Satan (real or metaphorical)

[PazzoGrande]

Check out the book “The Rite: The Making of a Modern Exorcist”. Not only is it a true story that will answer your questions, but it is entertainingly informative and was written by a man who, until he had experienced what he chronicled in the book, a cultural Catholic rather than a practising one, but what he saw when putting the book together changed his views. I didn’t see the movie yet but I’m told it’s very different from the book.

The author, Matt Baglio is also the guy who wrote Argo (yes the one they turned into a movie too in 2012). He was a journalist, and not a theologian or anything else that might have given him a predisposition into writing about demons.

The book is recent and it’s about a priest who is still very much around doing the job. You can Google him to learn about his talks and lectures on the devil and possession, his name is Father Gary Thomas.

 

[C_Del86]

No one read the part on I gave on Exorcisms or the small assertion as to what these devils/demons maybe (spirits of negative people) that well, as it looks. We have had reports of priests of other religions doing exorcism too, even way past BC. It’s not a great argument.

You guys need to have a basis in arguments. At this day, this world is faced with anti-theism, and doubters. So many anti-religious things that can cause young to believe and how are you going to defend christianity based on fundamentals and not reason?

We can prove god exists through academic basis and good reason, we can make a good supportive case on who he is because of academic and reason.

If you guys use the “well, you haven’t experienced the devil” as an argument, what happens if you face a muslim, hindu, or whatever other religion who has claimed the same thing and that it was only casted out in the name of Allah? How does that argument sound to you?

I see stories here of Satan, appearing only to saints and the likes but what if other religions have the same story of devils only appearing to the high religious of their religion? How would you take that. You guys don’t even know yourselves as to how true those stories are but you just trust them anyway, which is the same every other religious Muslim or Hindu does.

The story of Lucifer becoming Satan is nowhere found in the bible directly, that verse from Jesus is not as direct in information, nor is the verses of the old testament of any good reference of it. A good written description of Satan getting booted from heaven is in the Quran, but we know better to trust that book because of it’s lack of sociology credibility in comparison to the gospels.

 

[PazzoGrande]

We don’t know how true the stories are – well in that case we don’t know how true *anything *is that is told to us. If you can’t be an expert in something (and nobody can be an expert in everything), then you’d need to cede to people who are experts in their own fields.

I could understand your argument against demons being real if we were basing only things that were written centuries ago by people who aren’t still around and can’t be interrogated. But that isn’t the case. The book I mentioned wasn’t written ages ago; it was just a few years ago, by people very much still alive, who you could even contact to pick their brains – again ceding to people with better expertise at this than anyone else on this forum.

If credibility is an issue, I can give another prominent, modern-day example. John Paul II conducted two exorcisms, and his secretary – who also once thought the biblical talk on it was metaphorical – witnessed them. His secretary, Cardinal Dziwisz, gave interviews about this in recent years, not long after the Pope had died.

You write about the need of reason: isn’t it reasonable to trust credible people?

True, I didn’t read what you wrote in subsequent posts well, frankly because it was lengthy and I think a lot of us here didn’t bother to invest the time. Those who respond to posts here tend to care a lot less than those who were original posters as they tend not to have much more than a passing interest in whatever question is at hand, and it’ll be like that everywhere here. But like I said, go and read the book. It does a great job at addressing this. You ask us to walk in your country of understanding; try as well to walk in ours.

In terms of an academic study on demons, even that is actually mentioned in the book. Otherwise, then you are free to believe or disbelieve whatever you wish.

 

[TEPO]

The problem with exorcism reports is that we are not fully sure if those reports are real. Second, we’ve “seen” various “recordings” of exorcisms done in different faiths. From Islam, Hindu, to other relgions… all of them have managed to “drive out demons” under the name of a different god.

If you’re saying that non-Catholics who become ‘posessed’ can have demons expelled by Islamic people, then I’d like more information on that.

…the Catholic Church takes exorcisms very seriously. I wasn’t aware that other faiths were at all involved in expelling demons.

