminaries. Look what happened. Why is the press refusing to acknowledge that the abuse scandal within the church is almost entirely about boys? This is a homosexual issue, as much as or more than, a pedophile issue. But the media doesn’t want to talk about that.

I’d like to see apologies from those who have portrayed the church as being full of child molesters, when in fact the rate of molestation against boys is much higher in any other profession, and the rate of men seeking out pubescent boys (which is invariably what we’re talking about in the church scandals) is much MUCH higher among homosexual men. They even have a word for those who particularly like pubescent boys.

What about an apology from NAMBLA-North American Man-Boy Love Association--whose slogan is ‘sex before eight or it’s too late?’ Maybe it’s time they and the press and everyone who has attacked the Catholic Church and Catholics start apologizing for their horrendous double standards.

How about an apology for raising health insurance rates by practicing an unhealthy lifestyle? I’m quizzed on my lifestyle. I’ll have higher rates if I smoke. Motorcyclists must wear helmets and drivers must wear seatbelts in part because the medical care from severe injuries impacts everyone’s rates. Yet I’m supposed to look the other way and not notice an entire group of people living a very unhealthy lifestyle, which impacts my rates, too.

Treatment for AIDS is not cheap, and we’re all supposed to pretend that these are innocent victims, when in fact most people with AIDS were doing things that they knew could contract such a disease. But I’m supposed to not only feel sorry for them, I’m supposed to apologize to them for…for what?

I have throughout my life had friends from all spectrums, all parts of society, including friends who are gay. I do not hate anyone. But just as I don’t believe my friends who smoke or drink heavily or engage in swinging (yes, I had a friend who did that) are engaging in healthy or wise behaviors, neither do I need to pretend that homosexuality is good or healthy, for individuals or society. It’s not.
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It’s hilarious that every time you mention Harry Hay, gay rights activists accuse you of “homophobia” even before you discuss the reason. Their preemptive attack speaks volumes.
 
edwest2 said:
My question: How are LGBT Catholics excluded from the life of the Church?

There is no Catholic Church with a person who asks for your sexual orientation before you go in. And a practical observation: there is no way to tell if someone is gay or lesbian. None.

Everyone is welcome at Mass. Everyone.

God bless,
Ed
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It doesn’t matter how welcome you are when we’re in the church building if outside the building you (plural) talk about how disgusting gays are, how they should be kept separate from children, how they’re destroying society etc. We are members of the Church when we are outside the physical walls of our parishes just as much as when we are at mass. As such our behaviour towards people when we are not at church impacts their impression of how welcoming the church is. A lot of conservative Catholics do say very nasty things about gays. To expect gays with little experience with the church to discount that simply because they’re not asked their sexuality when they enter for mass is silly.

I certainly don’t think that way or do that for other denominations. I come from a Pentecostal background. I’ve never heard a sermon from a pentecostal pulpit about how evil gays are. I have however heard many Pentecostals say very nasty things about gays when they think no gays are listening. When I say “many” I mean basically all who I’ve had reason to have more than a superficial relationship with. It has very much given me the impression that gays are not welcome within their churches. In fact it was one of the very things that caused me to leave the Pentecostal denomination in my early twenties. Despite the fact that I choose to be celibate I still felt unwelcome because of what was said. Interestingly these same people will today tell me how they never have, or do, say anything nasty about gays despite the fact I’ve heard them with my own ears.

It has never ever occurred to me to discount what I hear Pentecostals saying simply because there is no one at the door when I enter asking me if I’m straight or gay and then allowing/disallowing entrance because of my answer. Instead I do all I can to avoid attending a Pentecostal service. Granted these days it has as much to do with how anti-Catholic they tend to be as it is to do with how unwelcoming they are to gays.

Note: When I refer to nasty things been said about gays, I am not referring to saying that homosexual behaviour is sinful. I am referring to things like “they’re disgusting”, “they shouldn’t be allowed near their children”, “They’re all going to hell” (Just for been attracted), referring to people with homosexual slurs etc.
 
CatholicSheila said:
It doesn’t matter how welcome you are when we’re in the church building if outside the building you (plural) talk about how disgusting gays are…
I am not referring to saying that homosexual behaviour is sinful. I am referring to things like “they’re disgusting”, “they shouldn’t be allowed near their children”, “They’re all going to hell” (Just for been attracted), referring to people with homosexual slurs etc.
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Congratulations for overcoming your temptations. May Our Lord continue helping you, and may you become a witness to others.

