N
Nominefili
Guest
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
I really wish WELS was still in communion with the LCMS. 
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I really wish WELS was still in communion with the LCMS.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
So do I. I am actually WELS by circumstance and only partly on conviction. I agree with the WELS on the role of women. Prayer fellowship…well, I would only extend that to public prayers with other churches, not to individuals. I don’t agree with the WELS on the role of the public ministry in any way, shape, or form. I was born and raised LCMS. I joined a WELS congregation only because the LCMS churches in the town I am in are barely confessional and thoroughly Ablaze! Gag.Couldn’t have said it better myself.
N
Nominefili
Guest
I don’t blame you. Gag indeed
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
I am hoping that if Matt Harrison is elected (and it looks like he will be, given his nomination numbers) he puts the nail into the Ablaze! coffin straightaway.I don’t blame you. Gag indeed
N
Nominefili
Guest
The latest numbers put Harrison ahead by almost twice the nominations of the incumbent Kieschnick. As much respect as I have for our President, I do believe that the church needs to move in another direction.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Yes, most definitely. Under his leadership, he’s wasted a ton of money on Ablaze!, and the Synod has decreased in membership (the church growth strategy - lose the saved, to reach the lost).
Z
Zooey
Guest
United Methodist here.
**
Of Sanctification
Sanctification is that renewal of our fallen nature by the Holy Ghost, received through faith in Jesus Christ, whose blood of atonement cleanseth from all sin; whereby we are not only delivered from the guilt of sin, but are washed from its pollution, saved from its power, and are enabled, through grace, to love God with all our hearts and to walk in his holy commandments blameless.
[The following provision was adopted by the Uniting Conference (1939). This statement seeks to interpret to our churches in foreign lands Article XXIII of the Articles of Religion. It is a legislative enactment but is not a part of the Constitution. (See Judicial Council Decisions 41, 176, and Decision 6, Interim Judicial Council.)]
From:
http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1653
**
Article XI—Sanctification and Christian Perfection
We believe sanctification is the work of God’s grace through the Word and the Spirit, by which those who have been born again are cleansed from sin in their thoughts, words and acts, and are enabled to live in accordance with God’s will, and to strive for holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Entire sanctification is a state of perfect love, righteousness and true holiness which every regenerate believer may obtain by being delivered from the power of sin, by loving God with all the heart, soul, mind and strength, and by loving one’s neighbor as one’s self. Through faith in Jesus Christ this gracious gift may be received in this life both gradually and instantaneously, and should be sought earnestly by every child of God.
We believe this experience does not deliver us from the infirmities, ignorance, and mistakes common to man, nor from the possibilities of further sin. The Christian must continue on guard against spiritual pride and seek to gain victory over every temptation to sin. He must respond wholly to the will of God so that sin will lose its power over him; and the world, the flesh, and the devil are put under his feet. Thus he rules over these enemies with watchfulness through the power of the Holy Spirit.
From:
http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1656
**
Of Sanctification
Sanctification is that renewal of our fallen nature by the Holy Ghost, received through faith in Jesus Christ, whose blood of atonement cleanseth from all sin; whereby we are not only delivered from the guilt of sin, but are washed from its pollution, saved from its power, and are enabled, through grace, to love God with all our hearts and to walk in his holy commandments blameless.
[The following provision was adopted by the Uniting Conference (1939). This statement seeks to interpret to our churches in foreign lands Article XXIII of the Articles of Religion. It is a legislative enactment but is not a part of the Constitution. (See Judicial Council Decisions 41, 176, and Decision 6, Interim Judicial Council.)]
From:
http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1653
**
Article XI—Sanctification and Christian Perfection
We believe sanctification is the work of God’s grace through the Word and the Spirit, by which those who have been born again are cleansed from sin in their thoughts, words and acts, and are enabled to live in accordance with God’s will, and to strive for holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Entire sanctification is a state of perfect love, righteousness and true holiness which every regenerate believer may obtain by being delivered from the power of sin, by loving God with all the heart, soul, mind and strength, and by loving one’s neighbor as one’s self. Through faith in Jesus Christ this gracious gift may be received in this life both gradually and instantaneously, and should be sought earnestly by every child of God.
We believe this experience does not deliver us from the infirmities, ignorance, and mistakes common to man, nor from the possibilities of further sin. The Christian must continue on guard against spiritual pride and seek to gain victory over every temptation to sin. He must respond wholly to the will of God so that sin will lose its power over him; and the world, the flesh, and the devil are put under his feet. Thus he rules over these enemies with watchfulness through the power of the Holy Spirit.