 

[CatholicRoots]

No one read the part on I gave on Exorcisms or the small assertion as to what these devils/demons maybe (spirits of negative people) that well, as it looks. We have had reports of priests of other religions doing exorcism too, even way past BC. It’s not a great argument.

You guys need to have a basis in arguments. At this day, this world is faced with anti-theism, and doubters. So many anti-religious things that can cause young to believe and how are you going to defend christianity based on fundamentals and not reason?

We can prove god exists through academic basis and good reason, we can make a good supportive case on who he is because of academic and reason.

You seem to be indicting everyone else of lack of reason, yet do your own responses stand up to the test? You speak of your theory of exorcisms as invasion in a Human by other deceased and negative humans. Where is your sound theological and rational basis for this? It isn’t spoken about in Divine Revelation nor can I think of a single sound rational argument to support this, except it being unfounded conjecture.

This argument could go on endlessly if you just call everything metaphorical that we say is literal, and in consequence of course your not going to believe in a devil and we are.

This was stated in my last post and as yet there hasn’t been a reply. If you accept that Jesus is God how can his testimony be negated? Unless you deny his omniscience which is an implicit denial of his deity.

Contrary to what you say about our arguments, them being supposedly non-reasonable, yours seems an even more strained position. We uphold that informed by divine teaching as revealed in the Church; we believe in a Devil who is in opposition to God and his Saints, as testified in many saints lives and the Bible itself.

 

[TEPO]

If you’re saying that non-Catholics who become ‘posessed’ can have demons expelled by Islamic people, then I’d like more information on that.

…the Catholic Church takes exorcisms very seriously. I wasn’t aware that other faiths were at all involved in expelling demons.

Oh, I found it… Interesting.

wn.com/mobile/Islamic_Exorcism

 

[St_Redemption]

No one read the part on I gave on Exorcisms or the small assertion as to what these devils/demons maybe (spirits of negative people) that well, as it looks. We have had reports of priests of other religions doing exorcism too, even way past BC. It’s not a great argument.

You guys need to have a basis in arguments. At this day, this world is faced with anti-theism, and doubters. So many anti-religious things that can cause young to believe and how are you going to defend christianity based on fundamentals and not reason?

We can prove god exists through academic basis and good reason, we can make a good supportive case on who he is because of academic and reason.

If you guys use the “well, you haven’t experienced the devil” as an argument, what happens if you face a muslim, hindu, or whatever other religion who has claimed the same thing and that it was only casted out in the name of Allah? How does that argument sound to you?

I see stories here of Satan, appearing only to saints and the likes but what if other religions have the same story of devils only appearing to the high religious of their religion? How would you take that. You guys don’t even know yourselves as to how true those stories are but you just trust them anyway, which is the same every other religious Muslim or Hindu does.

The story of Lucifer becoming Satan is nowhere found in the bible directly, that verse from Jesus is not as direct in information, nor is the verses of the old testament of any good reference of it. A good written description of Satan getting booted from heaven is in the Quran, but we know better to trust that book because of it’s lack of sociology credibility in comparison to the gospels.

In my first post I mentioned how the fact that exorcisms are peformed in other religions should not be a problem whatsoever. I have no problem with good people casting out demons in God’s name. Who are we to say that God is not with these people if they are good, loving, and Faithful to what they believe is the good truth.

Your argument of devils appearing to other religions really makes no sense. If there is a devil, he is here to pervert Gods creation and to terrify those people who were made in His image. Why on Earth would he just appear to Christians and not others? On the contrary, one could argue that he would be less likely to appear to Christians as they have some semblence of protection in Christ.

The entire “other religions experiencing exorcisms makes it less likely” argument is a terrible line of reasoning, no offense my friend. Somebody once told me that they read the story of the flood which they assumed to be Noahs flood in another source so that made them doubt the Biblical account. This is very faulty thinking. On the contrary, the separate account only serves to CORROBORATE the account. The exact reverse is true, on the contrary, I would be rather dubious of a historical account if other people never mentioned it anywhere. The fact that they did/do mention it only serves to lend it more historical credibility. The similar is true with the exorcism accounts, which have a historical base in nearly every culture and religion. Far from being evidence against it, it’s powerful evidence FOR it. To say that everything in the Koran is true; but to say that something is not true because it is in the Koran is an astoundingly striking leap of logic. If everything mentioned in the Koran is not true then we need to re-write reality, as the Koran mentions thousands upon thousands of truths. Because the Koran says that God is good, would you really have us believe that that means that God is bad?

