Satan (real or metaphorical)

[chimo]

fred conty;10224109:

Maybe this may help a bit. The church has already made a statement about the devil which seems to indicate that the devil does exist and that Adam and Eve were subected to his nasty ways. This is taken from Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of the Catholic Church.”

“Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil.” (De fide.)

In the order of creation, the angels were made before man. The angels were given a test and some failed. This is the act that decided their future happiness or misery. We know that St. Michael led the good angels in some sort of struggle against the revolting angels.
St. Michael won that contest of power and rejected the angels that lost down upon earth to roam it in some fashon. Those angels who stayed firm in their allegience to God were then granted the face to face vision with God, which is heaven. So angels did not experience heaven until after this battle of intellects and wills, and only St. Michael and his angels were granted the heavenly vision of God. The revolting angels were therefore never in heaven.

Yes but what was the source that the Church had that helped build this info? This is found no where in Scripture.

The basic understanding I was taught is the devil in under strained by God. He is giving the devil certain parameters which the devil cannot exceed. The only normal strain God allows is the activity whch the Church calls temptation. Temptation is actually good. It is never an evil by itself. It is true the devil was not tempted but you need not to be tempted to sin. Man would have sinned anyway with or without the devil. God allowed the temptation to Adam and Eve as He does for the rest of us for reasons known to Him. However with much understanding and wisdom we know more today.

It is to my knowledge God uses temptation to help us in our struggle to become united with God. As the scriptures say there is always a way out not only from the temptation but the sin as well. When the devil sinned he did so willfully and with full knowledge knowing the disasterious effect it will leave upon him. God did not create the angels so they can sinned. He created them differently than us so that they will not sin. But to do that He still needs their yes or their fiat. God never forces on anyone His will or love. But the devil foolishly disregarded this and he became an outcast forever. Man was created differently. Man has the potential to grow in Grace and to repent. As long as man lives in this life he has the possibility to repent.

But remember there are two kinds of sins. One is mortal and the other venial. One empties you of God and the other does not. Even if you committed a mortal sin that does not mean you are officially condemned. It means you are without God. The possibilty of Grace to re-enter is always there. The possibility of the Holy Spirit to return is always available. But to the angels this was not the case. Their sin was inexcusable. God grieved over their loss. An angel sins on his own and no one else helped them to do this. But our Lord Jesus did referred to Satan as a muderer from the beginning meaning this devil was the main instigator to misled the other angels. The scriptures also said his tail swept a third of the angels away from God meaning he tried to convince them not to choose God. It seemed their was trouble in Heaven even before there was anything on earth. But this devil cannot use his tail anymore for he is limited to the activity we call temptation. Even with this activity we can see the weakness of man everywhere for man needs the Grace of God to help him overcome what is going on inside him. But the Grace of God is stronger than what man can do to himself and when we arrive to His Feet or rather permit His Grace to enter Love can do His work.

 

[C_Del86]

C_Del86;10230531:

fred conty;10224109:

Maybe this may help a bit. The church has already made a statement about the devil which seems to indicate that the devil does exist and that Adam and Eve were subected to his nasty ways. This is taken from Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of the Catholic Church.”

“Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil.” (De fide.)

In the order of creation, the angels were made before man. The angels were given a test and some failed. This is the act that decided their future happiness or misery. We know that St. Michael led the good angels in some sort of struggle against the revolting angels.
St. Michael won that contest of power and rejected the angels that lost down upon earth to roam it in some fashon. Those angels who stayed firm in their allegience to God were then granted the face to face vision with God, which is heaven. So angels did not experience heaven until after this battle of intellects and wills, and only St. Michael and his angels were granted the heavenly vision of God. The revolting angels were therefore never in heaven.

The basic understanding I was taught is the devil in under strained by God. He is giving the devil certain parameters which the devil cannot exceed. The only normal strain God allows is the activity whch the Church calls temptation. Temptation is actually good. It is never an evil by itself. It is true the devil was not tempted but you need not to be tempted to sin. Man would have sinned anyway with or without the devil. God allowed the temptation to Adam and Eve as He does for the rest of us for reasons known to Him. However with much understanding and wisdom we know more today.

