San Francisco may vote to ban circumcision

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There is a world of difference between such minor (cosmetic) body modification and FGM (female genital mutilation). FGM often results in chronic pain, serious health issues, and even death. Moreover, its stated purpose is usually to keep girls ‘chaste and pure’ by making them unable to enjoy any kind of sex (something its all too effective at).
Yeah, and there is a world of difference between body piercing and decapitation. What does that have to do with the proposed bill? It has already been pointed out to you that this is aimed at male circumcision. Why the obsession with FGM in this thread?

I would be willing to bet that many more people experience complications resulting from the minor body modifications as you put it than do infant boys who are circumcised.

Peace

Tim
 
Yeah, and there is a world of difference between body piercing and decapitation. What does that have to do with the proposed bill?

Tim
Very little, I was responding to a poster who appeared to be comparing cosmetic operations like breast enhancement surgery and even ear piercing to FGM.

But Jewish circumcision isn’t even in the same league. The law in question seems a lot more stupid now that I know it only deals with male circumcision.
 
:confused:

Why would you think the person behind this proposal is gay?
google is your friend.😃 The guy behind this proposal is idenitifed as a “gay activist” all over the internet. I won’t post the links since they contain a lot of truly gross pictures. He said in an interview that he “lives with his partner”. Now he could be a straight gay activist living with a female partner but I don’t thinks it’s a big leap to say he is more likely “gay” than not.
Is the Massachusetts state senator who sponsored a bill similar to the ballot initiative proposal also gay?
The senator did not sponsor the bill, he only filed it because it was requested by a constituent. In MA, if a constituent requests it, the representative must file it. The bill has no (that’s zero) actual sponsors, not even the senator who filed it.

Now, back to the topic at hand. This bill is junk law. On the one hand there’s the lack of religious exception. The only real exception is “clear, compelling and immediate need”. The use of “and” would seem to mean that all three conditions must be met.

Under that law, my own son, born with hypospadiasis, would not have been able to have his surgery. The need for surgery was clear and compelling but not immediate. The condition is not life threatening and I am sure we all could have adjusted to his peeing sideways until he turned 18. :mad:
 
google is your friend.😃 The guy behind this proposal is idenitifed as a “gay activist” all over the internet. I won’t post the links since they contain a lot of truly gross pictures. He said in an interview that he “lives with his partner”. Now he could be a straight gay activist living with a female partner but I don’t thinks it’s a big leap to say he is more likely “gay” than not.
It’s a lot more than just him, on this story about Schofield sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/cityinsider/detail?entry_id=77266 it says;

“Schofield became interested in the topic after seeing the Bay Area Intactivists marching in the Gay Pride Parade a few years back and has since become an “intactivist” himself.”

And when you Google Bay Area Intactivists you get . . . Yikes! I don’t want to link to any of the pictures of them marching in the parade, maybe I’d get in trouble with the mod, suffice to say, these guys in their thongs and other raunchy outfits aren’t at the Gay Pride Parade as straights offering moral support.

So back to my original question, between the guys in P-town who want to give condoms to elementary school kids and these guys in San Francisco, why can’t they let the “breeders” decide how to raise their own kids?
 
So back to my original question, between the guys in P-town who want to give condoms to elementary school kids and these guys in San Francisco, why can’t they let the “breeders” decide how to raise their own kids?
I am not defending the proposed ballot initiative, because I think it is misguided, however according to [Mr. Schofield’s application ](http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/Initiative 10-06 male circumcision-2.pdf) circumcision can be physically and psychologically damaging. I assume those who back this proposal.(the number of which I also suspect is rather small) want to protect infants and the health of the men they will grow into.
 
I am not defending the proposed ballot initiative, because I think it is misguided, however according to [Mr. Schofield’s application ](http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/Initiative 10-06 male circumcision-2.pdf) circumcision can be physically and psychologically damaging. I assume those who back this proposal.(the number of which I also suspect is rather small) want to protect infants and the health of the men they will grow into.
Color me skeptical. If you have some time head over to YouTube and search “Bay Area Intactivists”. These people need to mind their own business, their whole shtick is creepy
 
This initiative would never be able to pass First Amendement challenge anyway, but what a shame that such an anti-semetic initiative would be introduced. I guess tolerance is only extended to some in SF.
 
Is anyone else amused that * San Francisco*, of all places, is interested in this?
Writing from the belly of the beast (Financial District in SF), nothing would surprise me, but frankly, I would have expected that to come out of Berkeley.

Could you imagine a mohel being arrested, caught in the act.

This reminds me of the SNL skit where a mohel is able to perform a perfect circumcision in a car driving over potholes because of the superior suspension of the Lincoln Continental. Maybe they would just drive to Daly City.
 
This initiative would never be able to pass First Amendement challenge anyway, but what a shame that such an anti-semetic initiative would be introduced. I guess tolerance is only extended to some in SF.
I don’t think it is really anti-semitic, and if it is, you need to include Muslims among the Semites, since they also circumcise.

