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gilliam
Guest
SF use to be a conservative city…
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aimee
Guest
When was that
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Isidore_AK
Guest
Arba Sicula:
By banning firearms in certain areas you create unarmed victim zones. Places where the criminals know that they can commit their crimes at low-to-no risk to themselves. Up here in Anchorage Alaska (where we allow open & concealed carry w/o a permit) one of the more dangerous places to be is on the college campus- There are many rapes and attacks there each year- a very large spike compared to the surrounding neighborhoods (which aren’t that great to begin with). Since firearms, knives, mace, and any other defensive weapons are banned at the college, criminals know they only have to evade the campus police (which are only good for ‘investigating’ campus crimes after they’ve happened),
You do realize that those ‘punks’, if they are criminals, probably already have guns, and don’t give a hoot whether or not its legal to carry them? Criminals ignore gun laws- thats why they’re criminals. If you ban posession, carry, and use of firearms you just keep the law-abiding citizens from using them to protect themselves.
By banning firearms in certain areas you create unarmed victim zones. Places where the criminals know that they can commit their crimes at low-to-no risk to themselves. Up here in Anchorage Alaska (where we allow open & concealed carry w/o a permit) one of the more dangerous places to be is on the college campus- There are many rapes and attacks there each year- a very large spike compared to the surrounding neighborhoods (which aren’t that great to begin with). Since firearms, knives, mace, and any other defensive weapons are banned at the college, criminals know they only have to evade the campus police (which are only good for ‘investigating’ campus crimes after they’ve happened),
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MikeWM
Guest
The problem is ‘putting the genie back in the bottle.’ When guns have already been widespread, I tend to believe you are right. Merely banning them is too blunt a strategy.
In my opinion the answer is not to allow widespread gun ownership in the first place, as here in the UK - but I guess it is rather late for that now in the US.
Mike
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Isidore_AK
Guest
Which doesn’t stop criminals from using guns in the UK either.
It has been documented (by various studies, in varous countries) that crime tends to go up when you disarm the public.
Case in Point- The UK. Here is a BBC article on the subject…
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm
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MikeWM
Guest
No, but gun ownership and gun crime has never been anywhere near as wide as in the US.
Well, yes. That was kinda my point about ‘putting the genie back into the bottle.’ There was an increase in the UK, but not terrible (40% is siginificant of course, but about what I’d expect). I imagine it would be rather greater than 40% in the US.
Mike
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Isidore_AK
Guest
I think it’d be waaaaaaaay higher here…I don’t think that many of us would be willing to give up our arms without a fight. I know I certainly won’t. I pity the man who tries to take my guns.
Molon Labe my friend, Molon Labe.
I guess my point, is that us law-abiding gun owners would be made into criminals when the Gov’t tries to take our firearms away…thus spiking the crime statistics.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Which leaves you with a conundrum – if you have little or no crime, what does it matter if honest citizens own and carry guns?
But if you have a lot of crime, then honest citizens need to own and carry guns.
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MikeWM
Guest
vern humphrey:
Would you support the right of a citizen to own any weapon they chose? A machine gun? Grenades? Flame-throwers? Land mines? What does it matter if they are ‘honest citizens’, under your argument?
Mike
For starters, people can go nuts. It is far better if people go nuts without guns to hand than the opposite.
Would you support the right of a citizen to own any weapon they chose? A machine gun? Grenades? Flame-throwers? Land mines? What does it matter if they are ‘honest citizens’, under your argument?
Mike
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vern_humphrey
Guest
But they don’t – when you have shootings by people who “go nuts” they are almost always by people who couldn’t own a gun anyway. The Columbine shooters are a case in point
And when someone does “go nuts” with a gun, wouldn’t you like to have the capability of defending yourself?
“All the terrible implements of the soldier” – Tenche Cox, Debates.
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MikeWM
Guest
vern humphrey:
Thomas Hamilton in Dunblane.
I remember all too well our last extended conversation about gun control Vern. I don’t think a repeat performance will prove especially useful for either of us, agreed?
