M
Mystic_Warrior
Guest
Frankly, it’s not worth my time nor is it my intention to prove anything to someone who isn’t open to listen to people’s experiences. Insert head in sand. It’s already halfway there.
- Status
S
Snow
Guest
My questions were rhetorical. I knew you couldn’t site any evidence for SRA… though I did enjoy your claim that unless I accept some sort of underground, internationally organized, inter-generational network of Satanic conspirators ritually abusing and murdering children - (or kidnapping of farmers by space aliens, or bigfoot, or whatever) that my head is in the sand.
Indicators that SRA is bogus:
"3. LACK OF SURVIVORS’ DOCUMENTATION PRIOR TO 1980
The term “SRA survivor” is used to describe adults who have memories of SRA which happened. Usually, they had not been aware of these experiences until recovered memories are developed during therapy. There are no records of SRA survivors having gone public in the 20th century prior to the publishing of Michelle Remembers.
If SRA has been practiced for many generations (as the promoters of SRA believe) then someone should have come forward before 1980 to reveal their abuse." (RT)
R
ralphinal
Guest
Maybe not. How many men were sexually abused over the last 200 years? and how many have come forward? The wounds from abuse can stay burried for a long time. When there is a social stigma attached, it may be longer.
I am not saying anything for or against either side. I am saying that the absence of proof is not always proof of absence.
S
seeker_of_God
Guest
I’m honestly not sure if I believe this, though after reading this article, I believe it is possible. The history I know of the JWS is accurately recounted on this site, so I think there’s a possibility the rest is true, too.
However, I can say that I was a JW for about two years, and that there was never the slightest hint of anything like what is mentioned in this thread.
They did really mess me up, though. I had the most horrible guilt when I was trying to leave, that it took me a year to get over, and still sometimes haunts me. They were really nice, but only as long as I did everything I was supposed to do, going to all of their meetings and conventions, going door-to-door, etc. They told me school wasn’t important, and not to worry about going to college, because armageddon was coming very soon.
The two people who I would have willingly called my spiritual mentors and second parents, never contacted me again after I left.
Anyway, yes it was really messed up, but I’m not so sure about the satanic thing.
But, ravyn, I’m really concerned about some of your views. In that thread you linked to, you deny original sin, show an obvious attraction for the occult, and post a story about a Pagan couple refuting a JW by saying God was part of a pantheon of gods, but that He created His own little experiment in the Garden of Eden. I know that the occult has a lot of attraction, because I was in it for probably about 4 years myself, and kept going back to it every time I got frustrated with trying to find the true Church. However, it’s definitely very dangerous, and is imprudent to go against the magisterium of the Church.
On the issue of satanic rituals: I don’t know if such actually happens or not, but the priest who teaches my theology class has recounted many examples of people stealing things from churches for use in satanic rituals, as they apparently use many of the things the Catholic Mass uses, but perverted for a different purpose. I have no reason to disbelieve him.
However, I can say that I was a JW for about two years, and that there was never the slightest hint of anything like what is mentioned in this thread.
They did really mess me up, though. I had the most horrible guilt when I was trying to leave, that it took me a year to get over, and still sometimes haunts me. They were really nice, but only as long as I did everything I was supposed to do, going to all of their meetings and conventions, going door-to-door, etc. They told me school wasn’t important, and not to worry about going to college, because armageddon was coming very soon.
The two people who I would have willingly called my spiritual mentors and second parents, never contacted me again after I left.
Anyway, yes it was really messed up, but I’m not so sure about the satanic thing.
But, ravyn, I’m really concerned about some of your views. In that thread you linked to, you deny original sin, show an obvious attraction for the occult, and post a story about a Pagan couple refuting a JW by saying God was part of a pantheon of gods, but that He created His own little experiment in the Garden of Eden. I know that the occult has a lot of attraction, because I was in it for probably about 4 years myself, and kept going back to it every time I got frustrated with trying to find the true Church. However, it’s definitely very dangerous, and is imprudent to go against the magisterium of the Church.