There have been radical anti-circumcision types for a long time. For them it is about health and perhaps secularism.
 
Very little, I was responding to a poster who appeared to be comparing cosmetic operations like breast enhancement surgery and even ear piercing to FGM.

But Jewish circumcision isn’t even in the same league. The law in question seems a lot more stupid now that I know it only deals with male circumcision.
Where did I mention FGM? I mentioned breast enhancement, lip implants, ear piercing, and tattoos. You have me mistaken with another poster, I think.

I still don’t see what the “world of difference” is. Is there a high-danger rate for circumsision (from my reading, it poses few risks) that I am unaware of? I looked into the details recently due to the birth of my first child, who ended being a girl anyway 🙂

And using the “it isn’t necessary for children” reason applies to everything I just listed above.
 
Wouldn’t this discriminate against Jews, and possibly Muslims, whose religeons require them to circumcize their male infants, at least in the case of Jews, at 8 days?
 
I think there will immediately be objection from Jewish and other religious groups. They won’t take kindly to people telling them to stop their traditions.
 
This thread has been dead for some time, but since you brought it up, freedom of religion has limits in a secular and free society, not just religions we don’t like, but all religions. I think a fine limit can be placed at the point at which your religious beliefs entail the amputation of healthy, non-renewable, normal, functional errogenous body parts from the sexual organs of a defenseless infant. If you want to comment, this subject has been addressed in exhaustive detail, with much of what I said on it in the threads below remaining unaddressed and unrefuted. If you want to slog through these to bring you up to speed on the debate and then add something new of substance, by all means do so. If not, perhaps best to leave it as is.

It is a sad enduring feature of human nature that once a practice so visceral, personal, and intimate as forced genital cutting becomes ingrained in a culture, even when all thinly cooked up medical wrappings for it have fallen away, people will continue to fiercely defend their right to wound their own children on “cultural” grounds, which really just means “because I really, really want to”.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=541265
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=525829&page=4

The discussions on this always tend to become pedantic and polarizing, but it really comes down to two simple questions: whose best interests are really being considered here, the baby’s, or his parents? Studies show strong evidence that this unnecessary amputative surgery interferes with emotional bonding, negatively affects breast-feeding, and causes strong evidence of severe psychological stress in the baby. The best interests of the child are to remain with his mother, not to be strapped to a restraining board to have his genitals crushed and sliced. The second question is: who has the right to elect for cosmetic amputative surgical body modifications? The clear answer in all other cases in medicine except this single, glaring instance, is only the owner of the body themselves.

Please read the above threads for full update on what has been said already, but quite simply, as the surgical amputation carried out in hospitals today under the euphemism of “circumcision” is non-therapeutic and has not a single conclusive benefit, it is deeply unethical for doctors to perform on a non-consenting infant, and is an unjustifiable harm. No one has the right to forcibly amputate normal, healthy, functional, non-renewable body parts from another human being without their full and informed consent. Proxy consent from the parents of the child is utterly invalid, and has been found so by courts in lawsuits filed against doctors for having done it anyway, and yet the practice continues. For more on the medical ethics of this, I invite readers to www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org. Basically, every time a doctor does this they violate their oaths as a physician, and they invite a lawsuit for sexual assault, medical malpractice, and medical fraud by the child themselves when they turn 18.
 
And as an interesting personal anecdote on this: my wife and I were just this week at the pediatrician’s office for our daughter’s 2 year check-up, and I mentioned that we were hoping to have a boy next, but that I had been very concerned about this practice. The doctor said basically that it isn’t recommended really, and that people used to think that it reduced infections and things, but that boys are so unlikely to get infections when compared to girls that it’s not necessary at all to do it, and that they used to push for it years ago, but That its “our choice” totally. So I looked at her and said “I know these things, but my question then is: Why do any doctors still agree to do it with no medical reason? That is really unethical”. She then, I kid you not, had a literal flash of panic cross her eyes for a moment, stammered a few incomplete sentences about it not being necessary, and how it’s true that no one else outside the U.S. does it really, and nearly tripped over her own feet running from the room.

That is one of the weirdest things about this: many doctors know they shouldn’t be doing it when really put on the spot, but will ask parents if they want it anyway, and when asked why they continue to agree to do it, they usually state “well, because the parents wanted it”! As though they are some kind of automatons, with no free will or choice in the matter. But those same doctors frequently do NOT have their own sons cut, and will often sigh in relief or congratulate parents who decline the surgery, but only AFTER the parents have made their intentions clear.

Deep psychological issues of denial over having hurt previous babies who were their patients needlessly, defense mechanisms fueling a drive to cut to “prove” their own circumcisions were a good thing for the male doctors involved, the simple driving greed of making, for them, easy extra money on the surgeries (up to $20,000 a year extra income is quite doable), and great fear of legal liability and professional repercussions should the full truth become more widely known and enough men get really, really angry over this…all these factors appear to be in play, as well as a serious helping of culturally ingrained forced silence on the issue. After all, we don’t talk about such PRIVATE things in public, above all else, this is something not to be brought up, now is it?😉
 
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