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leemarsh2010
Guest
What is the Church’s understanding of the relationship between the Old Testament’s Lucifer and the New Testament’s Satan? Patristic commentary would be quite welcome, as I am having a hard time finding any.
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Jayson
Guest
They are generally regarded as one and the same. Malachi Martin, a famous author and former jesuit who has been involved in many exorcisms, however said that it seemed to him from conversations with demons that Lucifer, Satan, and the Antichrist are like the opposite of the Holy Trinity. Lucifer is the equivalent of the father, Satan is the opposite of the Holy Spirit and Antichrist is the opposite of Christ. This is the opinion of one man, however, and I’d like to see some church teaching on this from other forum members.
I think Lucifer is generally regarded as being the original name of Satan when he was an angel and Satan is a name given to him after the fall. Satan means Adversary. Lucifer means “the shining one” as in “Lucifer, son of the dawn.”
I think Lucifer is generally regarded as being the original name of Satan when he was an angel and Satan is a name given to him after the fall. Satan means Adversary. Lucifer means “the shining one” as in “Lucifer, son of the dawn.”
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leemarsh2010
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I have heard that Fr. Malachi Martin is not a credible source of Catholic teaching.
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jimmy
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I think it would be a grave error to say that Lucifer, Satan, and the AntiChrist are the opposite of The Holy Trinity mainly because God has no opposite. The devil is not God’s opposite because he is not equal to God. God creates, whereas the devil can only corrupt what has been created by God. Evil is a a lack of the showing of God.
I think that Lucifer means “morning star” or something like that. It is his name from when he was an angel. He is considered to be satan.
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Jayson
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It would be grave error if I had meant it the way you took it. I am not great at getting my ideas across. What I simply meant (as I understood it when I read it in Father Martin’s book) is that Satan chooses to mock God at every opportunity. He isn’t the actual opposite but it has been suggested that there are three beings to act in opposition or fulfill a role suggestive of the positions of the indiviudals in the trinity.
Lucifer means light bearer and is simply a latin word used by St. Jerome for the hebrew helel (bright one, morning star, bearer of light). Lucifer is only used once (I think) during the description of the King of Tyre in Isaiah 14:12.
Lucifer means light bearer and is simply a latin word used by St. Jerome for the hebrew helel (bright one, morning star, bearer of light). Lucifer is only used once (I think) during the description of the King of Tyre in Isaiah 14:12.
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leemarsh2010
Guest
Can anyone post the history of Lucifer and Satan being thought og as the same being? The first mention of this that I’ve found is in the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas, although I have heard that the Fathers wrote on this topic as well. Any Magisterial documents would be helpful.
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Jayson
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I hope he isn’t. Because if he is a lot of us are in trouble.
Actually, from what I understand, he was very pro-vatican II and he pushed for change along with Pope Benedict (Father Ratzinger at the time) and many of the other more liberal theologians at the time. He only became a hardline traditionalist much later after coming face to face with evil.
He was a man of great faith, and whether he was wrong or right I don’t know. I hope he’s wrong, and I believe he is, but I also believe he had a much greater faith than I could ever hope to have.
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Jayson
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leemarsh2010
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Thank you Jayson! Does anyone know where I could get the entire text of “De Angelis”?
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jimmy
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I am sorry I misinterpretted what you meant. Lucifer actually means both. i just typed it into a latin lexicon I have on my desktop and it gives both “light bringing” as an adjective, and “morning star” as a noun.
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leemarsh2010
Guest
**Thank you all for your help. I think I answered my own question with some research I did today:
It appears that St. Thomas’ theology on the devil is actually much older than the 13th century, dating back to the beginnings of the Church. Among Early Church Fathers who connected Lucifer and Satan as the same being are St. Jerome, St. Augustine, and Origen. I would imagine that this belief was held by Christians before these writings as well:
St. Jerome (Doctor of the Church) - Against Jovinianus, Book 2, Section 4 circa 400 A.D.
St. Jerome (whom translated “Lucifer” in the Latin Vulgate) writes as if Lucifer and Satan are one and the same.
