Santa Claus is blasphemous

[VonDerTann]

Stanczyk, some thoughts, if you please:

1. You write, “Despite all the anger on the part of people who see nothing wrong with Santa Claus, I still haven’t seen a rational explanation for it.”

Now, by way of response:

a. Since when does everything we do need a rational explanation?

b. …And since when does lack of rationality = mortal sin? Is it rational for me to root for the wrecked franchise that is the New York Mets? Is rooting for the Mets sinful? I’d say it’s worth credit toward time in purgatory! Is it rational when my wife wears her 4" heels? The world is full of actions which lack rationality but which are nonetheless harmless or at least sinless. They are morally neutral.

c. Despite the foregoing, the rationality of “acting as if Santa Claus is real” can be distilled to: It brings joy to people. It makes children smile. It leads to a spirit of giving. It reminds the godless that Christmas is a Christian holiday and that the USA is in large part a Christian nation, which indirectly gives glory to God…etc., etc.

1. Something that absolutely drives me insane is when Catholics act like sin-obsessed dour killjoys. Such behavior is just so wrong on many levels, not least of which is because a) Catholicism is not and should not be sin obsessed, dour, and killjoy, and b) it harms Catholicism and Catholics by tarring us with the brush that we are also, or should be, sin-obsessed, or dour, or killjoys.

I find it sin obsessed, dour, and killjoy to equate belief in Santa with essentially poisoning young minds and leading them into sin.

There is no study you can point to – or at least, none which you have – which suggests that belief in Santa leads to belief in magic, occult, materialism, etc. Moreover – if you are correct, and belief in Santa is sooooooo bad…why has the Church never officially condemned it? The Church condemns lots of things. It’s silence speaks volumes.

Signed,
Someone who is neither killjoy, nor dour, nor joyless, nor sin obsessed, but still a basically good Catholic (hopefully).

 

[stanczyk]

There is a very good reason Santa lives at the North Pole – that is the native habitat of the Flying Reindeer, Rangifer tarandus volaris.

Aren’t you the guy who was trying to say this wasn’t a lie a few posts ago?

I just cannot fathom the elaborate lengths some people go to in order to perpetuate a silly lie.

 

[Catholic90]

For the 151st time, Santa is real- the spirit of love, generosity, and giving.

Did he miss your house as a child?

 

[stanczyk]

Did he miss your house as a child?

I haven’t personalized this conversation and I would appreciate it if the same courtesy was returned to me.

 

[Catholic90]

Aren’t you the guy who was trying to say this wasn’t a lie a few posts ago?

I just cannot fathom the elaborate lengths some people go to in order to perpetuate a silly lie.

Ha ha! Nope, I am not a guy.

I provided a source for that information. See the link at the end of the post .

 

[Catholic90]

Interesting…

 

[stanczyk]

Ha ha! Nope, I am not a guy.

My apologies.

 

[VonDerTann]

Actually. Stanczyk, I gotta say…whether Santa missed your house as a child is, IMHO, highly relevant to this discussion, under the theory that the things we are deprived of as children are hugely formative in who we become as adults. I know an obese woman who hoards food, because she never had enough to eat as a child. I know atheists who are atheists in large part because of some loss, death, etc., that befell them as children. I know young kids whose dad walked out and who now their sole motivation for acting is to obtain the approval of men in their lives.

If, for example, you were taught that Santa was a “lie” and a “silly” one that that, when your friends were getting presents but you did not, IS significant IMHO.

 

[stanczyk]

Stanczyk, some thoughts, if you please:

1. You write, “Despite all the anger on the part of people who see nothing wrong with Santa Claus, I still haven’t seen a rational explanation for it.”

Now, by way of response:

a. Since when does everything we do need a rational explanation?

An obvious contradiction requires a rational explanation.

b. …And since when does lack of rationality = mortal sin?

This is a straw man argument on your part. I have never said or implied anything like this.

c. Despite the foregoing, the rationality of “acting as if Santa Claus is real” can be distilled to: It brings joy to people. It makes children smile. It leads to a spirit of giving. It reminds the godless that Christmas is a Christian holiday and that the USA is in large part a Christian nation, which indirectly gives glory to God…etc., etc.

A lie that brings joy is still a lie. Occult magic that brings joy is still occult magic.

And I’m not sure how Santa Claus reminds anybody of Christ. Santa Claus overshadows Christ and edges Him out. I don’t see anything about Santa Claus that glorifies God. Santa Claus glorifies materialism.

1. Something that absolutely drives me insane is when Catholics act like sin-obsessed dour killjoys.

You’re being pretty judgmental, I think.

I find it sin obsessed, dour, and killjoy to equate belief in Santa with essentially poisoning young minds and leading them into sin.

