Sanders Thread

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gracepoole said:
Indeed. But understanding this requires knowledge of operational definitions that are apparently meaningless to many.
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Would you please take the time to enlighten us? Not being sarcastic. What, in your opinion, is Bernie Sanders?

He has admitted that he is a “socialist.” Now, the fact that he honeymooned in former USSR and took trips to communist Cuba and the fact that he attacks the evils of capitalism incessantly may not mean much.

Or the fact that this Pope had him talking at the Vatican, and the he was seated right next to Evo Morales, who was also apparently invited to the Vatican…

Who gave a gift of our Lord on a hammler and sickle to the Pope.


All discussing the biggest threat “climate change.” Interesting, is it not, how it is called climate change and not man made global warming anymore?

Huh, I wonder whatever happened to the hole in the ozone. Is it fixed or something?

Anyway, they did not seem to say A THING about the systematic rapes and murders of Christians around the world, but this redistribution topic.

What is with all of the world socialists and communists who are mainly atheists and certainly all pro abortion, doing at the Vatican? Our Pope who was absolutely exposed and espoused liberation theology (socialism/communism,) certainly seems pretty open to them. When this Pope visited Cuba and cosied up to the Castros, did he ask about the dissidents jailed for their expression of faith? Or how they murdered thousand of Catholics and their utter pathetic violations of human rights? I did not read much about it.

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I know a naive ignorant person like myself has no idea what the “operational definitions” are of these theologies, but can you please let us know at what point I can express my concerns over these things?
 
Luigi_Daniele said:
If there is a pro-life candidate on the ballot, a Catholic may not vote for a pro-abortion candidate. Simple as that. No convolution of “but the Church doesn’t really mean that” changes that.

Mental exercise. A disciple approaches Jesus and says that she wants to have an abortion. What do you think He would answer?

Another mental exercise: is it really OK to murder a human being over a 9 month even large inconvenience?
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Yet from the USCCB citizenship guide.
  1. Catholics often face difficult choices about how to vote. This is why it is so important to vote according to a well-formed conscience that perceives the proper relationship among moral goods. A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who favors a policy promoting an intrinsically evil act, such as abortion, euthanasia, assisted suicide, deliberately subjecting workers or the poor to subhuman living conditions, redefining marriage in ways that violate its essential meaning, or racist behavior, **if the voter’s intent is to support that position. **In such cases, a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in grave evil. At the same time, a voter should not use a candidate’s opposition to an intrinsic evil to justify indifference or inattentiveness to other important moral issues involving human life and dignity.
  2. There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate’s unacceptable position even on policies promoting an intrinsically evil act **may reasonably decide to vote for that candidate **for other morally grave reasons.
I don’t know. But Jimmy Carter, who no one can question is a man of Christian faith, believes it might depend on if she was raped or a victim of incest. Or perhaps if her own health or life were at risk. A woman’s life and the lives of her family are sacred too I do believe.
 
CatholicKnight3 said:
Would you please take the time to enlighten us? Not being sarcastic.
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While I’m highly doubtful of the last sentence here given your previous posts, it doesn’t take much to become enlightened. You’re conflating socialism and communism, and you’re claiming that any suggestion that they differ is a rouse. This is in striking contrast to the rest of the world, which acknowledges the differences, and other countries, which have embraced forms of socialism without collapsing in on themselves like dying stars.
 
Sy_Noe said:
Yet from the USCCB citizenship guide.
  1. Catholics often face difficult choices about how to vote. This is why it is so important to vote according to a well-formed conscience that perceives the proper relationship among moral goods. A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who favors a policy promoting an intrinsically evil act, such as abortion, euthanasia, assisted suicide, deliberately subjecting workers or the poor to subhuman living conditions, redefining marriage in ways that violate its essential meaning, or racist behavior, **if the voter’s intent is to support that position. **In such cases, a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in grave evil. At the same time, a voter should not use a candidate’s opposition to an intrinsic evil to justify indifference or inattentiveness to other important moral issues involving human life and dignity.
  2. There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate’s unacceptable position even on policies promoting an intrinsically evil act **may reasonably decide to vote for that candidate **for other morally grave reasons.
e.
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Code: 
 Like corruption?
That not only kills and causes pain but spreads its intent to go further.?