St. Augustine of Hippo (Doctor of the Church) - On Christian Doctrine, Book 3, Chapter 37 circa 400 A.D.
St. Augustine also writes as if Lucifer and Satan are one and the same.
Origen - De Principiis, Book 1, Chapter 5, Section 5 circa 200 A.D.
But the angels also wonder at the peace which is to be brought about on account of Jesus on the earth, that seat of war, on which Lucifer, star of the morning, fell from heaven, to be warred against and destroyed by Jesus.
Origen - Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book 1, Chapter 13 circa 200 A.D.
Origen as well writes as if Lucifer and Satan are one and the same.**
It appears that St. Thomas’ theology on the devil is actually much older than the 13th century, dating back to the beginnings of the Church. Among Early Church Fathers who connected Lucifer and Satan as the same being are St. Jerome, St. Augustine, and Origen. I would imagine that this belief was held by Christians before these writings as well:
fell who was sending to all nations, and he who was nurtured in a paradise of delight as one of the twelve precious stones, was wounded and went down to hell from the mount of God. Hence the Saviour says in the Gospel: [7]“I beheld Satan falling as lightning from heaven.” If he fell who stood on so sublime a height, who may not fall? If there are falls in heaven, how much more on earth! And yet though Lucifer be fallen (the old serpent after his fall), [8]“his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the muscles of his belly. The great trees are overshadowed by him, and he sleepeth beside the reed, the rush, and the sedge.”
St. Jerome (Doctor of the Church) - Against Jovinianus, Book 2, Section 4 circa 400 A.D.
St. Jerome (whom translated “Lucifer” in the Latin Vulgate) writes as if Lucifer and Satan are one and the same.
, son of the morning!" and the other statements of the context which, under the figure of the king of Babylon, are made about the same person, are of course to be understood of the devil…
St. Augustine of Hippo (Doctor of the Church) - On Christian Doctrine, Book 3, Chapter 37 circa 400 A.D.
St. Augustine also writes as if Lucifer and Satan are one and the same.
, and who used to arise in the morning. For if, as some think, he was a nature of darkness, how is Lucifer said to have existed before? Or how could he arise in the morning, who had in himself nothing of the light? Nay, even the Saviour Himself teaches us, saying of the devil, “Behold, I see Satan fallen from heaven like lightning.” For at one time he was light. Moreover our Lord, who is the truth, compared the power of His own glorious advent to lightning, in the words, “For as the lightning shineth from the height of heaven even to its height again, so will the coming of the Son of man be.” And notwithstanding He compares him to lightning, and says that he fell from heaven, that He might show by this that he had been at one time in heaven, and had had a place among the saints, and had enjoyed a share in that light in which all the saints participate…
Origen - De Principiis, Book 1, Chapter 5, Section 5 circa 200 A.D.
But the angels also wonder at the peace which is to be brought about on account of Jesus on the earth, that seat of war, on which Lucifer, star of the morning, fell from heaven, to be warred against and destroyed by Jesus.
Origen - Commentary on the Gospel of John, Book 1, Chapter 13 circa 200 A.D.
Origen as well writes as if Lucifer and Satan are one and the same.**
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Jayson
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I was looking into the satanist and luciferians view on this issue and they see them as two distinct forces. Lucifer is seen as beeing very intelligent, vain, prideful, etc. He is seen as an angel of light (albeit a fallen one).
Satan is seen as a more carnal, destructive and violent force. He appeals to the passions. This is more of a beast-like force. Part of satanism is seeing man as just another animal and it encourages it’s followers to give in completely to all lusts and desires. It also teaches to lash out at anyone who deserves your anger, etc.
I think they are both sides of the same being and I think both are demonstrated by very well by today’s society.
Satan is seen as a more carnal, destructive and violent force. He appeals to the passions. This is more of a beast-like force. Part of satanism is seeing man as just another animal and it encourages it’s followers to give in completely to all lusts and desires. It also teaches to lash out at anyone who deserves your anger, etc.
I think they are both sides of the same being and I think both are demonstrated by very well by today’s society.