It is to my knowledge God uses temptation to help us in our struggle to become united with God. As the scriptures say there is always a way out not only from the temptation but the sin as well. When the devil sinned he did so willfully and with full knowledge knowing the disasterious effect it will leave upon him. God did not create the angels so they can sinned. He created them differently than us so that they will not sin. But to do that He still needs their yes or their fiat. God never forces on anyone His will or love. But the devil foolishly disregarded this and he became an outcast forever. Man was created differently. Man has the potential to grow in Grace and to repent. As long as man lives in this life he has the possibility to repent.

But remember there are two kinds of sins. One is mortal and the other venial. One empties you of God and the other does not. Even if you committed a mortal sin that does not mean you are officially condemned. It means you are without God. The possibilty of Grace to re-enter is always there. The possibility of the Holy Spirit to return is always available. But to the angels this was not the case. Their sin was inexcusable. God grieved over their loss. An angel sins on his own and no one else helped them to do this. But our Lord Jesus did referred to Satan as a muderer from the beginning meaning this devil was the main instigator to misled the other angels. The scriptures also said his tail swept a third of the angels away from God meaning he tried to convince them not to choose God. It seemed their was trouble in Heaven even before there was anything on earth. But this devil cannot use his tail anymore for he is limited to the activity we call temptation. Even with this activity we can see the weakness of man everywhere for man needs the Grace of God to help him overcome what is going on inside him. But the Grace of God is stronger than what man can do to himself and when we arrive to His Feet or rather permit His Grace to enter Love can do His work.

All respect but this doesn’t have anything to do with what i talked about. I asked how can heaven still remain the same if Sin entered it just like it entered here? If so Satan was a former angel was casted down.

Next since it is possible for beings to sin in heaven, do you think that it is also possible that the Angels like Michael may have sinned with in the last 2000-4000 years that passed?

 

[CrimsonThorn]

But still Sin entered first into Heaven before the World given in this story you gave. So That doesn’t answer the question of why is it fair that Heaven still remains perfect while Earth gets what it does now. Adam and Eve (every man basically) sinned from falling into temptation from Satan. Temptation is the what makes a being Sin… so if sin is caused due to the temptation then how did Satan sin in heaven; who tempted him?

As another poster mentioned earlier, the angels in the beginning were not automatically in Heaven nor were they given the Beatific Vision upfront. They went through a probation period in which they were tested. Since angels are outside of time and have superior intellect to humans, their choice is irrevocable. That means the fallen angels have already made their one, irrevocable choice and are now forever fallen and the good angels and saints and people who’ve made it into Heaven have also made their final, irrevocable choices and are now blessed with the Beatific Vision and will forever be in Heaven, their choices were irrevocable and they are forever in that state.

Temptation is the what makes a being Sin… so if sin is caused due to the temptation then how did Satan sin in heaven; who tempted him?

As I’ve recently learned myself, Satan isn’t the only one capable of tempting us. There is another spirit who is similar, because it is selfish and wishes only to do its own will; that is the Spirit of the Human Ego (which is what I think you’re also onto and aware of obivously, but you’re not recognizing the discernment between the two). We can tempt ourselves and fall into sin, I don’t think it was any different for the angels during their probation and quite possibly this is what makes Satan so evil… because he knew better with his vastly superior intellect and still didn’t care and still wished to put himself before God anyway.

 

[C_Del86]

As another poster mentioned earlier, the angels in the beginning were not automatically in Heaven nor were they given the Beatific Vision upfront. They went through a probation period in which they were tested. Since angels are outside of time and have superior intellect to humans, their choice is irrevocable. That means the fallen angels have already made their one, irrevocable choice and are now forever fallen and the good angels and saints and people who’ve made it into Heaven have also made their final, irrevocable choices and are now blessed with the Beatific Vision and will forever be in Heaven, their choices were irrevocable and they are forever in that state.

