Sanders Thread

[PopePiusXIISupp]

JOHN PAUL II (1978-2005)

Socialism: Danger of a “simple and radical solution”

“It may seem surprising that ‘socialism’ appeared at the beginning of the Pope’s critique of solutions to the ‘question of the working class’ at a time when ‘socialism’ was not yet in the form of a strong and powerful State, with all the resources which that implies, as was later to happen. However, he correctly judged the danger posed to the masses by the attractive presentation of this simple and radical solution to the ‘question of the working class.’" (Encyclical Centesimus Annus - On the 100th anniversary of Pope Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum, May 1, 1991, n. 12)

Benedict-XVI

BENEDICT XVI (2005 - 2013)

We do not Need a State which Controls Everything

“The State which would provide everything, absorbing everything into itself, would ultimately become a mere bureaucracy incapable of guaranteeing the very thing which the suffering person - every person - needs: namely, loving personal concern. We do not need a State which regulates and controls everything, but a State which, in accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, generously acknowledges and supports initiatives arising from the different social forces and combines spontaneity with closeness to those in need. … In the end, the claim that just social structures would make works of charity superfluous masks a materialist conception of man: the mistaken notion that man can live ‘by bread alone’ (Mt 4:4; cf. Dt 8:3) - a conviction that demeans man and ultimately disregards all that is specifically human.” (Encyclical Deus Caritas Est, December 25, 2005, n. 28)

 

[Sy_Noe]

Sure you do. For example, you regularly quote Pope Benedict about the Catholics disagreeing on the death penalty and not abortion. You take this to mean that a Catholic cannot vote for abortion. That is your personal interpretation. I don’t read it the same way.

What you have are a few bishops that say a Catholic cannot vote for a pro-choice candidate. It ignores the Faithful Citizenship guide that was approved by more than 85% of the bishops and the statements of Bishop Kicanas about the complexity of the issues facing voters. I’m sure that Catholics can read all of what has been provided and make their own determination of intent.

Amen

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Amen

From me, too!

 

[estesbob]

Sure you do. For example, you regularly quote Pope Benedict about the Catholics disagreeing on the death penalty and not abortion. You take this to mean that a Catholic cannot vote for abortion. That is your personal interpretation. I don’t read it the same way.

What you have are a few bishops that say a Catholic cannot vote for a pro-choice candidate. It ignores the Faithful Citizenship guide that was approved by more than 85% of the bishops and the statements of Bishop Kicanas about the complexity of the issues facing voters. I’m sure that Catholics can read all of what has been provided and make their own determination of intent.

And yet you can not find a single Bishop who backs your view. I post sources-you post opinions .

 

[Darryl1958]

Sanders and his wife paying $27,653 in federal income taxes in 2014, on a joint income of $205,271 — an effective federal tax rate of 13.5 percent. If that seems low to you, your instincts are right: According to the Tax Foundation, the average federal income-tax rate for a couple making $200,000 to $500,000 in 2014 was 15.2 percent. The “millionaires and billionaires” that Sanders is so fond of berating payed, on average, just more than twice as much of their income (27.4 percent) in federal taxes as he did.

Read more at: nationalreview.com/article/434194/bernie-sanders-tax-returns-reveal-hypocrisy

Who would berate Bernie for saving money on taxes? The man knows how to fill out a tax form, maybe even better than most white-collar liberals.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Who would berate Bernie for saving money on taxes? The man knows how to fill out a tax form, maybe even better than most white-collar liberals.

I think it is a good discussion to have regarding tax deductions. I think the mortgage interest deduction is one of our more misguided tax policies. It diverts investment from the productive part of the economy to the consumption part of the economy.

 

[sallybutler]

I think it is a good discussion to have regarding tax deductions. I think the mortgage interest deduction is one of our more misguided tax policies. It diverts investment from the productive part of the economy to the consumption part of the economy.

There would be no productive part of the economy (create products) unless there was a consumption part of the economy (people who want/need to buy products). You need both.

 

[stinkcat_14]

There would be no productive part of the economy (create products) unless there was a consumption part of the economy (people who want/need to buy products). You need both.

People will consume on their own, they don’t need tax deductions to get them to buy housing.

 

[sallybutler]

People will consume on their own, they don’t need tax deductions to get them to buy housing.

The tax deduction isn’t for the homeowners. It is for the banks and the realtors. They are the lobby that prevents it from being overturned.

Would you apply that to all tax deductions. After all, people will also produce on their own

BTW, I was responding to your statement that seemed (to me anyway) disconnected from the tax deduction. My bad.

 

[stinkcat_14]

The tax deduction isn’t for the homeowners. It is for the banks and the realtors. They are the lobby that prevents it from being overturned.

I agree, and that is part of the problem. We have overinvested in housing in the US. The lobbying is what makes tax reform so difficult.

Would you apply that to all tax deductions. After all, people will also produce on their own

BTW, I was responding to your statement that seemed (to me anyway) disconnected from the tax deduction. My bad.

I think there is a place for legitimate business deductions. The problem is, for homeowners, mortgage interest is not a business deduction. It would be one thing to help first time homebuyers, but you can borrow $1 million on a mortgage and still deduct the interest. First time homebuyers don’t typically by million dollar homes.

 

[sallybutler]

I agree, and that is part of the problem. We have overinvested in housing in the US. The lobbying is what makes tax reform so difficult.

