San Francisco / NRA : The Latest

[Bon_Croix]

Who has time for jacking around with Freemasons? Most of us would rather be drinking a couple beers and eating fried pork bellies. And that’s the point.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

LeafByNiggle:

You made a general statement, did you not?

The OP is about the San Francisco board of Supervisors slandering of 5 million law abiding Americans, and their attempt to impede their free speech rights. Your attempt to deflect from this and your ludicrous characterization of the NRA’s attempts to legally protect the rights of Americans is weak at best.

Apparently you recognize that the bill of rights has no force outside of the United States, and in fact will have no force within this land if it ceases to be the United States. In other words, these rights are protected only so long as the government exists. So it is funny to say that the power is outside of government.

It is truly sad that citizens of other countries, including to some extent, Canada, do not have the kind of protection of their inherent rights that our constitution provides, and are subject to government oppression of their rights as a result. I’m sure the SF supervisors would prefer the latter to our system.

OK, then we can dispense with your ludicrous statement that the bill of rights has power outside of the government.

And, of course, that’s not what I said. I said, “but the bill was of rights places rights outside of government power regardless…”.
Rights should be outside government power. As we can see by the attempts of the SF Supervisors, it is critical to limit government power and defend individual rights.
You might not agree.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, the “Deep State” is a conspiracy theory, not too different from any number of other conspiracy theories.

Please. If you’re going to talk about conspiracy theories, start a thread about Russia collusion or Ukraine quid pro quo.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

And, of course, that’s not what I said. I said, “but the bill was of rights places rights outside of government power regardless…”.
Rights should be outside government power.

I guess I don’t know what it means for a document to “place” rights anywhere. Legal documents establish powers, but they do not establish rights. Anything the bill of rights says gets its power from the government it created. The bill of rights has no power of its own. If it tries to make claims outside of its jurisdiction, those claims are of no consequence. (Imagine, for example, if the bill of rights said something about what people in Canada are obligated to do.) The only thing of consequence in the bill of rights is the legal obligations supported by the government.

As we can see by the attempts of the SF Supervisors, it is critical to limit government power and defend individual rights.

The limitation of that governmental power is accomplished by another governmental power - the courts. So you are still dealing with government power - just a different form of it.

 

[JonNC]

I guess I don’t know what it means for a document to “place” rights anywhere. Legal documents establish powers, but they do not establish rights.

Exactly. The Bill of Rights limits powers. By protecting rights from government infringement, it keeps Americans from the fascistic antics like we’ve seen from the SF supervisors.

Anything the bill of rights says gets its power from the government it created.

But the rights protected therein do not. That’s why the Bill of Rights that limits government power is so important.

The limitation of that governmental power is accomplished by another governmental power - the courts. So you are still dealing with government power - just a different form of it.

I understand the affection progressives have for strong government power, but this is precisely why the second exists.

 

[Bon_Croix]

We know that.

 

[Bon_Croix]

Well said.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Anything the bill of rights says gets its power from the government it created.

But the rights protected therein do not.

If the rights protected therein do not get their power from government, where do they get their power?

 

[Bon_Croix]

Do you want to discuss Freud next?

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

LeafByNiggle:

Anything the bill of rights says gets its power from the government it created.

But the rights protected therein do not.

If the rights protected therein do not get their power from government, where do they get their power?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it,…