If we had only Christian accounts of possession and exorcism then there would be a new group of skeptics who would state, “Well then how come only Christians say that this happen? Obviously this is a Christian invention.” They would say this, and they would have a much stronger argument than the one which you are using now.

 

[EricFilmer]

No one read the part on I gave on Exorcisms or the small assertion as to what these devils/demons maybe (spirits of negative people) that well, as it looks. We have had reports of priests of other religions doing exorcism too, even way past BC. It’s not a great argument.

Although I didn’t bring up exorcisms, exactly how is this not a great argument for the existence of demons? Instead of refuting this position you’ve simply pointed out that exorcisms have taken place throughout the world since the dawn of time. The vast majority of these cases share the following common themes: 1) demons exist, 2) demons are non-human, evil spirits, 3) demons can possess people and do other things to cause us harm, 4) demons are more powerful than humans, and therefore humans are powerless to deal with them, and 5) demons can be expelled by a ritual which appeals to a supernatural power which is greater than the demons. This belief has persisted throughout time across the globe. This seems to me to be a better argument in favor of the existence of demons rather than against. Only the Irish have stories about leprechauns, and only the Japanese have stories about the akurojin-no-hi, but everyone has stories about demons and most of these stories share the traits I mentioned above. I’m not saying that this proves the existence of demons, but it certainly gives credibility to belief in their existence.

You guys need to have a basis in arguments. At this day, this world is faced with anti-theism, and doubters. So many anti-religious things that can cause young to believe and how are you going to defend christianity based on fundamentals and not reason?

As is taught in Catholicism, my belief stems from faith in God’s revelation (Sacred Scripture & Sacred Tradition) interacting with human reason. You haven’t addressed what I presented in Post #13. Is there anything therein that you feel is contrary to human reason?

We can prove god exists through academic basis and good reason, we can make a good supportive case on who he is because of academic and reason.

But the nature of this thread discussion is going beyond this. We can give logical, philosophical support for the existence of a Creator and we can determine some (but not all) aspects of his nature, but we need divine revelation to fill in the rest. The existence of Satan and the event of him falling from grace is not a logical necessity, but neither is my own existence nor the event of me choosing cornflakes for breakfast this morning. They happened anyway.

Think about it this way: Can we make a good supportive case that Jesus is the Eternal Living God solely based upon academics and reason? As far as I can tell, we can’t, and therefore to come to this conclusion we need to combine academics & reason with revelation. If we cannot make a good supportive case that Jesus is the Eternal Living God solely based upon academics and reason, then we can’t expect to do the same in order to demonstrate that Satan exists as a fallen angel. Or to put this another way, if we need to rely on something more than academics and reason to make declarations about a being whose existence is necessary (Christ) then we certainly need to do the same concerning a being whos existence is not necessary (Satan).

If you guys use the “well, you haven’t experienced the devil” as an argument, what happens if you face a muslim, hindu, or whatever other religion who has claimed the same thing and that it was only casted out in the name of Allah? How does that argument sound to you?

I don’t see what the problem is. Christianity represents the fullness of God’s revelation, which was initially entrusted to the Jews as his Chosen People, and then entrusted to the Church founded by the Messiah. But this doesn’t mean that God ignores the rest of the population. In his love and mercy, he’s willing to intercede in the lives of those who don’t fully know or properly acknowledge his revelation. Would you admit that God provides grace and blessings for Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.? If he does then there is no reason to believe that successful exorcisms are not part of such grace and blessings.

(Continued in my next post)

 

[EricFilmer]

(Continued…)

The story of Lucifer becoming Satan is nowhere found in the bible directly, that verse from Jesus is not as direct in information, nor is the verses of the old testament of any good reference of it. A good written description of Satan getting booted from heaven is in the Quran, but we know better to trust that book because of it’s lack of sociology credibility in comparison to the gospels.

