Santa Claus is blasphemous

[kbf1970060]

However much emotions are correlated with thoughts, both rational, and irrational; I remain emotional.

 

[stanczyk]

However much emotions are correlated with thoughts, both rational, and irrational; I remain emotional.

Well, that’s the problem. A lot of people seem to be willing to rationalize lying because of the warm emotions evoked by the Santa Claus deception.

But as the Church makes so clear in the Catechism, the conscience must be formed through reason. Emotion does not dictate right and wrong. A lie that creates joy is still a lie.

 

[karebear92]

Well, that’s the problem. A lot of people seem to be willing to rationalize lying because of the warm emotions evoked by the Santa Claus deception.

But as the Church makes so clear in the Catechism, the conscience must be formed through reason. Emotion does not dictate right and wrong. A lie that creates joy is still a lie.

I don’t know if anyone has shown you this yet, as I don’t have time or patience to read all of the responses. I figured I would post it anyway.

I would also like to point out that this is merely Michelle Arnold’s, Catholic Answers Apologist, opinion. But it is an opinion that I believe people should value a bit more than most: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=119576

 

[Catholic90]

A lie that creates joy is still a lie.

So by your reasoning, it would be a sin to collaborate on a surprise party. Or tell your wife the dress looks great on her (when it does not). Or tell your grandmother you love the hand knitted sweater in wool (that is too small and scratches). Or tell your child his drawing was the best in the class (when its subject was unrecognizable by you). Or tell your child the hand baked chocolate chip cookies are the best you’ve ever tasted (made with too much salt and baked a little too long).

That would all make for a very sad life for those in your life.

 

[Catholic90]

I don’t know if anyone has shown you this yet, as I don’t have time or patience to read all of the responses. I figured I would post it anyway.

I would also like to point out that this is merely Michelle Arnold’s, Catholic Answers Apologist, opinion. But it is an opinion that I believe people should value a bit more than most: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=119576

(I like her recommended reading, too!)

 

[stanczyk]

I don’t know if anyone has shown you this yet, as I don’t have time or patience to read all of the responses. I figured I would post it anyway.

I would also like to point out that this is merely Michelle Arnold’s, Catholic Answers Apologist, opinion. But it is an opinion that I believe people should value a bit more than most: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=119576

CA apologists are not always right. This is a good example.

For instance:

Rather than “lying,” it can be considered “myth-making.”

This is nothing but a rationalization. There is no “myth-making” exception to dishonesty. Trying to pass myths off as truths is lying.

You should note that Ms. Arnould also artfully dodges directly addressing the Catechism on lying.

 

[kbf1970060]

Well, that’s the problem. A lot of people seem to be willing to rationalize lying because of the warm emotions evoked by the Santa Claus deception.

But as the Church makes so clear in the Catechism, the conscience must be formed through reason. Emotion does not dictate right and wrong. A lie that creates joy is still a lie.

I like the jolly man from The North Pole. The reindeer are great. I saw a Mule Deer at Yosemite this summer. A few of them, eating. “Rudolph The Red Nosed Reindeer” has always been a cheerful song.

I don’t regard myself as being problematic, because I am emotional, but I’ve found, that Santa Claus is good about knowing, what is naughty; what is nice. St. Nick, thank you for this winter, it seems a blessing to many of us, that there isn’t so much snow to shovel, but winter only begins in the morning; where I live; the days are certainly getting longer. Lies aren’t especially nice, but if I have to tell a white one, then I still believe in Santa Claus.

 

[jfmarm81]

I have a question. I’m not trying to cause a problem- I am honestly curious about this (and I haven’t read every post, so forgive me if this has been brought up): Has the Church ever published anything against the belief of Santa Claus? I ask this because the legend of Santa has been around for centuries, hence, parents have been lying to their children for centuries. With all of those souls potentially in danger due to the lying, wouldn’t the Church have taken a stance against Santa? Again, I really am just curious; I’m not trying to make anyone upset or anything.
I just feel that if there is no official stance, then everything we have all said is just our own theories/opinions, and they really don’t matter much except to us and those close to us.
Anyway, thanks in advance for anyone who can help with this question.

 

[karebear92]

CA apologists are not always right. This is a good example.

For instance:

This is nothing but a rationalization. There is no “myth-making” exception to dishonesty. Trying to pass myths off as truths is lying.