From:
http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=1&mid=1656
T
Third_Day
Guest
Those passages are so clear to me that I can’t comprehend how anyone can read them any other way. Jesus was speaking to the apostles. Later He promises to be with them, that is the Church,till the end of the world. He tells them, the Church, to baptise and teach all nations. That did not happen in the lifetime of the apostles. His command was only fulfilled over the centuries as the Catholic Church spread throughout the world.
In context Paul is telling the Jewish Christians that we are justified apart from works of the Mosaic law. Paul is not saying to those listening that we are justified by faith apart from keeping the commandments of God. In 1 Cor.7:19 Paul emphasizes this “For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, what counts is keeping the commandments”.
In Romans 2:13 Paul says it is the “doers of the law that will be justified” What law is Paul talking about? The commandments of God as he tells them in verse 21 when he mentions stealing and adultery.
Paul agrees with James. We are justified by works not by faith alone. That is Catholic teaching, Faith and works. Not faith alone or works alone but faith and works.
Catholics would agree that we are justified by faith, but not faith alone.
I don’t see how you can say that. In 1 Cor.3:13 Paul says this testing will occur on “the Day” which is a clear reference to our judgment. after death. How do you interpret “the Day” and how do you interpret “the man will suffer loss, though he himseld will be saved , but only as through fire”.
What does that have to do with the work of ministers in the church?
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
I don’t disagree with what you say above. It is reading those passages to interpret that the Church is incapable of erring that I disagree with.
Yes, and that’s absolutely true, vis a vie the commandments. If someone can keep the commandments perfectly, then they have obeyed the Law and will not come under judgment. No one can do this, however, because we are sinners. If we could keep God’s commandments, then we have no need of a Savior. Paul is talking about far more than the Mosaic Law in the opening chapters of Romans. He brings the entire world under the condemnation of the Law. Paul says, “Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.” Paul is not talking about ritual law, since it only applied to the Israelites. The Mosaic Law does not condemn the entire world. The Gentiles were never under kosher or ceremonial laws. The moral law that is contained within the Mosaic Law, however, does.
“For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.’” If Paul was talking about the Mosaic law when he uses the word works, why would he include Abraham since Abraham was never under the Mosaic law? He was under the commandments, however.
The doers of the law will be justified. No one is a doer of the law.
Read the previous verses for the context of ministers in the Church. Paul is discussing the problems that exist in the Corinthian congregation. He refers to them as “men of flesh” and “infants in Christ.” He refers to the strife and jealousy that exists among them. He zeroes in on their partisanship: the fact that they are saying “I am of this Christian leader or that one.” He reminds them that leaders are but servants of the Lord, and that it was the Lord that even gave those servants the opportunity to preach the gospel to them. He writes in verse 6, “I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.” God used Paul and Apollos as means, but the growth was caused by God, not by the Christian leaders themselves. At this point then Paul begins to speak of the role Christian leaders have in the work of the Church.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.
Verse 8 provides the first reference to “reward,” and it is clearly in the context of the Christian leaders who labor in the work of ministry. It will be significant to note that the phrase “receive a reward” in verse 8 is identical in terminology to the same phrase in verse 14. Since in this context we know that the planting and watering mentioned goes back to Paul and Apollos, the topic remains consistent throughout this passage. Paul then speaks of himself and Apollos as “God’s fellow workers,” and they labor in this high calling in God’s field. He uses two terms, field and building, but picks up only on the second, “God’s building.” A fellow worker of God works in building God’s building, and that building is the church. I agree with you that the Day refers to the judgment. It refers to the Day of the Lord, which is the day of Christ’s return, when the secrets of mens hearts will be revealed to everyone.
T
Third_Day
Guest
If the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth as Jesus promised then the Church is infallible. I believe the Catholic Church under the authority of the successor of Peter is that one infallible Church.
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Not all can obey the commandments perfectly. That is why we were given the sacraments as means of grace, especially the sacrament of confession.
. I keep the commandments, don’t you? It is because of the Savior that I have the grace to keep the commandments.
Paul is continuing with his teaching on how the Jew and Gentile is justified. Is it by works of the law as the Jews believed or by grace as Paul was teaching? No human being can be justified through works, it is through grace. Paul makes this point in the very next verse.
Romans 3:21-26" But now the righteousness of God has bee manifested apart from the law … the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is** no distinction since all have sinned ad fall short of the glory of God, they **are justified by his **grace **as a gift,…, to be received by faith"
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That’s Paul’s point. Abraham was not a Jew, yet he was justified by faith and not by circumcision or any other observance of the Mosaic law. Romans 4:10 “How was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.”