On the issue of satanic rituals: I don’t know if such actually happens or not, but the priest who teaches my theology class has recounted many examples of people stealing things from churches for use in satanic rituals, as they apparently use many of the things the Catholic Mass uses, but perverted for a different purpose. I have no reason to disbelieve him.
E
excaliber
Guest
I was born and raised Jw…and that website dose not seem accurate.
C.T.Russel in the minds of Jw’s and the one in that website is completely different.
C.T.Russel in the minds of Jw’s and the one in that website is completely different.
O
OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Did you convert to Catholicism?
E
excaliber
Guest
My conversion continues…Im in RCIA. The hardest thing is trying to understand how to view the Orthodox.
It is my oppinion that some ex jw’s
Over do things a little. I don’t think an active Jw will ever look at that website.
When a person is IDENTIFIED as an exjw…no Jw will have anything to do with them.
This website screems exjw…so what is the point of it?
R
Ruthie
Guest
Can I say that I agree with both Ravyn and Snow?
I tend to have a narrow definition of SRA, that agrees with Snow’s. The bloody sacrifices, the sexual abuse. The books Snow mentions are fiction - I’ve read “the Satan Seller” - but there may indeed be people who act out what they have read there.
While Ravyn’s experiences may not match that narrow definition - thank God! - it certainly matches a wider one. I believe what happened to her was real, was ritualistic, and was certainly abuse, and happened because those in power over her were seeking occult knowledge. If the desire to seek occult knowledge comes from Satan, then it was SRA.
God bless you, Ravyn. I applaud your courage.
Ruthie
I tend to have a narrow definition of SRA, that agrees with Snow’s. The bloody sacrifices, the sexual abuse. The books Snow mentions are fiction - I’ve read “the Satan Seller” - but there may indeed be people who act out what they have read there.
While Ravyn’s experiences may not match that narrow definition - thank God! - it certainly matches a wider one. I believe what happened to her was real, was ritualistic, and was certainly abuse, and happened because those in power over her were seeking occult knowledge. If the desire to seek occult knowledge comes from Satan, then it was SRA.
God bless you, Ravyn. I applaud your courage.
Ruthie
Z
Zooey
Guest
I am with Ruthie here. I have known Ravyn here for long enough to know that she is **very **reliable, & that she has been through a lot in re: JWs.
While I also have a narrow definition of SRA, I have no doubt that Ravyn has been terribly, terrible hurt by people in the JWs. I think she shows great courage in telling her story.
I would just add, that any time that children are abused, Satan is at the root of things…and
delighted to see it happening.
E
excaliber
Guest
I am not questioning anyones character…however.I am with Ruthie here. I have known Ravyn here for long enough to know that she is **very **reliable, & that she has been through a lot in re: JWs.
While I also have a narrow definition of SRA, I have no doubt that Ravyn has been terribly, terrible hurt by people in the JWs. I think she shows great courage in telling her story.
I would just add, that any time that children are abused, Satan is at the root of things…and
I hear that raven say’s she was brought to bethel where individuals dressed in robes and performed rituals.
Well I worked at bethel for 3 years not to long ago…and if I steped foot out of my room with a robe, in one day the whole complex would know. There is not much privacy there.
A
Auriel
Guest
I missed this, was the show archived?
And Ravyn, God Bless you. I believe you and there are thousands of people out there, from all religions and walks of life, who went through this and believe you too.
There are a lot of people who will try to cast doubt on you and attack, just ignore them. Some do this with an agenda.
There are close to 5 million diagnosed cases in the U.S. alone at the moment. God only knows how many undiagnosed there are out there. It continues even now because no one wants to talk about it, some that do are ridiculed, and it stays hidden in the shadows.
Some nasty people have invented a “syndrome” to discredit the victims. They say people who buy into this are buying into a conspiracy theory. Yet they want everyone to believe that the close to 5 million victims and their shrinks have gotten together and conspired to defraud insurance companies and the courts.
