SanFrancisco bishop Thinks Gay Propaganda Film Brokeback Mountain is "Very Powerful"

[irenaeus1]

Libero:

Well I thought you had already got that one.

I didn’t know if that was how I should take it - namely that you had a problem with the Bible - since you appealed to it. So no Church authority, no biblical authority - hmmm, so why are you Catholic again? Who is your authority anyway? Oh yeah, your own gut feeling and certain appealing aspects, whatever they are. Now I know whay it is so difficult to dialogue with you. There is no basis to even begin. It sounds as though we would have to go back to more fundamentals like upon what authority do you believe that Jesus even existed, or did what He did, or said what He said, or taught what He taught.

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[irenaeus1]

Libero:

But the Catholic church teaches that all life begins at conception, against the prevailing scientific opinion, therefore, it is really a person, thus it is murder.

But Frances Kissling and numerous others follow the same philosohy that you propose; namely, the Church is not infallible, so they simply believe that the Church has erred in this matter. They ignore Church teaching and go straight to the Bible where there is nothing explicit in it with regard to abortion. And even if it did, so what… perhaps they have a problem with the Bible just as you do.

BTW, it is interestin that you appeal to a Church whom you admit is not infallible. Upon what basis do you know that this particular teaching is not in error?

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[Libero]

But Frances Kissling and numerous others follow the same philosohy that you propose; namely, the Church is not infallible, so they simply believe that the Church has erred in this matter. They ignore Church teaching and go straight to the Bible where there is nothing explicit in it with regard to abortion. And even if it did, so what… perhaps they have a problem with the Bible just as you do.

BTW, it is interestin that you appeal to a Church whom you admit is not infallible. Upon what basis do you know that this particular teaching is not in error?

I would not condemn Frances Kissling, she is not acting out of spite, she may be wrong in my eyes but I will not force my views upon her, I would hope, that one day she changes, but I would want her to do that as she wants to, not because I pressurised her into it.

I look to my mind, I look at what must be recognised as evil, and to me - abortion is evil, I don’t like it, it repulses me - I don’t need the church to recognise that abortion is wrong, I am just lucky that the church seems to agree with me here.

 

[Libero]

I didn’t know if that was how I should take it - namely that you had a problem with the Bible - since you appealed to it. So no Church authority, no biblical authority - hmmm, so why are you Catholic again? Who is your authority anyway? Oh yeah, your own gut feeling and certain appealing aspects, whatever they are. Now I know whay it is so difficult to dialogue with you. There is no basis to even begin. It sounds as though we would have to go back to more fundamentals like upon what authority do you believe that Jesus even existed, or did what He did, or said what He said, or taught what He taught.

Okay, calm down, I suggest that if you are going to get all snappy, you remove the “In Christ” sign off - Christ is not snappy, and besides that, you have assumed that I think the bible is completely wrong - I do not, I think that it has been mistranslated, and would call for clever minds (particularly church figures) to re-exammine it.

I shall not be replying from now on, if posts are anything but kind - hope you understand.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Libero:

Okay, calm down, I suggest that if you are going to get all snappy, you remove the “In Christ” sign off - Christ is not snappy

Maybe *your * Christ is not snappy, but I do believe that the Pharisees and St. Peter would say otherwise concerning the real Jesus Christ.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Christus Rex:

Michael
Gloria In Excelsis Deo

PROUD TO BE

A CATHOLIC BRITON

It’s nice to see an orthodox Catholic over there. With all the rest of these guys, I was starting to worry.

 

[Libero]

It’s nice to see an orthodox Catholic over there. With all the rest of these guys, I was starting to worry.

Oh thanks, what a lovely comment - have you not got anything better to do?

“shalom”

Libero.

 

[estesbob]

Libero:

Well, I am a stubborn old mule… (nope, I aint changing)

Clearly I am going to be the percet quasi - Catholic, you can take the condemning part, and I can take the helping part

You are not a quasi-cathilic. You are a non-cathilic or perhaps a better description is that you have founded the Libero Catholic Church. It is a Church you have created to get you around Catholic Teachings you are uncomfortable with. It is an interesting Church in that it relies in Church teachings, unless you disagree with those teachings, relies on your private interperatation of what you “THINK” Jesus would have said, instead of what he said and relies on Scripture, except when Scripture contradicts what you want to believe. The ultimate authoriy in the “Libero Catholic Church” is Libero. The good part about this church for you is that one can never sin since everything is open to your own private interpretaion.

What you fail to grasp. for instance, is that witnessing to those who engage in homosexual behavior that their behavior is sinful IS the helping part. You are helping them on the road to salvation.