Sy,it isn t that difficult. Choose as you will.
Even Sanders has explained his differences with the Church and what you will get: socialism. And do not blame it on Sanders if more hardcore followers run with other flags. That is a given.
You will get used to be referred to as " oligarchy", you will be able to live with it. But it will not change your heart,just your social class. Perhaps.
But getting anaesthisia about the suffering of others,that isn t a.good deal. That we cannot live with.
Code: 
  His views are clear. No one can be deceived by Sanders.He is saying it. You ll get what you ve voted for. 

 This is not utopía but the real.world.
 
gracepoole said:
While I’m highly doubtful of the last sentence here given your previous posts, it doesn’t take much to become enlightened. You’re conflating socialism and communism, and you’re claiming that any suggestion that they differ is a rouse. This is in striking contrast to the rest of the world, which acknowledges the differences, and other countries, which have embraced forms of socialism without collapsing in on themselves like dying stars.
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Oh, I am conflating stuff.

Ok.

What is your thought of the hammer and sickle with our Lord on there as a gift? You don’t think Cuba…

Never mind.

I am wondering, If socialism (sold as Robin Hood every time and uses the poor as political pawns and CONFLATES victimology as Saul Alinsky said) was so great, then why are there so many desperately trying to escape those paradises to get to America?

I know many love to point out the corruption of the horrible free market, but I am trying figure out why there is not as much disdain for the corruption in socialist systems.

Are you one of those who point to the Scandinavian countries as socialist successes?
 
CatholicKnight3 said:
Yeah, here we go. He is a communist. Of course he cannot say that. Pure socialism IS COMMUNISM.

He honeymooned in the former USSR and in Cuba.

He is an absolute communist whether he is selling it as SOCIALISM OR NOT.
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I’ve been to the USSR and I’ve been to Cuba. Doesn’t make me a Communist.

I haven’t heard Senator Sanders advocate state ownership of the means of production, or Marxist economics, or anything like that. By the standards of pretty much any other developed nation in the world, Sanders would be considered a mildly liberal centrist. My Canadian wife, for example, doesn’t get what all the hullaballoo is about – Sanders would be just another candidate up there. But then maybe you think Canada is a Communist nation.

Please. He’s not a Communist. That’s just silly.
CatholicKnight3 said:
Jimmy Kimmel says "A moment ago you said God forbid, you say you’re culturally jewish, do you believe in god? Bernie instantly says, “No” while Jimmy is mid sentence Jimmy goes on to ask: And do you think that’s important to the people of the United States?

Bernie Sanders replies: Well I am what I am, and what I believe in, what my spirituality is about, is that we’re all in this together. I think it’s not a good thing to believe that as human beings we can turn our backs on the suffering of other people.

youtube.com/watch?v=Q1g1j8yq-qE
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Sanders may be an atheist. I don’t know (or care). But atheism is not the same thing as Communism. You’ll find about a zillion libertarian atheists who are extreme capitalists right here in the United States – just look at Silicon Valley.
 
CatholicKnight3 said:
Yeah, here we go. He is a communist. Of course he cannot say that. Pure socialism IS COMMUNISM.

He honeymooned in the former USSR and in Cuba.

He is an absolute communist whether he is selling it as SOCIALISM OR NOT.

In October of 2015 Bernie Sanders was on Jimmy Kimmel live. Bernie didn’t profess a theistic belief, indicated he didn’t believe in god, and promoted the ideals humanism. He was referred to as a cultural jew which by many accounts is a non-believer who feels a kinship with the jewish people and religion whether that be by celebrating certain holidays or by acting what they perceive as “jewish.” Celebatheists site owner and well known atheist Brian Sapient has referred to himself as culturally jewish, as well as American Atheists President, David Silverman.

Jimmy Kimmel says "A moment ago you said God forbid, you say you’re culturally jewish, do you believe in god? Bernie instantly says, “No” while Jimmy is mid sentence Jimmy goes on to ask: And do you think that’s important to the people of the United States?

Bernie Sanders replies: Well I am what I am, and what I believe in, what my spirituality is about, is that we’re all in this together. I think it’s not a good thing to believe that as human beings we can turn our backs on the suffering of other people.

youtube.com/watch?v=Q1g1j8yq-qE
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Helping others, that is, good works are a cornerstone of Judaism, more important even than faith. In this sense, Sanders is certainly Jewish.
 