You should note that Ms. Arnould also artfully dodges directly addressing the Catechism on lying.

So when you tell your children the story about about Adam and Eve are you going to say "well there was this man named Adam and then God made Eve out of Adam’s rib (evolution is wrong) and then this nasty snake, well not a snake, well a snake but it really was Satan, tempted Eve to eat a fruit.
“What kind of fruit, dad/mom?,” your kid replies.
“Well we don’t know but it is usually an apple. "
“So when I eat fruit and learn God is mad at me?”.
“Well, no, you see, this was a special tree of knowledge.”
" Oh… so then evolution isn’t real?”
“Well the story isn’t to be taken literally.”
“What is literally?”
“Well it is morally true and literal but it might not have happened as it is written”
“What is morally? So then Adam and Eve didn’t exist?”
“Well…”

And if your kid is throwing evolution in there, he/she is one heck of an intelligent kid.

Children are limited in mental capacity. Children have imaginations that fill in the gaps. When I was a child my parents told me that there was a bogey man so I shouldn’t talk to strangers. That was much simpler and understandable than telling me that I shouldn’t talk to strangers because they could kidnap, rape, or kill me (or all three). My parents used to tell me that I could be whatever I wanted in life when I wanted to be an astronaut. I have medical disabilities that prevent me from becoming an astronaut but you must take a child’s mental capacity to understand abstract concepts, such as giving and receiving.

 

[kbf1970060]

… My parents used to tell me that I could be whatever I wanted in life when I wanted to be an astronaut. I have medical disabilities that prevent me from becoming an astronaut but you must take a child’s mental capacity to understand abstract concepts, such as giving and receiving.

I’m not certain of this, but if flying in a plane at a particular altitude could qualify a person as an astronaut, then you might take the next flight out with a captain willing to fly high.

 

[stanczyk]

I have a question. I’m not trying to cause a problem- I am honestly curious about this (and I haven’t read every post, so forgive me if this has been brought up): Has the Church ever published anything against the belief of Santa Claus? I ask this because the legend of Santa has been around for centuries, hence, parents have been lying to their children for centuries. With all of those souls potentially in danger due to the lying, wouldn’t the Church have taken a stance against Santa? Again, I really am just curious; I’m not trying to make anyone upset or anything.
I just feel that if there is no official stance, then everything we have all said is just our own theories/opinions, and they really don’t matter much except to us and those close to us.
Anyway, thanks in advance for anyone who can help with this question.

I don’t think there is an official Church position on Santa Claus, any more than there is on the Tooth Fairy. But the following information from the Catholic Encyclopedia on lying is instructive:

St. Augustine, however, took the opposite side, and wrote two short treatises to prove that it is never lawful to tell a lie. His doctrine on this point has generally been followed in the Western Church, and it has been defended as the common opinion by the Schoolmen and by modern divines.

It rests in the first place on Holy Scripture. In places almost innumerable Holy Scripture seems to condemn lying as absolutely and unreservedly as it condemns murder and fornication. Innocent III gives expression in one of his decretals to this interpretation, when he says that Holy Scripture forbids us to lie even to save a man’s life. If, then, we allow the lie of necessity, there seems to be no reason from the theological point of view for not allowing occasional murder and fornication when these crimes would procure great temporal advantage; the absolute character of the moral law will be undermined, it will be reduced to a matter of mere expediency.

The chief argument from reason which St. Thomas and other theologians have used to prove their doctrine is drawn from the nature of truth. Lying is opposed to the virtue of truth or veracity. Truth consists in a correspondence between the thing signified and the signification of it. Man has the power as a reasonable and social being of manifesting his thoughts to his fellow-men. Right order demands that in doing this he should be truthful. If the external manifestation is at variance with the inward thought, the result is a want of right order, a monstrosity in nature, a machine which is out of gear, whose parts do not work together harmoniously.
newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm

 

[karebear92]

I’m not certain of this, but if flying in a plane at a particular altitude could qualify a person as an astronaut, then you might take the next flight out with a captain willing to fly high.