As for your statement that you hear Catholics say gays are disgusting and are going to hell** just because of temptations**, while I haven’t walked a mile in your moccasins, I find it hard to believe. Were you referring to other denominations?

You said, “A lot of conservative Catholics do say very nasty things about gays.” But you haven’t walked a mile in my Conservative Catholic moccasins, and based on that gratuitous accusation, it appears that you can’t tell the difference between Conservative and Progressive Catholics.

Conservative Catholics are orthodox Catholics. That is, we believe and practice what the Church teaches, including the teaching that gays always must be treated with dignity.

And that’s not easy when we see militant gays disrupt the Mass, openly parade around like half-dressed savages mocking our clergy and religious, physically attack and beat non-violent protesters praying the rosary, go all the way to the Supreme Court for the “right” to go on overnight camping trips with Boy Scouts, tell our grade school kids that homosexuality is just a normal way of life, seek out and destroy Christian small businesses that can’t participate in gay weddings, and eye laws to force our clergy to refrain from quoting scripture about homosexuality.

Three times in my life, homosexual men attempted perverted sex: once as a boy by a night watchman, once by a college professor, and once late in the evening by an attorney in a law office where I was interning. Each attempt turned my stomach, so that today, to say I merely hate homosexuality, would be a gross understatement.

Anyway, welcome, and pray for us as we pray for you.
 
CatholicSheila said:
It doesn’t matter how welcome you are when we’re in the church building if outside the building you (plural) talk about how disgusting gays are, how they should be kept separate from children, how they’re destroying society etc. We are members of the Church when we are outside the physical walls of our parishes just as much as when we are at mass. As such our behaviour towards people when we are not at church impacts their impression of how welcoming the church is. A lot of conservative Catholics do say very nasty things about gays. To expect gays with little experience with the church to discount that simply because they’re not asked their sexuality when they enter for mass is silly.

I certainly don’t think that way or do that for other denominations. I come from a Pentecostal background. I’ve never heard a sermon from a pentecostal pulpit about how evil gays are. I have however heard many Pentecostals say very nasty things about gays when they think no gays are listening. When I say “many” I mean basically all who I’ve had reason to have more than a superficial relationship with. It has very much given me the impression that gays are not welcome within their churches. In fact it was one of the very things that caused me to leave the Pentecostal denomination in my early twenties. Despite the fact that I choose to be celibate I still felt unwelcome because of what was said. Interestingly these same people will today tell me how they never have, or do, say anything nasty about gays despite the fact I’ve heard them with my own ears.

It has never ever occurred to me to discount what I hear Pentecostals saying simply because there is no one at the door when I enter asking me if I’m straight or gay and then allowing/disallowing entrance because of my answer. Instead I do all I can to avoid attending a Pentecostal service. Granted these days it has as much to do with how anti-Catholic they tend to be as it is to do with how unwelcoming they are to gays.

Note: When I refer to nasty things been said about gays, I am not referring to saying that homosexual behaviour is sinful. I am referring to things like “they’re disgusting”, “they shouldn’t be allowed near their children”, “They’re all going to hell” (Just for been attracted), referring to people with homosexual slurs etc.
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I think it is “disgusting” to reduce a human being to a sexual orientation. In fact I find that offensive.

Your move…
 
Don_Ruggero said:
No. As a priest, I disagree with this suggestion.

Bishop McElroy, as the Bishop of San Diego, is the bishop of the diocese in which the Catholic Answers Forum is physically located…
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This may be incorrect. Please provide information that says the servers for this forum are located in San Diego. Additionally are you certain that Catholic Answers is not an adherent to a personal prelature?
 
CatholicSheila said:
It doesn’t matter how welcome you are when we’re in the church building if outside the building you (plural) talk about how disgusting gays are, how they should be kept separate from children, how they’re destroying society etc. We are members of the Church when we are outside the physical walls of our parishes just as much as when we are at mass. As such our behaviour towards people when we are not at church impacts their impression of how welcoming the church is. A lot of conservative Catholics do say very nasty things about gays. …

I am referring to things like “they’re disgusting”, “they shouldn’t be allowed near their children”, “They’re all going to hell” (Just for been attracted), referring to people with homosexual slurs etc.
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To me, at least, this is just it. I personally have never said ‘gays are disgusting’ or shouldn’t be allowed near our children or are going to hell. I’ve never actually heard a single person I know say such a thing. EVERY SINGLE THING I hear regarding this issue refers to the action and behavior, and not to the person.