I think there is a place for legitimate business deductions. The problem is, for homeowners, mortgage interest is not a business deduction. It would be one thing to help first time homebuyers, but you can borrow $1 million on a mortgage and still deduct the interest. First time homebuyers don’t typically by million dollar homes.

And therein lies the rub. How does one determine what a legitimate business deduction is? What does that mean? Should depreciation be a deduction? Should office supplies? Should only one time purchases or recurring purchases? Should employee costs? Should insurance?

Why shouldn’t non-business owners get the same deductions if they have the same kinds of deductions? After all, isn’t a family like a business (insurances, recurring costs, one-times costs, children’s allowance, clothing, etc)?

 

[zz912]

And therein lies the rub. How does one determine what a legitimate business deduction is? What does that mean? Should depreciation be a deduction? Should office supplies? Should only one time purchases or recurring purchases? Should employee costs? Should insurance?

Why shouldn’t non-business owners get the same deductions if they have the same kinds of deductions? After all, isn’t a family like a business (insurances, recurring costs, one-times costs, children’s allowance, clothing, etc)?

Why not just stop taxing income altogether and stop letting the government snoop into peoples’ lives?

Use only sales-based taxes and allow people the freedom this country was actually founded upon and is their inherent right.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Why not just stop taxing income altogether and stop letting the government snoop into peoples’ lives?

Use only sales-based taxes and allow people the freedom this country was actually founded upon and is their inherent right.

I would be in favor of a consumption tax over our current income tax system.

 

[mary_bobo]

The tax deduction isn’t for the homeowners. It is for the banks and the realtors. They are the lobby that prevents it from being overturned.

Would you apply that to all tax deductions. After all, people will also produce on their own

BTW, I was responding to your statement that seemed (to me anyway) disconnected from the tax deduction. My bad.

Homeowners think it is for them. Every time such a thing is suggested there is much moaning and groaning from tax payers. I think we might be the only country that allows such a deduction. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I would be in favor of a consumption tax over our current income tax system.

My concern over a consumption tax is it could hurt those of lower income who still must consume. While those at the upper income levels can well afford to pay tax on all that they consume. They can also afford to pay more income tax though as far as I’m concerned.

 

[Crossbones]

I have given direct quotes to back up what I have said, no interpretation needed Can you do the same

Let’s read this again.

INTERVIEWER: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go. Is that right?

BISHOP KICANAS: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices.

So, unless an interviewer asks the specific question that you seek a direct quote on, I don’t think you’re going to get that answer. People can reasonably understand the Bishop’s views. Personally, I would like very much for some bishops to explain how we can ignore unjust wars and torture and why we’re not using the Faithful Citizenship guide when they say that the only issue to vote on abortion. I’ll guess we’ll both be waiting.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Why not just stop taxing income altogether and stop letting the government snoop into peoples’ lives?

Use only sales-based taxes and allow people the freedom this country was actually founded upon and is their inherent right.

LOL and I suppose stop letting the government snoop into people’s lives includes in areas such as abortion and gay marriage. Conservatives are all for not snooping into lives when it comes to taxes. Not so much in other areas.

 

[sallybutler]

Why not just stop taxing income altogether and stop letting the government snoop into peoples’ lives?

Use only sales-based taxes and allow people the freedom this country was actually founded upon and is their inherent right.

That runs into so many other issues. What is considered consumption. Do you tax services. How do you collect it? do you tax out of country products/parts more than in country products/parts? Do you tax any transfer of money, what about bartering, interest earned, etc. What is a ‘sale’.

This can be (and has been) discussed ad nauseum. We won’t even be able to agree on what will and won’t be taxed.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Let’s read this again.

INTERVIEWER: If I’m hearing you correctly, you’re saying that for a Catholic who wants to approach his or her vote in three weeks with the mind of the church, it’s not a slam-dunk which way that vote should go. Is that right?

BISHOP KICANAS: Yes, and I think that’s what “Faithful Citizenship” is saying. As a disciple, as a citizen, you have to weigh issues, you have to consider the character of candidates, what you think they will be able to do in terms of affecting the society and the culture in which we live. Clearly, the document is saying that to vote for someone who is proposing actions that are intrinsically evil, because of their position on those intrinsically evil acts, is certainly problematic for someone who is a believer in Christ. You don’t believe in Christ and then vote for a person simply, or primarily, because they hold a position that’s contrary to the church. You have to take those positions into consideration, and then make a choice. These are never easy choices.

So, unless an interviewer asks the specific question that you seek a direct quote on, I don’t think you’re going to get that answer. People can reasonably understand the Bishop’s views. Personally, I would like very much for some bishops to explain how we can ignore unjust wars and torture and why we’re not using the Faithful Citizenship guide when they say that the only issue to vote on abortion. I’ll guess we’ll both be waiting.

Again? But I give you credit for your patience.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Personally, I would like very much for some bishops to explain how we can ignore unjust wars and torture and why we’re not using the Faithful Citizenship guide when they say that the only issue to vote on abortion. I’ll guess we’ll both be waiting.

You don’t need to wait for a bishop on something as easy as that. Some wars can be just. Some can be unjust, and it’s generally left to individual judgment to make the distinction, understanding that the state is usually the proper decision maker on that. And the Church doesn’t have a definition of “torture” at all.

Whereas, abortion is always abortion. It’s always unjust of its nature. It’s easily defined as the deliberate killing of an unborn child, and it’s always intrinsically evil.

Hard to imagine anything more clear.