Santa Claus

[Dan_Daly]

So instead of citing a dubious source, you do worse and cite a dubious source that distorts a credible one beyond recognition.

In your hasty attempt to draw parallels between Thor and Santa, you forget key differences that are also signature traits (be it the former or the latter).

Can you offer any explanation for calling “The Year in the Christian Home” a dubious source? I’ve found it to be an excellent resource for the Catholic home.

I haven’t denied that there are differences in how Santa and Thor are portrayed. That would seme obvious, if it there weren’t differences, there would be much more awareness of the link.

Pax Christi

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Can you offer any explanation for calling “The Year in the Christian Home” a dubious source? I’ve found it to be an excellent resource for the Catholic home.

It barely shows up on google for one thing. That’s already an indication that a source is obscure as far as using it to bolster your argument on the internet.

I haven’t denied that there are differences in how Santa and Thor are portrayed. That would seme obvious, if it there weren’t differences, there would be much more awareness of the link.

Common sense would tell you that differences are suppose to sever links, not confirm them. You attempting to draw similarities between Santa Claus and Thor sounds no better than the Zeitgeist atheists attempting to draw similarities between Jesus and Horus. Both attempts have been shown to be one of this century’s worst demonstrations of drawing false parallels that only indicate a poor knowledge of even basic mythology.

 

[Dan_Daly]

It barely shows up on google for one thing. That’s already an indication that a source is obscure as far as using it to bolster your argument on the internet.

It’s interesting that you seem to be interchanging the terms obscure and dubious. To me they carry two very different meanings.

Dubious means suspect or unreliable. Obscure means something is little known. One does not flow from the other. A something very well known could be false (or true) and something little publicized could be true (or false).

Is Fr. Wesier’s book obscure? I would have to say so. I stumbled upon it on the thrift store shelf.

Is it dubious? I’ve yet to hear your argument beyond it doesn’t show up too often on a google search. This is not surprising it’s an out of print small press Catholic book. Popularity does not equate to reliability though. Are you familiar with the book? Or the author? Or the publisher? If so, please present your critique on the reliability of the book.

Pax

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Is it dubious? I’ve yet to hear your argument beyond it doesn’t show up too often on a google search. This is not surprising it’s an out of print small press Catholic book. Popularity does not equate to reliability though. Are you familiar with the book? Or the author? Or the publisher? If so, please present your critique on the reliability of the book.

It’s both obscure and dubious. Obscure because nobody knows about it. Dubious because it attempts to draw parallels between two wholly different mythological characters. The fact that you used backwards logic by saying that the numerous differences are but a block to showing the supposed ‘link’ just makes it even more so.

 

[pnewton]

Can you offer any explanation for calling “The Year in the Christian Home” a dubious source? I’ve found it to be an excellent resource for the Catholic home.

I will say that if they link Thor and Santa, that it is unreliable. That sort of fallacy is a sooooo commonplace, drawing a connection based on similarities. It is a Jack Chick staple, among others, and is common among historical revisionist. It simply is unreliable.

There may be a good reason it is uncommon.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I will say that if they link Thor and Santa, that it is unreliable. That sort of fallacy is a sooooo commonplace, drawing a connection based on similarities. It is a Jack Chick staple, among others, and is common among historical revisionist. It simply is unreliable.

There may be a good reason it is uncommon.

It’s even worse when said similarities are insignificant and are further dwarfed by the greater number of differences.

 

[John21652]

This argument over an “obscure source” has been driving me nuts and caused me to do some “internet scholarship”. That’s just a fancy name for doing some serious research and making cross references to try to put together a “picture” of what is going on. After all, Dan Daly did make a statement in post #105 that Christmas in America is based on the god Thor, Lost Wanderer rightly asked for a source and Dan Daly gave a book title and author. So, let’s see what has turned up…

The Year in the Christian Home by Fr. Francis Weiser.

Well, for a start you have gotten the name of the book wrong. The correct title you needed was “The Year of the Lord in the Christian Home.”