Let’s take a look at some Bible verses:

The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you. (Luke 10:17-19, RSV)

Context: The disciples returned from performing successful exorcisms. Unlike the exorcism rituals done in Judaism, the disciples simply had to command the demons to leave in the name of Jesus.

Elaboration on Jesus’ Response: Demons are cast out in his name because he represents the power of heaven and even witnessed the fall of Satan. He is able to give his authoritative power over demons to his disciples.

So this states that Satan was originally in heaven but then fell from heaven. In terms of whether or not this is a metaphor, I addressed that in Post #13.

Moving on…

For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment… (2Peter 2:4, RSV).

So Peter tells us that there were angels who sinned and were cast into hell.

Moving on…

”Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels…” (Matthew 25:41, RSV)

So Jesus says that the devil and his angels end up in hell.

Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they were defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world – he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him (Rev 12:7-9, RSV, emphasis added).

So this states that Satan and his angels were originally in heaven and then thrown down from heaven. Also keep in mind that the imagery in Revelation can have multiple layers of valid interpretation. The dragon can represent evil worldly powers that attack the Church, including the pagan Roman emperors, but it also represents Satan (and the text clearly labels the dragon as such). The descriptions of the dragon in Revelation go beyond what can be attributed to a single man, such as Nero. We can say that Nero is like Satan in some aspects, but from a biblical basis we can’t say that Nero is Satan and that there is no actual fallen angel with this name.

Moving on…

…and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Rev 20:10, RSV)

So not only was the devil cast from heaven, he ultimately ends up in hell.

Even though the Bible does not give a concrete description of an angel named Lucifer becoming a devil named Satan, the Bible most certainly gives a concrete description of an angel named Satan originally being in heaven, rebelling against God with a bunch of other angels (who Peter clearly states had sinned), being cast out of heaven and ending up in hell. In these biblical passages, demons are described as sinful, rebellious angels, not negative human spirits.

A negative human spirit can’t be in heaven to begin with, nor can a metaphor representing the forces of evil.

But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (Rev 21:27, RSV)

These descriptions of Satan and demons have to be descriptions of persons in heaven who are initially good, make a choice to be evil and therefore lose their place in heaven. Moreover, the bible consistently labels these persons as angels, not humans. There is a difference between an angelic spirit and a human one. The Bible will sometimes make comparisons between the two, but that is as far as it goes, and cannot be used to make a valid argument that these spirits are one in the same type of being.

 

[EricFilmer]

Although I didn’t bring up exorcisms, exactly how is this not a great argument for the existence of demons? Instead of refuting this position you’ve simply pointed out that exorcisms have taken place throughout the world since the dawn of time. The vast majority of these cases share the following common themes: 1) demons exist, 2) demons are non-human, evil spirits, 3) demons can possess people and do other things to cause us harm, 4) demons are more powerful than humans, and therefore humans are powerless to deal with them (solely based on our own abilities), and 5) demons can be expelled by a ritual which appeals to a supernatural power which is greater than the demons. This belief has persisted throughout time across the globe. This seems to me to be a better argument in favor of the existence of demons rather than against. Only the Irish have stories about leprechauns, and only the Japanese have stories about the akurojin-no-hi, but everyone has stories about demons and most of these stories share the traits I mentioned above. I’m not saying that this proves the existence of demons, but it certainly gives credibility to belief in their existence.

As is taught in Catholicism, my belief stems from faith in God’s revelation (Sacred Scripture & Sacred Tradition) interacting with human reason. You haven’t addressed what I presented in Post #13. Is there anything therein that you feel is contrary to human reason?

But the nature of this thread discussion is going beyond this. We can give logical, philosophical support for the existence of a Creator and we can determine some (but not all) aspects of his nature, but we need divine revelation to fill in the rest. The existence of Satan and the event of him falling from grace is not a logical necessity, but neither is my own existence nor the event of me choosing cornflakes for breakfast this morning. They happened anyway.