I find it careless and lacking in critical thought to unquestioningly accept any folk tradition without regard to the negative effects it might have.

There is no study you can point to – or at least, none which you have – which suggests that belief in Santa leads to belief in magic, occult, materialism, etc.

You misundestand. Belief in Santa doesn’t lead to belief in magic,belief in Santa is belief in magic.

Moreover – if you are correct, and belief in Santa is sooooooo bad…why has the Church never officially condemned it? The Church condemns lots of things. It’s silence speaks volumes.

The catechism is very clear when it comes to lying.

Signed,
Someone who is neither killjoy, nor dour, nor joyless, nor sin obsessed, but still a basically good Catholic (hopefully).

I’m sure you are a not just basically good, but likely a very good Catholic. But you need to think a little bit more about this whole Santa Claus deception.

 

[stanczyk]

Actually. Stanczyk, I gotta say…whether Santa missed your house as a child is, IMHO, highly relevant to this discussion, under the theory that the things we are deprived of as children are hugely formative in who we become as adults. I know an obese woman who hoards food, because she never had enough to eat as a child. I know atheists who are atheists in large part because of some loss, death, etc., that befell them as children. I know young kids whose dad walked out and who now their sole motivation for acting is to obtain the approval of men in their lives.

If, for example, you were taught that Santa was a “lie” and a “silly” one that that, when your friends were getting presents but you did not, IS significant IMHO.

I’m sorry you feel that way, but my family history is none of your business.

In a debate, arguments should stand or fall on their own merits.

 

[Catholic90]

There is no “Santa deception”.

Very interesting turn though…

 

[stanczyk]

There is no “Santa deception”.

That’s patently false.

 

[Catholic90]

That’s patently false.

Nope. It is not.

*"DEAR EDITOR: I am 8 years old.
"Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus.
"Papa says, ‘If you see it in THE SUN it’s so.’
"Please tell me the truth; is there a Santa Claus?

"VIRGINIA O’HANLON.
“115 WEST NINETY-FIFTH STREET.”

VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except [what] they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. **He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.
**
Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas Eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that’s no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You may tear apart the baby’s rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, VIRGINIA, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.*

 

[Catholic90]

So I just found this out - pretty cool!

There is a town called Santa Claus in Indiana. In this town of Santa Claus, there is a Catholic Church called St. Nicholas! It is found on Holiday Blvd!

How cool is that?!?

stnicholascatholicchurch.org/

 

[jfmarm81]

So I just found this out - pretty cool!

There is a town called Santa Claus in Indiana. In this town of Santa Claus, there is a Catholic Church called St. Nicholas! It is found on Holiday Blvd!

How cool is that?!?

stnicholascatholicchurch.org/

That is pretty cool!!

 

[John21652]

Thankfully, there is no such thing as an unforgiveable sin. Moreover, I have never claimed to judge the sins of another, merely pointed out the facts that Santa Claus is a lie, is “magical,” and overshadows Christ…

Does Santa Claus overshadow Christ? Absolutely! This one is also a no-brainer. Christmas shouldn’t be about getting gifts and materialism. People say that atheists are the ones trying to take the Christ out of Christmas, but they don’t need to, we have already done it for them.

May I direct you to the online copy of the December 23rd edition of the Troy Sentinel, in which was published, for the very first time, the poem ACCOUNT OF A VISIT FROM ST. NICHOLAS.

The newspaper greeted its, then, anonymous, publication with the following introduction -

We know not to whom we are indebted for the following description of that unwearied patron of children–that homely, but delightful personification of parental kindness–SANTE CLAUS, his costume and his equipage, as he goes about visiting the fire-sides of this happy land, laden with Christmas bounties; but, from whomsoever it may have come, we give thanks for it. There is, to our apprehension, a spirit of cordial goodness in it, a playfulness of fancy, and a benevolent alacrity to enter into the feelings and promote the simple pleasures of children, which are altogether charming. We hope our little patrons, both lads and lasses, will accept it as proof of our unfeigned good will toward them–as a token of our warmest wish that they may have many a merry Christmas; that they may long retain their beautiful relish for those unbought, homebred joys, which derive their flavor from filial piety and fraternal love, and which they may be assured are the least-alloyed that time can furnish them; and that they may never part with that simplicity of character, which is their own fairest ornament, and for the sake of which they have been pronounced, by authority which one can gainsay, the types of such as shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.Troy Sentinel December 23rd 1823

Now read the poem and enjoy how one man decided to share a little humorous story about his encounter with St. Nicholas. So good was it, that now all around the world that same poetic encounter is shared between parents and their children.