I understand that but where does this source come from? This is not found anywhere in Christianity, Judaism and not even Islam.

As I’ve recently learned myself, Satan isn’t the only one capable of tempting us. There is another spirit who is similar, because it is selfish and wishes only to do its own will; that is the Spirit of the Human Ego (which is what I think you’re also onto and aware of obivously, but you’re not recognizing the discernment between the two). We can tempt ourselves and fall into sin, I don’t think it was any different for the angels during their probation and quite possibly this is what makes Satan so evil… because he knew better with his vastly superior intellect and still didn’t care and still wished to put himself before God anyway.

And this is what i think Satan actually is. The “darkness” with in us… it is our Negative energy that slowly eats out our morality instincts leaving more of the natural instincts (animal instinct) with in the mind.

 

[lakotak]

**You seem to be a person who has not yet experienced the devil or thinks whatever experiences there is can be explained away. **The devil does not usually impose himself on people who thinks he doesn’t exist and for good reason. The devil does not want you to go further into the spiritual life that is to become a saint as we are all called to be so he lets you alone at least for awhile. People such as athiests and so on he dinifintely leaves alone for since they are not ruining his parade why would he ruin theirs.

You want a written expostion about the devil then look no further to the saints of God both Catholic and Orthodox. The devil oftens reveal himself to the saints. I have often experienced his presence. These experiences while worth noted can be disguised at first for he tends sometimes to be subtle and even hiding behind them. Then at times he can be more aggressive and come to you without warning. However if one is very gifted in the spiritual life one can recognize him for what these experiences are for St. Paul writes there is no temptation stronger than what you can handle.

To enter into this spiritual struggle or battle is the cornerstone of our Faith if you desire to be a saint. If you do not want to be a saint this rebellious angel will leave you alone and only engage to you the normal activity we call temptation. His agressiveness though towards those who wish to be saints are not entirely his own initiative. He still needs permission from God to do more. Even the scriptures says “Satan has asked permission to sift you as wheat!” This means the devil cannot go beyond the parameters God has set for him. The devil is always restrained by God only to what God will allow. So in effect God is always in control.

That also means you may not be in control. For the devil who uses a lot of disguises and illusions can decieve or trick you. Once he has you it is going to be difficult for you to engage from his clutches. However God has always a way out no matter what the devil can do and it is here we must address ourselves to if we want to grow to towards the sanctity for which we all called to. Read some of these stories from the saints. Read about Padre Pio and the relentent attacks the devil had imposed on this great saint or Seraphim of Russia’s 1000 straight days he had to do battle with the devils or the great saint fom France the Cure of Ars who had outwitted the devil on many occasions. Read also Maria Faustina’s great struggle with the devil as he personnaly came to call her down as he conversates with her on many occasions. This great saint of Poland had this experience when the devil came to her and said “Oh if only I had power over you!” On another occasion he exploded in the chapel while she was alone praying and took the flowers on the altar and smashed them on the floor. St. Maria Faustina did not know what to do or how to explain this to the sisters so she stepped out for awhile and then decided to come back and noticed the flower pot all neatly back on the altar without any damage.

Another angel, a good angel, put everything back together again. But notice how this devil operates. In secret and always one on one. He never imposes himself on to a group. He hates group therapy!

See the bolded. I was wondering the same thing. If C De186 ever really has experience of the demonic, I think he/she will no longer have any doubts as to the fact that the devil is real, not a metaphor. At one time I was very skeptical of the existence of the devil until I had encounters over a period of 3 to 4 year that could not be explained away. It strengthened my faith because I knew if the devil existed, then so did God and all of His Truth. I would suggest that maybe C De 186 pray to the Holy Spirit to open his/her mind as to the fact that this reality of the demonic really exists.

 

[fred_conty]

I understand that but where does this source come from? This is not found anywhere in Christianity, Judaism and not even Islam.