Personal message would be the appropriate method to use if you wish to use the language of some other country on this English speaking forum directed to one recipient.
 
meltzerboy said:
Helping others, that is, good works are a cornerstone of Judaism, more important even than faith. In this sense, Sanders is certainly Jewish.
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If you get the chance read " On Heaven and Earth" by Bergoglio and Rabbi Skorka. It is beautiful. And beautiful how they “knit” their dialogue.Have been friends for a very long time.
 
CatholicKnight3 said:
Yeah, here we go. He is a communist. Of course he cannot say that. Pure socialism IS COMMUNISM.

He honeymooned in the former USSR and in Cuba.

He is an absolute communist whether he is selling it as SOCIALISM OR NOT.

In October of 2015 Bernie Sanders was on Jimmy Kimmel live. Bernie didn’t profess a theistic belief, indicated he didn’t believe in god, and promoted the ideals humanism. He was referred to as a cultural jew which by many accounts is a non-believer who feels a kinship with the jewish people and religion whether that be by celebrating certain holidays or by acting what they perceive as “jewish.” Celebatheists site owner and well known atheist Brian Sapient has referred to himself as culturally jewish, as well as American Atheists President, David Silverman.

Jimmy Kimmel says "A moment ago you said God forbid, you say you’re culturally jewish, do you believe in god? Bernie instantly says, “No” while Jimmy is mid sentence Jimmy goes on to ask: And do you think that’s important to the people of the United States?

Bernie Sanders replies: Well I am what I am, and what I believe in, what my spirituality is about, is that we’re all in this together. I think it’s not a good thing to believe that as human beings we can turn our backs on the suffering of other people.

youtube.com/watch?v=Q1g1j8yq-qE
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And yet God is relevant to him.

youtube.com/watch?v=8uBiDYh1sLU

I’ve never understood what difference a President makes in my ability to pray though. I pray to God. I have under Republicans and Democrats. Including over the last 7+ yrs. As I did in the previous 8 yrs preceding that and long before. I don’t need a President in order to pray. 🤷
 
grotto said:
Personal message would be the appropriate method to use if you wish to use the language of some other country on this English speaking forum directed to one recipient.
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Grotto…just a break…no big deal…
 
Sy_Noe said:
Yet from the USCCB citizenship guide.
  1. Catholics often face difficult choices about how to vote. This is why it is so important to vote according to a well-formed conscience that perceives the proper relationship among moral goods. A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who favors a policy promoting an intrinsically evil act, such as abortion, euthanasia, assisted suicide, deliberately subjecting workers or the poor to subhuman living conditions, redefining marriage in ways that violate its essential meaning, or racist behavior, **if the voter’s intent is to support that position. **In such cases, a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in grave evil. At the same time, a voter should not use a candidate’s opposition to an intrinsic evil to justify indifference or inattentiveness to other important moral issues involving human life and dignity.
  2. There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate’s unacceptable position even on policies promoting an intrinsically evil act **may reasonably decide to vote for that candidate **for other morally grave reasons.
I don’t know. But Jimmy Carter, who no one can question is a man of Christian faith, believes it might depend on if she was raped or a victim of incest. Or perhaps if her own health or life were at risk. A woman’s life and the lives of her family are sacred too I do believe.
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👍 Yes!
 