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Chazemataz
Guest
Show me ONE thing in the Bible that says they are the same and I will think so. Untill then, it is just ana djective that means “fallen light.” IT IS NOT SATAN! why would “lucifer” change his name to Satan after his fall to Earth? LUCIFER IS NOT SATAN IT IS AN ADJECTIVE!!!11
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Jayson
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Lucifer (From the Catholic Encyclopedia)
(Hebrew helel; Septuagint heosphoros, Vulgate lucifer)
The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for “the light of the morning” (Job 11:17), “the signs of the zodiac” (Job 38:32), and “the aurora” (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (II Petr. 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the “Exultet” of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.
The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, “to lament”; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1:14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4).
Lucifer is the name by which we refer to Satan before the fall. Satan is the name by which we refer to Lucifer after his fall.
They are the same being.
Is 14:12-15
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Ezekiel 28:12-19
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
(Hebrew helel; Septuagint heosphoros, Vulgate lucifer)
The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for “the light of the morning” (Job 11:17), “the signs of the zodiac” (Job 38:32), and “the aurora” (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (II Petr. 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the “Exultet” of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.
The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, “to lament”; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1:14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4).
Lucifer is the name by which we refer to Satan before the fall. Satan is the name by which we refer to Lucifer after his fall.
They are the same being.
Is 14:12-15
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Ezekiel 28:12-19
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
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Chazemataz
Guest
Tell me, what does the heading of Isiah 14 say? KING NEBUCHADNEZZAR! Nebu was regarded as “the light” and “the Morning Star”. And that last passage Ezekial is talking about Satan. It never says “Lucifer.” I beleive every aspect of “Lucifer’s” fall, but Lucifer never existed: it was Satan.
All your quotations were good and true, but they never said “Lucifer.” Its an adjective applied to Satan, there was a major mixup.
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leemarsh2010
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Biblical passages can have multiple meanings. St. Augustine of Hippo, Doctor of the Church, in the quote I posted above believed that Isaiah was refering to both King Nebuchadnezzar and the devil/Satan/Lucifer. Would I be wrong in saying that the name “Lucifer” could be said to refer to the devil when he was “among the saints (St. Augustine)” in heaven, and “Satan” after his Fall?
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Jayson
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Again, Lucifer is not a proper name, it is the name used to refer to him before the fall. It was already in use before St. Jerome’s translation and so he used in that verse because it was believed to refer to Lucifer.
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Chazemataz
Guest
Satanists, however, do not worship any being. They are idiots who take egotisticalism and self-improtantce into a whole new light. And the Church of Lucifer is a sick, sick joke. They… well, I brought myself to find an article on them and their sickening teachings… perdurabo10.tripod.com/index.html and luciferian.org/ (I have a headache after looking at that awful thing and seeing how single mindedly stupid people can be) thet teach magickal arts and crafts and about satanist philosophy.
But they do not beleive in Satan either. Anton Whackjob LaVey named the stories of his horrid book of the importance of oneself named them after ancient beings int he bible. Leviathan is a sea monster, Belailai is the name of the Babylonian idol, Bel. There may be cults that worship the Satan of the bible, but most people who claim to have been abused and abducted by satanist cults are just seeking attention. however there are devil worshippers in the world and they are people I truly dislike and people whom disgust me.
Hope that clearifies things.
Actually, Chazemataz is right. The Vulgate does not capitalize lucifer, which is simply a common noun which means lightbearer. The term found its way untranslated into the King James and Douay (which in my opinion was an error). And he is also correct in that the term actually refers to King Nebuchadnezzar II in its immediate context. However the Fathers saw in this passage an allusion to Satan as he fell, since they apparently saw a parallel in Nebuchadnezzar and the devil (both were proud and arrogant, both oppress God’s people, and both get thrown down from their positions of glory).
The use of the proper name Lucifer to refer to Satan has come about due to Christian tradition more than any real scriptural exegesis. Not even the Catechism gives the name Lucifer to the devil before the fall.
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ironmonk
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You would be correct. He was kicked out of the Jesuit order from my understanding.
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