Now, considering how you have such a dead set against the very idea of Santa Claus, even if everybody knows he represents the Saint Nicholas, I await your condemnation of this poem as having subverted Christmas and Jesus Christ and God knows whatever else and then I also await with great anticipation your condemnation of all poetic licence, fairy tales, stories of heroes and villains and everything else that isn’t strictly the “truth”, but which has enthralled children for hundreds of years and all the way back to when Europe and all of Europe was Christian.

Then, once you have your way and the world is emptied of such nonsense and people are once again on your right path, we can get down to business and scare the living beejezus out of tiny wee children about how we celebrate the birthday of a really good man who was born to save them from themselves by having other men flog him, whip Him and then nail Him to a cross made of wood and leave him to die in agony. That’ll keep the little buggers in line, eh?! We’ll worry about the rise in the incidence of bed wetting and nightmares another time. Not so sure about it instilling Christian Charity into 'em at a tender age, but I suppose we can always flog it into 'em a bit later.

 

[stanczyk]

The whole “Yes, Virginia” thing can be used to justify anything. It cheapens the meaning of truth to the point that the concept of truth itself becomes meaningless. It reminds me of the modernist view of truth. I am surprised to see Catholics arguing in favor of this sort of truth-relativism

Moreover, the first actuation, so to say, of every vital phenomenon, and religion, as has been said, belongs to this category, is due to a certain necessity or impulsion; but it has its origin, speaking more particularly of life, in a movement of the heart, which movement is called a sentiment. Therefore, since God is the object of religion, we must conclude that faith, which is the basis and the foundation of all religion, consists in a sentiment which originates from a need of the divine. This need of the divine, which is experienced only in special and favourable circumstances, cannot, of itself, appertain to the domain of consciousness; it is at first latent within the consciousness, or, to borrow a term from modern philosophy, in the subconsciousness, where also its roots lies hidden and undetected.
webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&q=cache:cj2445GK77sJ:http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis_en.html+pius+x+pascendi+sentiment&ct=clnk

Personally, I agree with the Church in this regard, that truth is not relative, but absolute.

 

[stanczyk]

Now, considering how you have such a dead set against the very idea of Santa Claus, even if everybody knows he represents the Saint Nicholas, I await your condemnation of this poem as having subverted Christmas and Jesus Christ and God knows whatever else and then I also await with great anticipation your condemnation of all poetic licence, fairy tales, stories of heroes and villains and everything else that isn’t strictly the “truth”, but which has enthralled children for hundreds of years and all the way back to when Europe and all of Europe was Christian.

All those things are great, so long as nobody is trying to pass them off as true. Fiction has its place. But if you try to deceive someone into believing that fiction is true, then it is no longer fiction but a lie.

Then, once you have your way and the world is emptied of such nonsense and people are once again on your right path, we can get down to business and scare the living beejezus out of tiny wee children about how we celebrate the birthday of a really good man who was born to save them from themselves by having other men flog him, whip Him and then nail Him to a cross made of wood and leave him to die in agony. That’ll keep the little buggers in line, eh?! We’ll worry about the rise in the incidence of bed wetting and nightmares another time. Not so sure about it instilling Christian Charity into 'em at a tender age, but I suppose we can always flog it into 'em a bit later.

I don’t think we need a fake “training-wheels” religion to prepare the way for Christ. It’s not a bad attempt at an argument, but has one crucial flaw. All those fair tales are fiction. The story of Jesus Christ-- however scary-- is true. It’s the most important truth in the world.

So when you equate those fairy tales to the story of Jesus, you are equate base, human fictions to the divine story of Christ. It’s no comparison. There is simply no substitute for Christ.

 

[pnewton]

Despite all the anger on the part of people who see nothing wrong with Santa Claus, I still haven’t seen a rational explanation for it.

I think this is why I disagree with you. I do not accept rationalism or empericism. I can be as logical as the next man, unless the next man is a rationalist or empericist. As the great St. Spock said, “Logic is on the beginning of wisdom, not the end.” ( an interesting play on scripture, btw)

 

[stanczyk]

I can be as logical as the next man, unless the next man is a rationalist or empericist.

Or unless the next man is following the teachings of the Church.

CCC 1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”

CCC 1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed.

CCC 1780 The dignity of the human person implies and requires uprightness of moral conscience. Conscience includes the perception of the principles of morality (synderesis); their application in the given circumstances by practical discernment of reasons and goods; and finally judgment about concrete acts yet to be performed or already performed. **The truth about the moral good, stated in the law of reason, is recognized practically and concretely by the prudent judgment of conscience. **We call that man prudent who chooses in conformity with this judgment.

CCC 1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

You may reject rationality, but the Church does not.