Sy_Noe said:
Yet from the USCCB citizenship guide.
  1. Catholics often face difficult choices about how to vote. This is why it is so important to vote according to a well-formed conscience that perceives the proper relationship among moral goods. A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who favors a policy promoting an intrinsically evil act, such as abortion, euthanasia, assisted suicide, deliberately subjecting workers or the poor to subhuman living conditions, redefining marriage in ways that violate its essential meaning, or racist behavior, **if the voter’s intent is to support that position. **In such cases, a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in grave evil. At the same time, a voter should not use a candidate’s opposition to an intrinsic evil to justify indifference or inattentiveness to other important moral issues involving human life and dignity.
  2. There may be times when a Catholic who rejects a candidate’s unacceptable position even on policies promoting an intrinsically evil act **may reasonably decide to vote for that candidate **for other morally grave reasons.
I don’t know. But Jimmy Carter, who no one can question is a man of Christian faith, believes it might depend on if she was raped or a victim of incest. Or perhaps if her own health or life were at risk. A woman’s life and the lives of her family are sacred too I do believe.
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Bishop Vasa:
Bishop Robert F. Vasa of Baker, Ore., in a column for the Oct. 21 issue of the Catholic Sentinel diocesan newspaper, warned against what he said were mistaken interpretations of the U.S. bishops’ 2007 document, “Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship.”
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“The document does not say, for instance, that it is just fine to vote for a pro-abortion candidate as long as one votes for that candidate only because of his or her stand on other important social issues,” he wrote. “Casting a vote, even for reasons other than the candidate’s pro-abortion position, is still casting a vote for the preservation of ‘a legal system which violates the basic right to life.’”
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He compared support for a candidate who supports keeping abortion legal to backing a candidate who vows to institute a program of genocide against a minority group or “an aggressive program of torture to root out crime, violence and terrorism in this country.”
“Just as a vote for a genocidal maniac is a vote for genocide and a vote for the avowed torturer is a vote for torture … so a vote for a promoter of abortion, when there is another less evil alternative, is a vote for abortion,” Bishop Vasa said.
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nzcatholic.org.nz/2008/10/31/american-bishops-address-abortion-election-in-columns-statements
 
_Abyssinia said:
Bishop Vasa:

nzcatholic.org.nz/2008/10/31/american-bishops-address-abortion-election-in-columns-statements
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Some more…though it may come in one ear and leave through the other one…but still here we go:

Catholics In Political Life

We speak as bishops, as teachers of the Catholic faith and of the moral law. We have the duty to teach about human life and dignity, marriage and family, war and peace, the needs of the poor and the demands of justice. Today we continue our efforts to teach on a uniquely important matter that has recently been a source of concern for Catholics and others.

It is the teaching of the Catholic Church from the very beginning, founded on her understanding of her Lord’s own witness to the sacredness of human life, that the killing of an unborn child is always intrinsically evil and can never be justified. If those who perform an abortion and those who cooperate willingly in the action are fully aware of the objective evil of what they do, they are guilty of grave sin and thereby separate themselves from God’s grace. This is the constant and received teaching of the Church. It is, as well, the conviction of many other people of good will.

To make such intrinsically evil actions legal is itself wrong. This is the point most recently highlighted in official Catholic teaching. The legal system as such can be said to cooperate in evil when it fails to protect the lives of those who have no protection except the law. In the United States of America, abortion on demand has been made a constitutional right by a decision of the Supreme Court. Failing to protect the lives of innocent and defenseless members of the human race is to sin against justice. Those who formulate law therefore have an obligation in conscience to work toward correcting morally defective laws, lest they be guilty of cooperating in evil and in sinning against the common good.

As our conference has insisted in Faithful Citizenship…

usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/church-teaching/catholics-in-political-life.cfm
 
graciew said:
Some more…though it may come in one ear and leave through the other one…but still here we go:

Catholics In Political Life

We speak as bishops, as teachers of the Catholic faith and of the moral law. We have the duty to teach about human life and dignity, marriage and family, war and peace, the needs of the poor and the demands of justice. Today we continue our efforts to teach on a uniquely important matter that has recently been a source of concern for Catholics and others.

It is the teaching of the Catholic Church from the very beginning, founded on her understanding of her Lord’s own witness to the sacredness of human life, that the killing of an unborn child is always intrinsically evil and can never be justified. If those who perform an abortion and those who cooperate willingly in the action are fully aware of the objective evil of what they do, they are guilty of grave sin and thereby separate themselves from God’s grace. This is the constant and received teaching of the Church. It is, as well, the conviction of many other people of good will.

To make such intrinsically evil actions legal is itself wrong. This is the point most recently highlighted in official Catholic teaching. The legal system as such can be said to cooperate in evil when it fails to protect the lives of those who have no protection except the law. In the United States of America, abortion on demand has been made a constitutional right by a decision of the Supreme Court. Failing to protect the lives of innocent and defenseless members of the human race is to sin against justice. Those who formulate law therefore have an obligation in conscience to work toward correcting morally defective laws, lest they be guilty of cooperating in evil and in sinning against the common good.
**
As our conference has insisted in Faithful Citizenship…
**

usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/church-teaching/catholics-in-political-life.cfm
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A nice reminder to those Catholics who claim Faithful Citizenship gives them Church approval to vote in support of evil .
 
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