Verse 16 "This is why it depends on faith in order that the promise may rest on grace"
The Jewish Christians could not understand how the Mosiac law was no longer necessary after all of these centuries. Why should they believe Paul that they can now be justified by grace through faith? The Council of Jerusalem had to be called because this problem with the Judaizers was so serious.
T
Third_Day
Guest
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The “observers” of the law will be justified. Observers (doers) of the moral law
Agree
Lets not forget what Paul said in Romans 2:6-11
" God will give to each person according to what he has done. To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life.But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honour and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God shows no partiality"
This fits with Paul’s “gold,silver, precious stones, wood, hay stubble” that will be tested by fire. We will all have our own personal day of judgment immediately after death and again at the end of the world when mens secrets will be revealed so I don’t see this as only at the end of the world.
You failed to address the major text . "if any mans work is burned up, he will suffer loss,though he himself will be saved, but only thorough fire".
I don’t see how that fits with “when the secrets of men will be revealed”
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
I understand that. We have to agree to disagree there. My point wasn’t to debate the claims of the Roman Catholic Church about infallibility. Only that you, as an individual, just like everyone else, have to come to a decision of agreement with that position.
No one can obey the commandments to the degree the commandments require, which is perfection. I keep the commandments outwardly, for the most part, that doesn’t mean I’ve kept them. They require perfect obedience to truly count as keeping them.
Correct, which is why it is impossible to merit grace. Which is why Paul says that it is not by works, but by faith, because works are opposed to grace, whereas faith, given by God, is not. This is all sola fide means. That we receive the grace of justification through faith apart from anything else.
I don’t disagree with anything here, except that you are forcing a restriction to Paul’s use of the term works of the law as being only those things which were ritualistic or ceremonial. The Mosaic law encompasses everything from Exodus 19 until the end of Deuteronomy. Certainly Paul has in mind ceremonial laws. However, that is not all he has in mind.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
And no one does the moral law. Paul makes this clear one chapter later.
Sure, it does… because the fire will be applied not to them, but to their works. This is how their secrets will be revealed, because the fire will expose whether their works were gold, hay, stubble, etc. The passage says nothing about the purification of individuals. Works are tested in this passage. Rome teaches souls are purified from the temporal punishment of sins by suffering satispassio in purgatory: but there is nothing about temporal punishments, satispassio, or suffering of individuals for their sins, in this passage. All these are extraneous to the text itself.
The fire of which Paul speaks reveals. It does not purge. If this were the fire of Rome’s purgatory, it would not simply demonstrate that gold is, in fact, gold, or hay is truly hay. The sufferings of purgatory are supposed to sanctify and change a persons soul, enabling them to enter into the very presence of God. But the text speaks of a revelation of the quality of a man’s work, which is wholly incompatible with your use of the passage.
Also, because of the context, the passage is addressing Christian workers, not all of the faithful.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Circumcision is not part of the Mosaic law. It was implemented over 400 years before the Mosaic law. This is why Paul is not simply referencing the Mosaic law when he uses the phrases “works of the law.” It includes any commandment given by God, whether Mosaic or not. This also includes the Ten Commandments. How do we know this is so? Because Paul says so:
“What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, ‘You shall not covet.’ But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.” - Rom. 7:7-12
"You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.” - Ex. 20:17
Is this part of Mosaic ceremonial law, or the commandments of God?
“Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.” - Rom. 3:19-20
This is the exact same thing Paul said in Romans 7:7 ff. It is untenable to maintain that Paul, in Rom. 3, is meaning to say that the entire world will be held accountable to God for mixing fabrics. But it will be held accountable for coveting.
T
Third_Day
Guest
You can’t keep holy the Lord’s Day? You can’t honor your father and mother? You can’t keep from committing adultery? Where do you get the idea that we must be have perfect obedience?
. You misunderstand “merit”. When God gives us the grace to do good works and we do them he “rewards” us with more grace.
Works come from grace, they are not opposed.
The mistake you are making is not understanding that our initial justification comes from grace through faith. But once given the gift of faith we then must cooperate with God’s grace and do the works that God gives us the grace to do.
Look at Matt. 25:31-46. How will Jesus will judge us at the end of the world? By how much faith we had? No. Jesus doesn’t even mention faith. To those who did not cooperate with His grace they are condemned to hell. Did they have faith? Yes but some were saved because they cooperated with God’s grace and some were condemned because they did not cooperate with God’s grace and do the good works necessary. That is why James can say we are justified by works and not by faith alone.