You scream it out to the world. God will protect you. He said what is hidden will be laid bare. If I were the abusers I would be scared. Payday one day.
My heroes are the women and men who were victims and who have the courage to stand knowing how they will be seen. But yet they stand, standing for the truth and hopefully protecting the children who are at risk now.
And for all the people who claim they have never seen any sign of this, of course you haven’t! They do not advertise it for God’s sake.
I admire all those with the courage to stand. Ever Hear of Joan Baez? She was before my time, I recently discovered her. She has a song out called “Play Me Backwards”.
She introduced this at a concert, saying her song was about ritual abuse. She talked about how many people don’t believe children when they tell about ritual abuse or sexual abuse. And then she said two words,** “I believe.”** I leave you with the words to her song. God Bless you and I hope you are doing well.
**You don’t have to play me backwards
To get the meaning of my verse
You don’t have to die and go to hell
To feel the devil’s curse
Well I thought my life was a photograph
On the family Christmas card
Kids all dressed in buttons and bows
And lined up in the yard
Were the golden days of childhood
So lyrical and warm
Or did the picture start to fade
On the day that I was born
I’ve seen them light the candles
I’ve heard them bang the drum
And I’ve cried Mama, I’m cold as ice!
And I got no place to run
Let the night begin there’s a pop of skin
And the sudden rush of scarlet
There’s a little boy riding on a goat’s head
And a little girl playing the harlot
There’s a sacrifice in an empty church
Of sweet li’l baby Rose
And a man in a mask from Mexico
Is peeling off my clothes
I’ve seen them light the candles
I’ve heard them bang the drum
And I’ve cried Mama, I’m cold as ice!
And I got no place to run
So I’m paying for protection
Smoking out the truth
Chasing recollections
Nailing down the proof
You don’t have to play me backwards
To get the meaning of my verse
You don’t have to die and go to hell
To feel the devil’s curse
I’ll stand before your altar
And tell everything I know
I’ve come to claim my childhood
At the chapel of baby Rose
I’ve seen them light the candles
I’ve heard them bang the drum
I’ve seen them light the candles
I’ve heard them bang the drum…
**
E
excaliber
Guest
I would have to hear what exactly happened in this PARTICULAR case.
We are talking about a group that while there interpretations are not correct, they have attempted to eliminate any hint of paganism by not celebrating holidays, working against itself by performing those rituals in a more blatant form.
(I am talking about chaneling spirits for bible interpretations)
They could have made things up if they wanted to, they did not need to perform rituals to get bible interpretations.
Ray Franz wrote a book exposing
just about everything he saw goinng on, but he did not say anything about rituals and he was involved in writing “Aid to bible understanding” this was a large publication…if they did not need
rituals for this large publication why would it be needed for a smaller one?
I saw a lot at bethel…but never a trace of rituals.
However something could have happpend…its not impossible…just unlikely,because a person wanting to perform rituals among Jehovahs witnesses
would have a VERY hard time finding people to participate in it.
It would be the same as telling A Catholic that an alien ship crashed at the vatican,and the Church converted and baptised aliens, Im not trying to be funny but if you say something like that obviously there needs to be proof, to add weight to that claim.
I had stuff happen to me at bethel
and knowone believed me.
R
Ravyn_Guiliani
Guest
Dear Excalibur,
Only those ones involved at Bethel know about it. And what better method to hide such a huge secret than to hide it in plain sight—to pretend to be the polar opposite than what you are? I will never have “two witnesses” to prove my story.
If it helps you, then use it. If it doesn’t then just let it go. It will help someone else.
You don’t have to believe me, but we both know what the WTBS is capable of. Ever ask yourself WHY they can cause so much damage? I mean people who have been involved in only their “daytime” activities and know nothing of anything else are scarred for life–why? Because of the stuff going on that only the old men know about.
Thanks for the support Auriel. Some of us life makes sisters. And yes, the phone call is archived–it was the call of Nov 22.