And this is what i think Satan actually is. The “darkness” with in us… it is our Negative energy that slowly eats out our morality instincts leaving more of the natural instincts (animal instinct) with in the mind.

Satan is not just a negative energy, rather satan is a real person, tho throughly evil.
Satan is an angel who sinned mortally against God. There were other angels also who followed the angel Satan against God.

Angels are real persons, whether evil or good. Those that are evil were named devils. Devils can and do make evil suggestions to us such as revenge, adultery, and so forth. That is what temptations are, evil suggestions, to do something evil. The demons can whisper so to speak into our ear to do something evil. We have to make a choice of whether to do evil that the demon suggests or not to do it. We are not compelled to do, nor or we compelled not to do it.

Another human person may also suggest you do something evil, rob a bank. You may decide to do it or you may decide not to do it. The choice is up to you. It is the same with the demon making evil suggestions to you, the choice is up to you, whether the source is demonic or human.

The devil and his followers the demons, are more than just negative energy, they are real persons, evil persons, thru and thru. And their delight comes from seeing us all in hell, both as a revenge on God whom they hate with all their might, but also to have further delight to be a part of our torture in hell to lord it over us and to masochistically see us in as much pain as possible.

Here are some doctrines cited by The Fundamentals of the Catholic Church by Ott.

God set a supernatural final end for the angels, the immediate vision of God, and endowed them with sanctifying grace in order that they might achieve this end. (Sent. Certa.)

The angels were subjected to a moral testing. (Sent. certa. as regards the fallen angels, Sent. communis as regards the good.)

The evil spirits (demons) were created good by God; they became evil through their own fault.
“Holy Writ teaches that a section of the angels had not withstood the test, and they fell into grevious sin and as punishment therefore were cast into hell. 2 Peter 2,4: ‘God spared not the angels that sinned, but delivered them, drawn down by infernal ropes to the lower hell, unto torments, to be reserved unto judgment.’ Jud.6: ‘The angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, He hadth reserved under darkness in everlasting chains, unto the judgment of the great day.’”

“As the blessedness of the good angels is of eternal duration, Mt.18,10,so the punishment of the bad angels is also without end. Mt.25,41: ‘Depart from me you crused into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.’”

'The good angels who passed the test, entered as a reward therefore into the blessedness of heaven, Mt.18,10, Tob.12,15, Heb.12,22, Apoc.5,11/7,11, while the bad angels who did not pass the test, fell under the ban of eternal damnation 2Peter 2,4, Jud.6.

Just some thoughts.

 

[C_Del86]

See the bolded. I was wondering the same thing. If C De186 ever really has experience of the demonic, I think he/she will no longer have any doubts as to the fact that the devil is real, not a metaphor. At one time I was very skeptical of the existence of the devil until I had encounters over a period of 3 to 4 year that could not be explained away. It strengthened my faith because I knew if the devil existed, then so did God and all of His Truth. I would suggest that maybe C De 186 pray to the Holy Spirit to open his/her mind as to the fact that this reality of the demonic really exists.

I am not ruling out the existence of demons, as i said. Would you guys please read before judging what i am saying. I already gave a description of what Demons possibly are, just. Not fallen angels.

@fred, i appreciate the reply but it still lead to same holes addressed in the first post.
All the descriptions of angels leaves the question, why hasn’t Heaven changed as the Earth did since also came from the angels who rebelled up there? And through all this, do you think there is a chance that Michael and the rest of the good angels are still up there in heaven after the 5,000+ years that has past since it was possible for someone as high as Lucifer was to sin in the same area (heaven)?

 

[thistle]

Modern Catholic Dictionary:

DEMON. Originally a spirit between the gods and men. In the New Testament a demon is the same as an evil spirit, which may be translated as “devil.” It consequently means a malevolent, invisible being, which the pre-Christian word “demon” did not imply. (Etym. Latin daemon, evil spirit; Greek daimōn, a god, genius, spirit.)