You’re reading Paul in terms of Protestant vs Catholic instead of Jew vs Gentile. Paul is speaking about works of the Mosaic Law. The Jews thought they were justified simply because they had possession of the law and the Gentiles did not. That’s why Paul mentions Abraham who was justified without circumcision. He was justified apart from works of the Mosaic law. Abraham had faith and “obeyed” God and was justified. Obedience is a work. Abraham was not justified by faith alone. He was justified by faith and works given to him by grace.
T
Third_Day
Guest
Where do you get this idea that no one can keep the moral law?
. That’s not what the text says. It clearly says that **"he will suffer loss"and he **will be saved, but only through fire"
What does “fire” mean? Yes, individuals will suffer loss. They will suffer.as the text shows.
And the man will be rewarded if the works survive the fire. If they are burned up he will suffer loss.
THe works that are burned up are our sinful works. The man “suffers”. That is clear from the text.
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Some are “burned” up. Others “survive” and pass through.
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All the impurities of the wood, hay, stubble are burned up. The Gold , silver and precious stone aren’t impure so they survive.
You need to explain why the man “suffers loss”.
The Body of Christ has many members all with different gifts. Not all are pastors. I am responsible for teaching faith and morals to my children. My works will be tested on my day of judgment.
T
Third_Day
Guest
. Circumcision was connected to the Mosaic law. It was necessary to be circumcised to be a part of Israel. This is why Paul says “Now I Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law” Gal.5:1-4
I agree. But Paul tells the Jewish Christians that circumcision is not necessary. He never says that keeping the commandments is not necessary.
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God gave the Jews the law so that they would know what sin is, what is good and what is evil. The Law didn’t remove sin, it just made it known. It produced a sense of shame and guilt instead of innocence. As Paul says in the last line "So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good". Paul is speaking here of the moral law which is good and holy because it directs us toward God.
Commandments of God
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The entire world is accountable to God in keeping the moral law
Paul’s audience would have made the distinction between the ceremonial law and the moral law. Paul says to them “it is the **doers of the law **that will be justified” Paul does not contradict himself later when he says “we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law”. There he is speaking of the ceremonial laws.
What does the writer of Hebrews (perhaps Paul) tell the Jews? Heb. 7:12 " For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necesarily a change in the law as well" Was there a change in the priesthood with the coming of Christ? Yes. The levitical priesthood was replaced by Christ. New ceremonial laws such as Baptism were introduced and ceremonial laws like circumcision were no longer necessary
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
I keep them, at least outwardly, most of the time. I may not have ever cheated on my wife. That doesn’t mean I haven’t committed adultery. “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
I wouldn’t disagree with that. I just wouldn’t call it justification.
They are not opposed for the purpose of the Christian life. They are opposed for justification. Otherwise, the ungodly could not be justified.
I find nothing of initial justification in Scripture. One is either declared innocent or declared guilty.
Look at Matt. 25:31-46. How will Jesus will judge us at the end of the world? By how much faith we had? No. Jesus doesn’t even mention faith. To those who did not cooperate with His grace they are condemned to hell. Did they have faith? Yes but some were saved because they cooperated with God’s grace and some were condemned because they did not cooperate with God’s grace and do the good works necessary. That is why James can say we are justified by works and not by faith alone.
Paul is saying we are justified by faith apart from works of any kind. Your insertion of “works of the law” only referring to the Mosaic covenant regulations is eisegesis. Paul gives the context to works of the law and it is not restricted to works of the Mosaic covenant. Circumcision was an important part of the nation of Israel, but it was not part of the Mosaic covenant. It was part of the covenant made with Abraham. This fact alone means that Paul is talking about more than the Mosaic law. Again, Paul interprets himself by mentioning specific things, like coveting, that were part of the moral law of God and not limited to Mosaic rituals but to eternally relevant commandments.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
Romans 3.
And the loss that he will suffer is the reward for his works. He does not go through fire. His works do.
Paul says he suffers loss for the sake of Christ. That doesn’t mean the fires of purgation. It means he suffers loss in the world. In the same way, the one who builds his ministry on perishable things will suffer loss in the eternal. Since Paul says they will lose their rewards, the loss that is being suffered is those rewards.
It says nothing about sinful works per se. It says building the ministry through perishable foundations.
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The works are burned up, they are not burned up.
T
TriuneUnity
Guest
There is nothing in the text to indicate that Paul changes works of the law from verse 20 to verse 28. It would defeat his entire purpose for even saying that we cannot be justified by the works of the law (verse 20) to include the entire world, which clearly indicates he is referring to the commandments and then to switch to only Mosaic rituals in verse 28.
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