However, the book is still published but with a different title. It is now called Religious Customs In The Family and is available from Amazon for 9 bucks 31 cents.
Now on that Amazon page a reviewer of the book says this -

Every Catholic should have at least one book by Father Francis Weiser. His area of expertise was the devotions and customs of the Liturgical Year in the Catholic Church. This booklet is the reprint of his “Religious Customs in the Family” which was also printed under the title of “The Year of the Lord in the Christian Home.” Father Weiser briefly touches on the major feasts and liturgical seasons of the Church and gives solid advice on how to implement devotions that will reinforce the liturgy of the Church into the home.

Now the underlined sentence explains why the book might be hard to track down. However, it really didn’t take much effort.

However, note what the reviewer says about the author, Fr. Weiser. “His area of expertise was the devotions and customs of the Liturgical Year in the catholic Church.”

However, there is another reviewer who writes this of the book -

Many beautiful; traditional religious customs that will give Catholic homes a truly Catholic spirit year round: E.g.; blessing of children; name days; feast days; Advent and Christmas customs; etc. Great reading for all. Essential to help every Catholic family overcome secularism. Shows the religious source of even such common things as pretzels; hot cross buns; the Easter ham; Thanksgiving Day; Spring Cleaning; etc. What parts of the Christmas Tree are Catholic; and which ones came from secular influence. Very interesting and useful!

Notice what these reviewers are telling us. They are telling us that Father Weiser is differentiating between authentic Christian traditions and celebrations and those that are not authentic.

OK, let’s dig a little deeper. Here’s a link to an autobiographical account of Fr. Weiser. In other words, this is what he wrote about himself - Rev. Father Francis Xavier Weiser, S.J.. Austrian born, fluent in Latin and Greek and schooled in Philosophy and Theology, he was quite a man. He fled to the United States becuase of World .War II.
This is what he writes about Christmas -

Since the great majority of our Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, and other observances actually go back to the inspiration of liturgical thought and symbolism, I judged it a worthwhile subject to explain. Also a priestly subject; for, given the fact that our popular customs contain the radiation of the liturgy, the understanding of this radiation would make the celebration of our Christian feasts within the family warmer, holier, and more truly joyful. At the same time, a better grasp of the religious meaning and message of our family customs would give parents valuable help for the religious training of their little ones.

He wrote the book in question, “Religious Customs in the Family”, in 1956.

Now, to figure out just how Fr. Weiser went about his work and what that work actually was, let’s dig a little deeper. At this web site, Catholic Culture, there is an a rticle called Pretzels for God: Lent and the Pretzel. The story of how the Pretzel is actually an ancient Roman Christian item which was given a German name centuries later is quoted as coming from *“The Year of the Lord in the Christian Home” by Rev. Francis X. Weiser, S.J. (Collegeville, Minnesota, The Liturgical Press, ©1964) p. 89, pp. 93-94. *

So, it seems that Fr. Weiser spent his academic training getting to the roots of what the real and true liturgical practices were.

Here’s more evidence of how he worked and what he was striving for - .CHAPTER 3: EMBER DAYS from Handbook of Christian Feasts and Customs by Father Francis X. Weiser, S.J., Copyright 1958. We come across various web sites that delight in telling Catholics that their feast day celebrations are simply old pagan customs. Fr. Weiser demonstrates, thanks to his superb scholarship, that isn’t the case.

Cont.d

 

[John21652]

Cont.d

We can gain further insight into the work of Fr. Weiser from this web site - FAMILY ADVENT CUSTOMS, by the Liturgical Press, the very same publishing house who gave us Fr. Weiser’s book. The article quotes Fr. Weiser as telling how the Christmas Tree is a very Christian practice, with its roots in the older Jesse Tree and from the ancient Roman’s notion of something green as representing growth and renewal. Fr. Weiser wrote of this in the 1950s, yet today, even some Catholic sites state the Christmas Tree is a recent innovation. I think I’d trust Father Weiser’s scholarship!

On this web site, Fr. Weiser is quoted as sourcing the history of the Christmas Advent Wreath

Now we come to Dan Daly, who, despite getting the name of the book wrong, can tell us tells us in post #107 how Fr. Weiser

cites Helene Guerber:

who is the authoress of Myths of the Norsemen and which is described by reviewers as a beginners book for the study of Norse mythology.