Ravyn
Only those ones involved at Bethel know about it. And what better method to hide such a huge secret than to hide it in plain sight—to pretend to be the polar opposite than what you are? I will never have “two witnesses” to prove my story.
If it helps you, then use it. If it doesn’t then just let it go. It will help someone else.
You don’t have to believe me, but we both know what the WTBS is capable of. Ever ask yourself WHY they can cause so much damage? I mean people who have been involved in only their “daytime” activities and know nothing of anything else are scarred for life–why? Because of the stuff going on that only the old men know about.
Thanks for the support Auriel. Some of us life makes sisters. And yes, the phone call is archived–it was the call of Nov 22.
Ravyn
A
Auriel
Guest
Well said.
And people who do these things are also counting on the fact that it sounds so bizarre that if one does speak out no one will believe them. They are well versed in mind games.
**
“The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe we are doing it.” ~Joseph Mengele~**
I am glad you moved far away. These people, no matter what mask they hide behind, are all about the blood, or I should say the bloodlines.
Listening now, I am sending that link to a few of my friends as well.
sixscreensofthewatchtower.com/conferencecall-11-22-08.html
E
excaliber
Guest
I have a LOT of family who are Jw.
If this is true it can help me get them out.
I would need proof of some sort…otherwise you well know people will think Im crazy.
Any proof, or others coming forward would be great.
S
Snow
Guest
A
Auriel
Guest
Gee Snow,
Running out of articles found at religioustolerance.org to copy and paste?
I normally ignore these types of posts, but maybe you do not know any better. You know, if you dug in and did your own research you might be surprised.
BTW, the article you copied and pasted was written back in May of 1995. You must have posted a later version, yours has been redacted. The original article stated that portions of it was, by permission, extracted from information sheets provided by the Wiccan Information Network’s Ontario Coordinator.
It was seriously flawed to begin with. But that is what I expect from that organization. I noticed they have removed many links and tried to clean up their act after their Scientology snafu. They do not allow someone who graduated from lets say, a bible college for fear it would be too biased, yet Bruce A. Robinson, the main writer along with co-writer Al Buttnor did several pieces on Scientology, they have since removed some of the clues, you cannot even get them on google archive now or wayback machine.
It cast them in a bad light when it came out that that Buttnor is, or was still at least in 2006, spokesman for the Church of Scientology in Canada and Director of Public Affairs and Human Rights of the Church of Scientology of Toronto.
I am too tired right now but there have been lawsuits won, even a few members of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, (a syndrome in theory only, not listed in the DSM-IV or recognized in the Scientific Community) have been sued and their victims have won.
A
Auriel
Guest
Actually I have this article handy, raven1.net/ra1.htm this was a Precedent setting case won on Feb. 22, 1999. You can read the whole article yourself, but here is the Courts Memorandum.
**In the United States District Court
For the District of Nebraska
Paul A. Bonacci, Plaintiff 4:CV91-3037
vs
Lawrence E. King, Defendant Memorandum of Decision
On February 27, 1998, I found that default judgment should be
entered against the defendant Lawrence E. King in favor of the
plaintiff, Paul A. Bonacci. A trial on the issue of the damages due
the plaintiff by that defendant was had on February 5, 1999.
Two counts are alleged against the defendant: King in the
complaint. Count V alleges a conspiracy with public officers to
deprive the plaintiff of his civil rights, designed to continue to
subject the plaintiff to emotional abuse and to prevent him from
informing authorities of criminal conduct. Count VIII charges
battery, false imprisonment, infliction of emotional distress,
negligence and conspiracy to deprive the plaintiff of civil rights.
Between December 1980 and 1988, the complaint alleges, the
defendant King continually subjected the plaintiff to repeated
sexual assaults, false imprisonments, infliction of extreme
emotional distress, organized and directed satanic rituals, forced
the plaintiff to “scavenge” for children to be a part of the
defendant King’s sexual abuse and pornography ring, forced the
plaintiff to engage in numerous masochistic orgies with other minor
children. The defendant King’s default has made those allegations
true against him. The issue now is the relief to be granted
monetarily.