I suspect it’s like the much-trumped-up Red Cup Affair: I saw a thousand posts about how people were supposedly angry over the ‘red cups’ at Christmas time, but I never saw one single post from any individual claiming to be angry over red cups. I believe it was an entirely fabricated story, claiming people were angry when in fact no one even noticed the color of the silly cups, or if they did, figured it was red for Christmas and were not angry at all.

I think this is the same: a lot of media and organizations claiming people are routinely saying such things when in fact it’s rarely happening at all.
 
Another thing I’d like to see an apology for, btw: those pushing the left wing agenda, gay or straight, who have FALSELY accused our holy priests. Yes, some of these people have later acknowledged that they willfully, deliberately, falsely accused priests of homosexual pedophelia, when it never happened.

“I think what you’re doing is not a great idea and might hurt you,” vs. character assassination, destruction of a man’s name and career, and tens, even hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal bills and eventually hundreds of thousands of dollars of destruction to a faith that is trying to help people and run charities, and in fact direct harm to those who will no longer be helped because the money went to someone who lied for profit and with intent to harm–you know, I think one of these is way more problematic…and evil…than the other.

Yes, some apologies and changes in life are definitely in order. But it’s not from Catholics who have believed the magisterium.
 
holyrood said:
Another thing I’d like to see an apology for, btw: those pushing the left wing agenda, gay or straight, who have FALSELY accused our holy priests. Yes, some of these people have later acknowledged that they willfully, deliberately, falsely accused priests of homosexual pedophelia, when it never happened.

“I think what you’re doing is not a great idea and might hurt you,” vs. character assassination, destruction of a man’s name and career, and tens, even hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal bills and eventually hundreds of thousands of dollars of destruction to a faith that is trying to help people and run charities, and in fact direct harm to those who will no longer be helped because the money went to someone who lied for profit and with intent to harm–you know, I think one of these is way more problematic…and evil…than the other.

Yes, some apologies and changes in life are definitely in order. But it’s not from Catholics who have believed the magisterium.
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I completely agree with your views but Canon 212 is about avoiding splintering and there are probably forces outside and within the Church who want this situation.

Look at Poland the other week. They showed reverence and were joyful in their welcome but accepting guidance that would endanger them and their citizens?
Give a huge smile and pretend you didn’t hear it 👍

That frustrates and leaves them where they don’t know how to react 😃

Stay faithful and ignore the noise but focus on Christ and sacred scriptures and tradition but…saving whales? Meh…
 
holyrood said:
To me, at least, this is just it. I personally have never said ‘gays are disgusting’ or shouldn’t be allowed near our children or are going to hell. I’ve never actually heard a single person I know say such a thing. EVERY SINGLE THING I hear regarding this issue refers to the action and behavior, and not to the person.

I suspect it’s like the much-trumped-up Red Cup Affair: I saw a thousand posts about how people were supposedly angry over the ‘red cups’ at Christmas time, but I never saw one single post from any individual claiming to be angry over red cups. I believe it was an entirely fabricated story, claiming people were angry when in fact no one even noticed the color of the silly cups, or if they did, figured it was red for Christmas and were not angry at all.

I think this is the same: a lot of media and organizations claiming people are routinely saying such things when in fact it’s rarely happening at all.
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I’m gay. I have heard it said. I’ve also heard the people saying it claim “I’ve never said that”. I have heard it at work, I’ve heard it at home and I’ve heard it amongst friends. From both religious and non-religious people. Sometimes it is down right cruel, other times it is just a throwaway comment or making fun of someone because they’re gay. It’s not made up though.

I’m not suggesting people are constantly making these comments. 1 comment from 100 people hurts more than 100 comments from 1 person. That’s what happens. Lots of people making a comment here and there. Not enough for the commenter to register that they’re the sort of person who routinely does it but enough to add up to the hearer.
 
Prodigal_40s said:
I think it is “disgusting” to reduce a human being to a sexual orientation. In fact I find that offensive.

Your move…
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You obviously think you’ve played a trump card. You’ll have to explain it ‘cause I don’ t get your point.
  1. I did not reduce anyone solely to their orientation. I’ve never actually seen anyone within the LGBT community do this either although I have seen them accused of this. Sometimes it is the only part of who someone is that is discussed because it is the only part relevant to the conversation. Just as when I’m discussing religion I tend to talk about the fact that I’m catholic and I leave out of the discussion the fact that I’m female, Australian and gay unless they somehow become relevant.
  2. Been offended because you don’t like something that isn’t personally about you and been deeply hurt because someone has said very hurtful things about you aren’t the same thing. My post was about the latter.
 
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