So what was Fr. Weiser doing quoting an authoress of a book on Norse Myhtology that was written during the 19th century? Comparing and contrasting. On this web site Sinterklaas: The feast of St. Nicholas, Fr. Weiser is quoted as having written of northern European customs -

In many parts of Europe children still receive his “visit” on the eve of his feast. Impersonated by a man wearing a long white beard, dressed in the vestments of a bishop, with mitre and crozier, he appears in the homes as a heavenly messenger. Coming at the start of Advent, he admonishes the children to prepare their hearts for a blessed and holy Christmas. He examines them on their prayers. After exhorting them to be good, he distributes fruit and candy and departs with a kindly farewell…

It is drawing a very long and tenuous bow indeed to suggest that Fr. Weiser was trying to assert that Santa Claus is really Thor in Christian guise!!

It is significant that this source predates the mass popularization of Santa in American culture largely through the efforst of Coca-Cola and Macy’s.

Considering how the northern European notion of Sintaklaas predates Coca Cola by some centuries, it is a bit of a stretch to blame that product and company for the invention of Santa Claus.

More so in light of a poem penned and published in 1823, ACCOUNT OF A VISIT FROM ST. NICHOLAS in the Troy Sentinel. It was this poem which gave Santa his flying sleigh, pulled by flying reindeer, all with names. The Troy Sentinel had this to say on its publication of the poem -

We know not to whom we are indebted for the following description of that unwearied patron of children–that homely, but delightful personification of parental kindness–SANTE CLAUS, his costume and his equipage, as he goes about visiting the fire-sides of this happy land, laden with Christmas bounties; but, from whomsoever it may have come, we give thanks for it. There is, to our apprehension, a spirit of cordial goodness in it, a playfulness of fancy, and a benevolent alacrity to enter into the feelings and promote the simple pleasures of children, which are altogether charming. We hope our little patrons, both lads and lasses, will accept it as proof of our unfeigned good will toward them–as a token of our warmest wish that they may have many a merry Christmas; that they may long retain their beautiful relish for those unbought, homebred joys, which derive their flavor from filial piety and fraternal love, and which they may be assured are the least-alloyed that time can furnish them; and that they may never part with that simplicity of character, which is their own fairest ornament, and for the sake of which they have been pronounced, by authority which one can gainsay, the types of such as shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.

No mention of Thor and Coca Cola was till 50 years away from being invented.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Thanks for the research. I apologize for getting the title wrong. Didn’t have my book in front of me when I posted.

I did not say that Coca-Cola invented Santa Claus. I said they played a large role in popularizing the character in American culture. If you go back to the 1820s you will find that although the Santa character existed, it was not anywhere near as prominent a cultural symbol as today.

Pax

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I did not say that Coca-Cola invented Santa Claus. I said they played a large role in popularizing the character in American culture. If you go back to the 1820s you will find that although the Santa character existed, it was not anywhere near as prominent a cultural symbol as today.

Still doesn’t justify drawing parallels between Thor and Santa.

 

[couponfit]

Just a question: Do Catholics in general allow their children to believe in Santa? I was raised by Protestants, and I as well as all of the other kids in my church believed in Santa, but it was always made clear to us that the birth of Jesus was what the holiday was about and that that’s what we should focus on. My mom always told me that Santa loved Jesus very much and his way of celebrating his birthday was to give toys to children to make them happy, because when you love Jesus you want to do nice things for others.

However, my fiance who was raised Catholic was not allowed to believe in Santa or the Easter Bunny because his family wanted him to focus completely on what the holiday was about. (Of course they gave him presents on Xmas though.)

I just wondered what everyone else does. Is Santa allowed in your home? If yes, how do you explain it? If no, why not?

As a Catholic I let my daughter believe in Santa and perpetuate that belief. I endorse it and find it important for children to have Santa. My daughter is very much aware that Christmas is Christ’s mass and she attend church, is aware of Christ’s nativity and message, and is aware of St Nicholas and attends his feast when possible. She is also aware of St Valentine, St Patrick, Easter, etc. I do my best to connect the dots to Christ and his message.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Still doesn’t justify drawing parallels between Thor and Santa.