You are not going to “reason” yourself into accepting the infallible teachings of the One True Church. Many of us have tried and most know it is futile. I came to understand that their is no reason for me to sort all these things out-the Church has already done it. I read Augusting, Aquinas, Leo the Great, Edith Stein, et al NOT to convince myself of the TRUTH the Church teaches but to deepen my understaning of it.

BTW-St. Edith Stein would be a good person for you to read and study. She went from being a orthodox Jew to being an atheist to being a Catholic Nun. She is one of the few woman Doctors of the Church. She was gassed in Auschwitz in 1942. Her journey, in some ways, parallells your. Hopefully you will not have to go through the atheist stage before retuning to the fullness of the Church.

One other question. as you do your study and reasearh do you always start with prayer? If you really want to know the TRUTH you can only find it with the help of the Holy Spirit. I would suggest you immerse yourself in daily prayer-either with the abbreviated office found in “Christian Prayer” or the 4 volume set of the Liturgy of the Hours. I pray the latter. Praying the Hours can be a bit intimidating until you figure out where to put all the riobbons each day but if you go that route ill be glad to help you out.

 

[estesbob]

Libero:

I would not condemn Frances Kissling, she is not acting out of spite, she may be wrong in my eyes but I will not force my views upon her, I would hope, that one day she changes, but I would want her to do that as she wants to, not because I pressurised her into it.

.

Libero you just know how to push all my buttons. As one actively involved in the pro-life movement for the lst 35 years , inclusing a 5 year stint as a counselor in a Crisis Pregnancy Center, I most certainly would condemn Francis Kissling. Sge has aided an abetted the death of 40 MILLION CHILDREN! Almost as bad she has given the false impression that one can be Catholic and pro-abortion.

 

[estesbob]

Libero:

But the Catholic church teaches that all life begins at conception, against the prevailing scientific opinion, therefore, it is really a person, thus it is murder.

The prevailing scientific opinion has always been that life begins at conception. I know that many now put forth the idea that life begins at implantation but that idea was not postualted until the mid 50s with the development of the IUD(which prevents implantation).

 

[Libero]

Oh this is completely ridiculous,

I made the incredibly stupid decision to join CAF in the hope that it would better my faith, and make me more in line with the church, and help me receive the love of God. I was truly naive, the action I took had completely the opposite effect, I have found myself constantly arguing with others, and engaging in mean behaviour like I have never done in my entire life.

I refuse to engage in this callous behaviour anymore. There is no love, respect, compassion or understanding in posts here. I have never felt more like I do not belong in the church in my entire life.

So, to all my opponents - you win. I am giving up even bothering to try and get in line with the church’s teachings. If I shall turn into people such as those who cruise around these forums attacking others, then I would rather not - I am off to the church where Bishop Gaillot and Mother Teresa worship. I cannot take anymore of this condescending “I am a better Catholic than you” rubbish, where everyone must conform to the mould of the brilliant Catholic.

Enjoy criticising this post - I know you shall.

 

[irenaeus1]

Libero:

I would not condemn Frances Kissling, she is not acting out of spite, she may be wrong in my eyes but I will not force my views upon her, I would hope, that one day she changes, but I would want her to do that as she wants to, not because I pressurised her into it.

I look to my mind, I look at what must be recognised as evil, and to me - abortion is evil, I don’t like it, it repulses me - I don’t need the church to recognise that abortion is wrong, I am just lucky that the church seems to agree with me here.

This sounds a little self-centered… “the church… agree with me.” Forget about denying oneself and taking up one’s cross. Just make up your own mind and hope with a little luck that the church agrees with you.

Also, I did not say to condemn Frances herself, but we do have the moral obligation to condemn her view. Are these some of the ‘problem’ areas of the Bible for you - where Jesus condemns certain views and behaviors?

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[Libero]

I suggest we simply stop talking about me, for fear of being self centred. Besides, the mods will close this topic (please) shortly if the conversation remains simply a “lets annoy libero” fest.

 

[Liberalsaved]

Libero:

Oh this is completely ridiculous,

I made the incredibly stupid decision to join CAF in the hope that it would better my faith, and make me more in line with the church, and help me receive the love of God. I was truly naive, the action I took had completely the opposite effect, I have found myself constantly arguing with others, and engaging in mean behaviour like I have never done in my entire life.

I refuse to engage in this callous behaviour anymore. There is no love, respect, compassion or understanding in posts here. I have never felt more like I do not belong in the church in my entire life.

So, to all my opponents - you win. I am giving up even bothering to try and get in line with the church’s teachings. If I shall turn into people such as those who cruise around these forums attacking others, then I would rather not - I am off to the church where Bishop Gaillot and Mother Teresa worship. I cannot take anymore of this condescending “I am a better Catholic than you” rubbish, where everyone must conform to the mould of the brilliant Catholic.