Think about it this way: Can we make a good supportive case that Jesus is the Eternal Living God solely based upon academics and reason? As far as I can tell, we can’t, and therefore to come to this conclusion we need to combine academics & reason with revelation. If we cannot make a good supportive case that Jesus is the Eternal Living God solely based upon academics and reason, then we can’t expect to do the same in order to demonstrate that Satan exists as a fallen angel. Or to put this another way, if we need to rely on something more than academics and reason to make declarations about a being whose existence is necessary (Christ) then we certainly need to do the same concerning a being whos existence is not necessary (Satan).

I don’t see what the problem is. Christianity represents the fullness of God’s revelation, which was initially entrusted to the Jews as his Chosen People, and then entrusted to the Church founded by the Messiah. But this doesn’t mean that God ignores the rest of the population. In his love and mercy, he’s willing to intercede in the lives of those who don’t fully know or properly acknowledge his revelation. Would you admit that God provides grace and blessings for Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.? If he does then there is no reason to believe that successful exorcisms are not part of such grace and blessings.

(Continued in my next post)

 

[chimo]

No one read the part on I gave on Exorcisms or the small assertion as to what these devils/demons maybe (spirits of negative people) that well, as it looks. We have had reports of priests of other religions doing exorcism too, even way past BC. It’s not a great argument.

You guys need to have a basis in arguments. At this day, this world is faced with anti-theism, and doubters. So many anti-religious things that can cause young to believe and how are you going to defend christianity based on fundamentals and not reason?

We can prove god exists through academic basis and good reason, we can make a good supportive case on who he is because of academic and reason.

If you guys use the “well, you haven’t experienced the devil” as an argument, what happens if you face a muslim, hindu, or whatever other religion who has claimed the same thing and that it was only casted out in the name of Allah? How does that argument sound to you?

I see stories here of Satan, appearing only to saints and the likes but what if other religions have the same story of devils only appearing to the high religious of their religion? How would you take that. You guys don’t even know yourselves as to how true those stories are but you just trust them anyway, which is the same every other religious Muslim or Hindu does.

The story of Lucifer becoming Satan is nowhere found in the bible directly, that verse from Jesus is not as direct in information, nor is the verses of the old testament of any good reference of it. A good written description of Satan getting booted from heaven is in the Quran, but we know better to trust that book because of it’s lack of sociology credibility in comparison to the gospels.

When I said you have not experienced the devil I apologize for the misunderstanding of my statement. When I wrote those words I am assuming you are a believer. Every believer does not need proof of the devil’s existence. It is there within your life whether you are a believer or not. Eveyone expeiences the devil but not all wthin the same degree. Christians though can give a more knowledgable expertise than let us say Moslems or Jews. I am sure the devil does not show favoritism but as I said earlier he is not allowed to approach you with more than temptation unless he is given permission. This explains why the saints receive more from him. God will at times permit the devil to do more because God knows the saint will need it for their sancification. As for other religions I am sure God will only allow certain parameters for the devil to exercise his presence. God is no fool and He will never allow the devil a free reign as sometimes the movies portray the devil to have.

I am going to say this. The devil is in fact as are the rest of all the disobedient angels very terrified and scared creatures. They are no more a giant than a dwarf. They use their masquarades as if they are in control of their own faculaties but the opposite is true. They are in constant torment and it is incedible they can hide this truth from us. It is one of their best illusions. Remember that God did not put a monster loose on us but a scared “dwarf” who if we only understand this truth will be able to excel our lives towards those who were the saints. The saints experienced this devil to find out this truth. Sure these men and women were afraid initially but their growth in time made them understand this truth and they no longer were afraid. Now God is not going to let this devil loosed on those who are not ready for it. That was what I meant when I said people may not have experienced the devil yet. If people want to know the truth then come closer to God. The more you want to come closer to be with God this same God will also allow the devil to go beyond the parameters which is already set by God.