I never justified the Thor/Santa connection by the Santa/Coca-Cola connection.

If you read up on Santa, you will find that the rejection of devotion to St. Nicholas was a very deliberate part of the Protestant revolt. Nicholas was rejected for several reasons: he was Catholic, he was a saint, he was a priest, he was a bishop. Luther invented the “Kris Kringle”, a child like figure with wings, as a replacement for St. Nicholas. Various European cultures inserted elements of their own pagan mythologies to fill the void left by the removal of the saintly Bishop.

Practically speaking our culture makes it quite clear that Santa is not a Christian figure. My local post office had a special mail box for children to drop off Santa letters and the public schools do all sorts of things with Santa, neither is seen as state involvement in religion. A co-worker of mine received a paniced phone call from his wife a few days ago. There was a big problem. One of the other children in their child’s school…didn’t believe in Santa! Horror of horrors. One wonders what reaction if any would be provoked if one of the other children didn’t believe in Jesus.

Pax Christi

 

[1inICXC]

I think lots of Catholics kid themselves into thinking that you can have Santa and keep the holiday Christ-centered but the truth is, that is NOT possible.

Children will be 100000x more excited about the jolly man who eats cookies and brings them gifts than about Jesus, being born, which is not palpable in any way.

The same families who claim that Christmas is “all about Jesus” even though they have Santa, gasp and say :" what, you guys don’t have Santa, then what do you do!?"

We give Baby Jesus presents, we RECEIVE presents ( always something very small, that they would receive on a regular trip to the mall so that it doesn’t end up captivating all their attention) from Baby Jesus, we sing happy birthday and have the biggest Birthday Party of the Year with the statue of Baby Jeus in the manger right at the centre. Our kids love it and Jesus gets 0 competition!

As far as we’re oncerned, if Santa “died”, this world would be a better place

Another element that influenced our decision was that both DH and I hated, as children, discovering that our parents abused our trust and conspired and lied in order to perpetuate this myth for the first years of our lives. I was truly devastated and angry to replay every Christmas in my head and all those Santa stories and realize it was a collection of grown-up deceptions. It is a lie and a very UNNECESSARY one at that. Christmas brings more joy than any other time of the year without the friggin fat, red guy.

We do St. Nicholas on December 6th, whichbis the rightful date in the Catholic calendar, but the kids know all about the story

 

[CesarAugustus]

I’m against the popularization of the Santa Claus figure.

Over here, (South America) is slowly taking more and more prominence. Lots of Christmas decorations with barely any Christian meaning. I see it too as a exercise of trying to import foreign customs and part of the secularization efforts… deers, Santa Claus, snowmen, snow (in my country, we don’t have seasons)… and the Nativity scenes are slowly dissapearing from public places.

1inICXC:

Another element that influenced our decision was that both DH and I hated, as children, discovering that our parents abused our trust and conspired and lied in order to perpetuate this myth for the first years of our lives. I was truly devastated and angry to replay every Christmas in my head and all those Santa stories and realize it was a collection of grown-up deceptions. It is a lie and a very UNNECESSARY one at that. Christmas brings more joy than any other time of the year without the friggin fat, red guy.

This is another factor to add, too.

Blessings!

 

[CesarAugustus]

Thor and Santa?

No.

In fact, Santa comes from other figures, like Kris Kringle, the Sinterklas, among others, and then, was given its current form in the XIX century, for example, a illustration from Thomas Nast, from 1823, and a poem by Clement Clarke Moore, written in 1823.

In the year 2007 a Spanish theologian made a thread in a Spanish speaking Catholic forum about the history of Santa Claus, sadly, it was deleted along with more threads of messages in a supposed hacker attack.

Blessings!

 

[pnewton]

Practically speaking our culture makes it quite clear that Santa is not a Christian figure.