Mike
The Columbine shooters used straw purchases to get their guns. If no-one could buy a gun, they couldn’t have got them that way. I’m not saying they wouldn’t have got guns some other way, but this way was no doubt easier.
Thomas Hamilton in Dunblane.
What, in school? (Columbine again).
I remember all too well our last extended conversation about gun control Vern. I don’t think a repeat performance will prove especially useful for either of us, agreed?
Mike
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wabrams
Guest
Mike, your wrong. In fact, your wrong on every debate we have about guns and gun control. You ignore the facts that states with conceal and carry laws have very noticable drops in crime. You ignore the facts that criminals in this country will always have access to firearms, even if you ban law abiding citizens from being able to purchase or own a firearm. If you fon’t like guns, fine. But don’t distort the issues and twist things around to make it fit how you feel.
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MikeWM
Guest
You are free to believe that, but you seem to have missed part of what I’m saying.
See what I said in #63
That isn’t ignoring the fact that when guns are widespread, stopping people carrying them isn’t a particularly good first step, indeed it is the opposite.
Please point out one thing I have said that is a distortion.
Mike
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Isidore_AK
Guest
I would support military weapons in civilian hands. And just so you know- it can already be done. All you need is the proper license and you can own most military weapons here in the US (unless your state has laws against it).
Grenade Launchers? Check! Machine guns? Check! Flame-Throwers? Check! And frankly, the license isn’t hard to get. In fact, if you look around the web, you’ll probably find a machine-gun club. We have 'em up here in Alaska, and I know of quite a few in Arizona, Texas, Wyoming, & Montana. The only thing keeping honost law abiding citizens from owning military weapons is the expense (and that is artificially created), and the mess of paperwork involved…
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MikeWM
Guest
Incredible. And horrifying
Mike
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wabrams
Guest
And that is???
Irrelavent to what I said.
And you know this how?
Don’t have time to write a book.
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MikeWM
Guest
I don’t know it, but as I’m agreeing to your point (but not necessarily for the same reasons as you) I fail to see why you want to argue with me
No need to be rude, and no need for a book. One supposed ‘distortion’ will do for now.
Mike
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manualman
Guest
Frankly, this is typical California behavior.
Oppose construction of new nuclear, coal or hydro electric plants. Scream bloody murder when the rolling blackout start.
Oppose construction of new sanitary landfills when the per capita use of disposable products is among the highest in the world.
Require the cleanest auto emissions in the USA. Whine and complain about how your botique formula gas costs more than gas anywhere else in the country.
Ban military recruiting. Soon: Complain about Federal government slow response to disasters and lack of military assistance. You watch and see.
It’s just par for the course out there.
P.S. Lot got the heck out of Sodom! (And he didn’t even get rich on real estate in the process!)
Oppose construction of new nuclear, coal or hydro electric plants. Scream bloody murder when the rolling blackout start.
Oppose construction of new sanitary landfills when the per capita use of disposable products is among the highest in the world.
Require the cleanest auto emissions in the USA. Whine and complain about how your botique formula gas costs more than gas anywhere else in the country.
Ban military recruiting. Soon: Complain about Federal government slow response to disasters and lack of military assistance. You watch and see.
It’s just par for the course out there.
P.S. Lot got the heck out of Sodom! (And he didn’t even get rich on real estate in the process!)
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wabrams
Guest
Sorry if I came across as rude.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
And if pigs could fly, we wouldn’t have to haul them to market in trucks.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
The fact is, even with the most strict controls, there are guns in the hands of criminals – and other deadly weapons, as well.
In Pearl, Mississippi, there was a similar incident. And the law forbade guns in school or on school property.
The principal had a gun. By law he coudln’t bring in onto or near school property – he locked it in his car, almost a quarter of a mile away. When the shooting started, he ran to the car, got the gun, ran back, and confronted the shooter who surrendered to him.
If he had been allowed to carry the gun in the school, there would have been fewer deaths.
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