Let me explain a bit about the illusions the devil gives for instance to certain individuals. You are a good christian growing into the faith. But a terrible fear comes to you. That night this fear is making you unclear of your own trust and faith in God. So you get up and tell for instance your mother or father your ordeal. You do this not only once but everytime this fear comes to you that night. Then unexpectedly the fear is gone and no longer remains in you. You tell that to the priest the next day and he says comely “there is nothing worse the devil hates but when you tell another what he is up to.” The devil works in secret. Once you reveal the secret he scrams to the nearest exit.

 

[fred_conty]

Jesus expelled thousands of demons from one man in the N T. Then they were allowed to enter pigs. Then the pigs ran off a clift into the sea.

This was all visual to those people who lost their heard of pigs. They weren’t happy about it. If it was not the demons that went into the pigs, then what was it?

Demons are real.

Just a thought.

 

[C_Del86]

Jesus expelled thousands of demons from one man in the N T. Then they were allowed to enter pigs. Then the pigs ran off a clift into the sea.

This was all visual to those people who lost their heard of pigs. They weren’t happy about it. If it was not the demons that went into the pigs, then what was it?

Demons are real.

Just a thought.

Please read the theory i gave about demons.

Lets go back to the scriptural basis and see how the existence of the Devil doesn’t fit Academical basis and theological logic.

**1. The Dogma of Satan being Former Angel that rebelled and was cast down with his other Angels. **

First. We have no OT scriptural basis for this, and the NT basis could indeed be metaphorical, depending on the actual definition of Satan and Demons. Given the translation of Satan to english opens up thought of a possible figurative being.

Second the logic. Now read this part. Suppose we don’t need a direct scriptural basis and we just believe the certain dogmas Protestant to Catholic church instated. Satan was a former Angel who SINNED and was casted down.Meaning to say, he SINNED in HEAVEN. So now lets go back to genesis, according to Genesis. Evil and every thing that comes with it (suffering, mortality, falling short of god) entered the world because of Adam and Eve doing the first sin. Hence sin caused the condition of the world we have now.

Ok, however we are told that Satan pre exists man and was an angel before who was booted out because of his iniquity. Now, logically SIN first came into existence in heaven… due to Satan and his # of angels so why is it that Heaven didn’t change like the world did when Man fell from the grace of God? That doesn’t make any sense because are to believe that God is a just god so gradually heaven should of had the same illness because of the fact that Sin also entered it through satan and it possibly out weighs the sin in genesis.

See the reason why Judaism never believed in Satan wasn’t just because it was absent in scripture but it actually suggests that Sin is possible to do in heaven. So if Satan, a HIGH angel in the midst of everlasting grace was able to build a seed of corruption (sin) then why is it impossible to think or wonder if any of the Angels or Saints we have read about are still up there? What would make us think that they never made one sin up there after these millions of years? If Satan could fall, why can’t they?

When you read that, you can actually think of absurd the thought of Angels (Michael, Raphael…) and Saints (Mary, Joseph, Apostles…) being booted out of heaven. Because we know it’s not just not theological logical for even a spec of corruption to accumulate in the area where God’s grace is fully present. It’s like suggesting that you can remain dry while standing in the ocean. God’s grace is just as consuming as water would be, making it impossible for iniquity to even cause a spec of stain. And if it were possible given that we choose to believe in Satan’s origin, then we are almost forced to believe the possibility of others in heaven (in this present day) to be prone to sinning as well. And we will have to wonder why Heaven didn’t become what the world did when Sin made it’s appearance.

I’m not going to rule out Satan’s existence at 100% yet. I still trying to search for reasonable information because right now, i am highly assuming that Satan was a metaphorical description of our animalistic nature, which is reverse to the morality law given in our souls.

 

[C_Del86]

We don’t know how true the stories are – well in that case we don’t know how true *anything *is that is told to us. If you can’t be an expert in something (and nobody can be an expert in everything), then you’d need to cede to people who are experts in their own fields.

I understand and i respect your point of view on it. But i do take academical, scriptural, and logical necessities as of good importance in the direction of my beliefs. It’s because of these 3 that i see how well supported the existence and divinity of Jesus christ is. The 3 factors are so strong in support of him therefore i know that my faith isn’t blind.