Culture doesn’t raise children. Parents raise children. Culture may, or may not, have an influence in a given area, depending on the parenting. Santa Claus is a holy Christian archeotype in my home. He kneels at the manger and encourges us to celebrate the birth of Jesus with him. I also noticed that even in the secular claymation show, “Santa Claus is Coming to Town.” that Kris Kringle picked Christmas to deliver presents because it is the holiest night of the year. Of course secularism is rampant in our society. That is irrelevant to Christian parent who can paren responsibility with, or without, incorporating Santa Claus. Likewise secularism can flourish with or without Santa Claus.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Thor and Santa?

No.

In fact, Santa comes from other figures, like Kris Kringle, the Sinterklas, among others, and then, was given its current form in the XIX century, for example, a illustration from Thomas Nast, from 1823, and a poem by Clement Clarke Moore, written in 1823.

In the year 2007 a Spanish theologian made a thread in a Spanish speaking Catholic forum about the history of Santa Claus, sadly, it was deleted along with more threads of messages in a supposed hacker attack.

Blessings!

Sorry, that was a typo, is 1880.

Blessings!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I never justified the Thor/Santa connection by the Santa/Coca-Cola connection.

Coca-Cola has nothing to do with it. You need to re-read your own posts.

The American concept of “Santa” is based upon the pagan god of Thor.

He wore red, came down the chimney, had a big beard, lived in an ice palace in the north, rode through the sky in a chariot pulled by two goats (gnasher and cracker), and had elves to make stuff for him. Sound familiar?

When the English took over New Amsterdam from the Dutch, they became familiar with the Dutch customs regarding gift giving on the feast of St. Nicholas (the Dutch were protestants but had preserved devotion to St. Nicholas). The English Presbyterians liked the gift giving idea, but didn’t want to pollute the minds of their children with such poisonus Catholic ideas as the priesthood, apostolic succession, and the communion of saints. So they dug up Thor.

Santa doesn’t undermine Christmas by accident or abuse, it’s by design.

Keep in mind, I’m still very, very sore about you comparing Norse elves with Santa’s pint-sized little helpers.

 

[jfmarm81]

Culture doesn’t raise children. Parents raise children. Culture may, or may not, have an influence in a given area, depending on the parenting. Santa Claus is a holy Christian archeotype in my home. He kneels at the manger and encourges us to celebrate the birth of Jesus with him. I also noticed that even in the secular claymation show, “Santa Claus is Coming to Town.” that Kris Kringle picked Christmas to deliver presents because it is the holiest night of the year. Of course secularism is rampant in our society. That is irrelevant to Christian parent who can paren responsibility with, or without, incorporating Santa Claus. Likewise secularism can flourish with or without Santa Claus.

I noticed that in ‘Santa Claus is Coming to Town’ as well. I find it very interesting how different the world seemed to be 45-50 years ago. I mean, look at the Charlie Brown Christmas special when Linus quotes Scripture. I don’t see anyone making a show like that in our times now. Sad, really…

 

[Dan_Daly]

Culture doesn’t raise children. Parents raise children. Culture may, or may not, have an influence in a given area, depending on the parenting. Santa Claus is a holy Christian archeotype in my home. He kneels at the manger and encourges us to celebrate the birth of Jesus with him. I also noticed that even in the secular claymation show, “Santa Claus is Coming to Town.” that Kris Kringle picked Christmas to deliver presents because it is the holiest night of the year. Of course secularism is rampant in our society. That is irrelevant to Christian parent who can paren responsibility with, or without, incorporating Santa Claus. Likewise secularism can flourish with or without Santa Claus.

You are correct that parents raise children. How a parent allows the larger culture to influence their children is part of how they raise them.

Symbols do matter. Some are more difficult to “baptize” than others. Could a Catholic family hang a playboy bunny ornanament on their Christmas tree and do so in a pious manner? Perhaps, but I would be skeptical. The symbol stands for pornography. “Well not in my house it doesn’t, it’s just a bunny”. Again, I’m skeptical.

The historical reality is that Santa Claus was developed specifically to replace a pious Catholic tradition- devotion to Saint Nicholas. The roots of the Santa tradition are protestantism, paganism, and commercialism.