Enjoy criticising this post - I know you shall.

Bravo. Don’t take the superiority talk that floats around. It’s unchristian.

 

[irenaeus1]

Libero:

Okay, calm down, I suggest that if you are going to get all snappy, you remove the “In Christ” sign off - Christ is not snappy, and besides that, you have assumed that I think the bible is completely wrong - I do not, I think that it has been mistranslated, and would call for clever minds (particularly church figures) to re-exammine it.

I shall not be replying from now on, if posts are anything but kind - hope you understand.

You sound a bit snappy yourself… perhaps you are confusing snappy with challenging. And I suppose that ALL of the passages where Jesus appears to condemn or “get all snappy” have been mistranslated. How convenient.

And I will continue to sign off ‘In Christ’ because I believe it is you who has mistranslated Jesus’s stern moments. The burden of proof is for you to demonstrate and explain away all the passages where Jesus makes condemning statements.

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[Libero]

You sound a bit snappy yourself… perhaps you are confusing snappy with challenging. And I suppose that ALL of the passages where Jesus appears to condemn or “get all snappy” have been mistranslated. How convenient.

And I will continue to sign off ‘In Christ’ because I believe it is you who has mistranslated Jesus’s stern moments. The burden of proof is for you to demonstrate and explain away all the passages where Jesus makes condemning statements.

I respectfully request that you stop talking about me, decide not to highlight my flaws and focus on your own. Is your aim here to try and make me feel as stupid or as bad as possible? Are you enjoying this? I grow increasingly worried for your psychological state of mind - perhaps you should seek a counsellor?

And yes, I am incredibly snappy, I always am on these forums, even my family have noticed how agressive I have become since joining here - not the best advertisment for the members of, or the forum in general…

 

[estesbob]

Liberalsaved:

Bravo. Don’t take the superiority talk that floats around. It’s unchristian.

POT>>>KETTLE>>>BLACK

 

[irenaeus1]

Libero:

Oh this is completely ridiculous,

I made the incredibly stupid decision to join CAF in the hope that it would better my faith, and make me more in line with the church, and help me receive the love of God. I was truly naive, the action I took had completely the opposite effect, I have found myself constantly arguing with others, and engaging in mean behaviour like I have never done in my entire life.

I refuse to engage in this callous behaviour anymore. There is no love, respect, compassion or understanding in posts here. I have never felt more like I do not belong in the church in my entire life.

So, to all my opponents - you win. I am giving up even bothering to try and get in line with the church’s teachings. If I shall turn into people such as those who cruise around these forums attacking others, then I would rather not - I am off to the church where Bishop Gaillot and Mother Teresa worship. I cannot take anymore of this condescending “I am a better Catholic than you” rubbish, where everyone must conform to the mould of the brilliant Catholic.

Enjoy criticising this post - I know you shall.

Libero - the problem is that it doesn’t sound like you are trying to better your faith or get more in line with Church teachings because all you seem to do is contradict the Church’s teaching and cite dissident references to support your views. If we cite an official church teaching, you simply reply by stating that is not in line with your personal study. So we have to go back to something more fundamental - like what is the source of your authority? This is not criticism or a slam… it to challenge you to think upon what basis is the foundation of your belief for anything that you hold. It’s difficult to communicate this way, so when you read this, you are seeing in this message that I am being snappy, when in reality, I am calmly typing this and speaking it in my mind as if you were my friend. I have used many of these same arguments with my best friend from high school who is Baptist, but guess what?, we are still friends because he considers these issues legitimate challenges, not criticisms.

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[irenaeus1]

Libero:

I suggest we simply stop talking about me, for fear of being self centred. Besides, the mods will close this topic (please) shortly if the conversation remains simply a “lets annoy libero” fest.

See, where you see something a cynical and sarcastic, I am in reality asking for the sake of being challenging. Previously, I asked, “Are these some of the ‘problem’ areas of the Bible for you - where Jesus condemns certain views and behaviors?” This is not a question of entrapment. I am genuinely trying to find from what perspective you are coming from, and challenging you to think this through. I’m sorry that you consider this annoying.

In Christ,
Irenaeus

 

[irenaeus1]

Libero:

I respectfully request that you stop talking about me, decide not to highlight my flaws and focus on your own. Is your aim here to try and make me feel as stupid or as bad as possible? Are you enjoying this? I grow increasingly worried for your psychological state of mind - perhaps you should seek a counsellor?

You don’t have to worry about my psychological state of mind… I’ve checked out in the past as I have had security clearance when working at NASA and a nuclear power facility in my career. I’m sure they would have noticed a glitch in my psyche by now - but perhaps not.

In Christ,
Irenaeus