However in terms of the Dogma concerning Satan it’s just not yet convincing. I can’t just believe random stories of demon encounters/possessions because that’s like believing the stories of people who claimed to see aliens, ufos, Shiva, Allah, and the Jesus of the Mormons. So to know and be confident, academics has to be factored in.

 

[fred_conty]

Please read the theory i gave about demons.

Lets go back to the scriptural basis and see how the existence of the Devil doesn’t fit Academical basis and theological logic.

**1. The Dogma of Satan being Former Angel that rebelled and was cast down with his other Angels. **

First. We have no OT scriptural basis for this, and the NT basis could indeed be metaphorical, depending on the actual definition of Satan and Demons. Given the translation of Satan to english opens up thought of a possible figurative being.

Second the logic. Now read this part. Suppose we don’t need a direct scriptural basis and we just believe the certain dogmas Protestant to Catholic church instated. Satan was a former Angel who SINNED and was casted down.Meaning to say, he SINNED in HEAVEN. So now lets go back to genesis, according to Genesis. Evil and every thing that comes with it (suffering, mortality, falling short of god) entered the world because of Adam and Eve doing the first sin. Hence sin caused the condition of the world we have now.

Ok, however we are told that Satan pre exists man and was an angel before who was booted out because of his iniquity. Now, logically SIN first came into existence in heaven… due to Satan and his # of angels so why is it that Heaven didn’t change like the world did when Man fell from the grace of God? That doesn’t make any sense because are to believe that God is a just god so gradually heaven should of had the same illness because of the fact that Sin also entered it through satan and it possibly out weighs the sin in genesis.

See the reason why Judaism never believed in Satan wasn’t just because it was absent in scripture but it actually suggests that Sin is possible to do in heaven. So if Satan, a HIGH angel in the midst of everlasting grace was able to build a seed of corruption (sin) then why is it impossible to think or wonder if any of the Angels or Saints we have read about are still up there? What would make us think that they never made one sin up there after these millions of years? If Satan could fall, why can’t they?

When you read that, you can actually think of absurd the thought of Angels (Michael, Raphael…) and Saints (Mary, Joseph, Apostles…) being booted out of heaven. Because we know it’s not just not theological logical for even a spec of corruption to accumulate in the area where God’s grace is fully present. It’s like suggesting that you can remain dry while standing in the ocean. God’s grace is just as consuming as water would be, making it impossible for iniquity to even cause a spec of stain. And if it were possible given that we choose to believe in Satan’s origin, then we are almost forced to believe the possibility of others in heaven (in this present day) to be prone to sinning as well. And we will have to wonder why Heaven didn’t become what the world did when Sin made it’s appearance.

I’m not going to rule out Satan’s existence at 100% yet. I still trying to search for reasonable information because right now, i am highly assuming that Satan was a metaphorical description of our animalistic nature, which is reverse to the morality law given in our souls.

Maybe this may help a bit. The church has already made a statement about the devil which seems to indicate that the devil does exist and that Adam and Eve were subected to his nasty ways. This is taken from Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of the Catholic Church.”

“Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil.” (De fide.)

In the order of creation, the angels were made before man. The angels were given a test and some failed. This is the act that decided their future happiness or misery. We know that St. Michael led the good angels in some sort of struggle against the revolting angels.
St. Michael won that contest of power and rejected the angels that lost down upon earth to roam it in some fashon. Those angels who stayed firm in their allegience to God were then granted the face to face vision with God, which is heaven. So angels did not experience heaven until after this battle of intellects and wills, and only St. Michael and his angels were granted the heavenly vision of God. The revolting angels were therefore never in heaven.

It was Satan, the leader of the rebellious angels, who tempted our first parents away from God with a lie.

I am relating all of this in order to clearify the origin of the Devil and his demons, and that he was never in heaven in the sense of having the beatific vision, or the face to face encounter with God. And since St. Michael and his angels were faithful, they were granted this face to face vision, live in heaven, and for them, it is no longer a possiblity to ever lose heaven, just as it is no longer a possiblity for a saint in heaven to lose heaven. So this means that there never can be sin or sinning in heaven.