No, I was going to be the first female astronaut to walk on Mars. Delta Airlines stopped servicing Mars a few years ago…

 

[karebear92]

I don’t think there is an official Church position on Santa Claus, any more than there is on the Tooth Fairy. But the following information from the Catholic Encyclopedia on lying is instructive:

I don’t think your definition of lying is the same as St. Augustines. If you look at his teachings of Adam and Eve for example, I am sure he didn’t attempt to tell children his point of view of Adam and Eve. It would have been nearly impossible for them to comprehend.

 

[John21652]

CA apologists are not always right. This is a good example.

You are beginning to make yourself look foolish on quite a few counts. Michelle Arnold outlined the wholse Santa Claus thing beautifully. She’s right; you are wrong and getting yourself in a mighty tangle in the process of being pig headed.

This is nothing but a rationalization.

No, it’s called analogy.

There is no “myth-making” exception to dishonesty. Trying to pass myths off as truths is lying.

Please do yourself a favour and look up the dictionary meanings of “Myth” and “Truth”. Then come back here and tell us that myths involving truths are true. C’mon, own it.

You also need to realise that the ones on this thread, who keep saying Santa is real, and who write about flying reindeer and talcum powder being put down to ‘capture’ his footprints are continuing Christian mythology, which is not denying any Christian truths. You can’t, or wont admit to, seeing the difference.

You should note that Ms. Arnould also artfully dodges directly addressing the Catechism on lying.

Disparaging a well known and respected Catholic apologist is not only insulting, it reeks of hubris on your part.

 

[stanczyk]

I don’t think your definition of lying is the same as St. Augustines. If you look at his teachings of Adam and Eve for example, I am sure he didn’t attempt to tell children his point of view of Adam and Eve. It would have been nearly impossible for them to comprehend.

My definition of lying is taken directly from the Catechism.

 

[stanczyk]

You are beginning to make yourself look foolish on quite a few counts. Michelle Arnold outlined the wholse Santa Claus thing beautifully. She’s right; you are wrong and getting yourself in a mighty tangle in the process of being pig headed.
No, it’s called analogy. Please do yourself a favour and look up the dictionary meanings of “Myth” and “Truth”. Then come back here and tell us that myths involving truths are true. C’mon, own it.

Myths are fiction. Truth is truth. It’s a very simple distinction.

Telling somebody that Santa Claus is a fictitious story about the spirit of generosity is one thing. There may be some “poetic truth” to that. But telling somebody that Santa Claus is genuinely real, lives at the North Pole, and his sleigh can be tracked by NORAD, is nothing more than a lie.

What is pigheaded and foolish is to conflate poetic truths with base lies.

 

[karebear92]

My definition of lying is taken directly from the Catechism.

So then St. Augustine would be a hypocrite? And anybody who tells their children the story of Adam and Eve as literally and historically accurate would also be lying. Oh dear… do you think Jesus was lying when he told the parables… He never stated that they weren’t true!

 

[stanczyk]

Disparaging a well known and respected Catholic apologist is not only insulting, it reeks of hubris on your part.

As I said, CA apologists are not always right. This is one such instance.

 

[stanczyk]

So then St. Augustine would be a hypocrite? And anybody who tells their children the story of Adam and Eve as literally and historically accurate would also be lying. Oh dear… do you think Jesus was lying when he told the parables… He never stated that they weren’t true!

I understand that this is a complex subject, so perhaps you don’t understand the subtle nuances at play.

Jesus never had an intent to deceive when he told His parables, hence they were not lies. Jesus’ parables were merely fiction. It is not a lie to tell a story, without the intent to deceive the believer into thinking the story is literally true.

If you draw from what I have been saying that I think St. Augustine is a hypocrite then you completely misunderstand me. St. Augustine and I are in complete agreement. Moreover, your point about Adam and Eve does not make any sense.

I think you need to watch out so as not to let your emotions overtake you. Calm down a bit. Relax. Realize that it is important to apply logic and rationality to analyze even cherished traditions, because even in these cherished traditions can be insidious problems, like the lies and deceptions associated Santa Claus.

 

[pnewton]

As I said, CA apologists are not always right. This is one such instance.

Fact? There is nothing one with having an opinion, as long as it is recognized as such. However, no Catholic should usurp the teaching authority of the Church and presume to preach doctrine and application where the Church has not. Again, the Catholic Church has no position on Santa Claus. This being a Catholic website, reflects *Catholic *doctrine, not some fundamentalist version of it.