So the idea of angels sinning in heaven, or any saint sinning in heaven, is not feasible.

So Satan according to our faith roams the earth, and this is what St. Peter says in his letter, that satan roams the earth seeking whom he may destroy. As the CCC 407 says,
“…By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free…”. Which means that the devil is real.

Just some thoughts about someone who wants to destroy you.

 

[fred_conty]

One more item of interest I would like to add.

The idea that the Devil (satan) and those in hell curse and blaspheme God was unsetting to me for some time, thinking that God is being degraded by their filthly and cruel minds.
This seemed to me to be inconceivable that God would allow such a thing.

Then I read a passage of St. Thomas Aquinas. And that ended my spiritual heartburn.

Just a thought.

 

[lakotak]

When the existence of Satan comes up, I always tend to wonder that if Satan and his demons are not real, then what was Jesus casting out of people in the the various Bible passages. Jesus spoke of the demonic and Hell so often. How could Jesus have cast out a metaphor? We would either have to say that Jesus was truly casting out demons or He was only casting out demons in a metaphorically sense. If the latter was the case, then, did a metaphor go into the pigs and throw them off of the cliff?

 

[fred_conty]

When the existence of Satan comes up, I always tend to wonder that if Satan and his demons are not real, then what was Jesus casting out of people in the the various Bible passages. Jesus spoke of the demonic and Hell so often. How could Jesus have cast out a metaphor? We would either have to say that Jesus was truly casting out demons or He was only casting out demons in a metaphorically sense. If the latter was the case, then, did a metaphor go into the pigs and throw them off of the cliff?

That is why the pig narrative is the most powerful of all the exorcisms that Jesus performed. The other exorcisms resulted only in a disturbed person at ease again, which could be argued that the person was mentally ill and was cured. But the pigs were a visible proof that demons were a reality and that it just wasn’t a person being cured of a mental handicap. And in addition, the gentile people who lived in that area came out and asked Jesus to vacate their land, because they didn’t want to lose any more pigs. That indeed was a big financial loss to them. Which give further proof that this was a real exorcism recognized by the pig farmers as being real.

 

[C_Del86]

When the existence of Satan comes up, I always tend to wonder that if Satan and his demons are not real, then what was Jesus casting out of people in the the various Bible passages. Jesus spoke of the demonic and Hell so often. How could Jesus have cast out a metaphor? We would either have to say that Jesus was truly casting out demons or He was only casting out demons in a metaphorically sense. If the latter was the case, then, did a metaphor go into the pigs and throw them off of the cliff?

As i said. I don’t deny the possible existence of Demons… but i am into a theory of them being spirits of the negative people who have passed not fallen angels.

 

[C_Del86]

Maybe this may help a bit. The church has already made a statement about the devil which seems to indicate that the devil does exist and that Adam and Eve were subected to his nasty ways. This is taken from Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of the Catholic Church.”

“Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil.” (De fide.)

In the order of creation, the angels were made before man. The angels were given a test and some failed. This is the act that decided their future happiness or misery. We know that St. Michael led the good angels in some sort of struggle against the revolting angels.
St. Michael won that contest of power and rejected the angels that lost down upon earth to roam it in some fashon. Those angels who stayed firm in their allegience to God were then granted the face to face vision with God, which is heaven. So angels did not experience heaven until after this battle of intellects and wills, and only St. Michael and his angels were granted the heavenly vision of God. The revolting angels were therefore never in heaven.

Yes but what was the source that the Church had that helped build this info? This is found no where in Scripture.

But still Sin entered first into Heaven before the World given in this story you gave. So That doesn’t answer the question of why is it fair that Heaven still remains perfect while Earth gets what it does now. Adam and Eve (every man basically) sinned from falling into temptation from Satan. Temptation is the what makes a being Sin… so if sin is caused due to the temptation then how did Satan sin in heaven; who tempted him?

There is just so many logic holes in the whole belief in Satan being an actual being (a fallen angel) and what is worse is that we don’t have any good scriptural basis of him as the king of evil.

[/QUOTE]