The now uncontradicted evidence is that the plaintiff has suffered
much. He has suffered burns, broken fingers, beating of the head
and face and other indignities by the wrongful actions of the
defendant King. In addition to the misery of going through the
experiences just related over a period of eight years, the
plaintiff has suffered the lingering results to the present time.
He is a victim of multiple personality disorder, involving as many
as fourteen distinct personalities aside from his primary
personality. He has given up a desired military career and received
threats on his life. He suffers from sleeplessness, has bad dreams,
has difficulty in holding a job, is fearful that others are
following him, fears getting killed, has depressing flashbacks, and
is verbally violent on occasion, all in connection with the
multiple personality disorder and caused by the wrongful activities
of the defendant King.
Almost certainly the defendant King has little remaining financial
resources, but a fair judgment to compensate the plaintiff is
necessary. For the sixteen years since the abuse of the plaintiff
began I conclude that a fair compensation for the damages he has
suffered is $800,000. A punitive damage award also is justified,
but the amount needs to be limited because of the small effect that
such a judgment would have on the defendant King, given his
financial condition and presence in prison. I deem the punitive
damage award of $200,000 to be adequate. Dated February 19, 1999.
By the Court /s/Warren Urborn United States Senior District Judge**
BTW, The False Memory Syndrome Foundation and Religious Tolerance have known each other for quite some time. They are as thick as thieves and have links to each others site and quote each other in their articles and newsletters. The FMSF is cited many times as one of their sources,
Tomorrow I will list all the original members, the complaints, and the charges against them.
Except for this one, Ralph Underwager, he is the disgraced co-founder, Lutheran pastor, and friends of the Freyd couple. He was forced to step down after his interview with PAIDIKA, nostatusquo.com/ACLU/NudistHallofShame/Underwager2.html a pedophile magazine overseas:
He is a piece of work, said this to a group of British reporters in 1994:
**In the United States District Court
For the District of Nebraska
Paul A. Bonacci, Plaintiff 4:CV91-3037
vs
Lawrence E. King, Defendant Memorandum of Decision
On February 27, 1998, I found that default judgment should be
entered against the defendant Lawrence E. King in favor of the
plaintiff, Paul A. Bonacci. A trial on the issue of the damages due
the plaintiff by that defendant was had on February 5, 1999.
Two counts are alleged against the defendant: King in the
complaint. Count V alleges a conspiracy with public officers to
deprive the plaintiff of his civil rights, designed to continue to
subject the plaintiff to emotional abuse and to prevent him from
informing authorities of criminal conduct. Count VIII charges
battery, false imprisonment, infliction of emotional distress,
negligence and conspiracy to deprive the plaintiff of civil rights.
Between December 1980 and 1988, the complaint alleges, the
defendant King continually subjected the plaintiff to repeated
sexual assaults, false imprisonments, infliction of extreme
emotional distress, organized and directed satanic rituals, forced
the plaintiff to “scavenge” for children to be a part of the
defendant King’s sexual abuse and pornography ring, forced the
plaintiff to engage in numerous masochistic orgies with other minor
children. The defendant King’s default has made those allegations
true against him. The issue now is the relief to be granted
monetarily.
The now uncontradicted evidence is that the plaintiff has suffered
much. He has suffered burns, broken fingers, beating of the head
and face and other indignities by the wrongful actions of the
defendant King. In addition to the misery of going through the
experiences just related over a period of eight years, the
plaintiff has suffered the lingering results to the present time.
He is a victim of multiple personality disorder, involving as many
as fourteen distinct personalities aside from his primary
personality. He has given up a desired military career and received
threats on his life. He suffers from sleeplessness, has bad dreams,
has difficulty in holding a job, is fearful that others are
following him, fears getting killed, has depressing flashbacks, and
is verbally violent on occasion, all in connection with the
multiple personality disorder and caused by the wrongful activities
of the defendant King.
Almost certainly the defendant King has little remaining financial
resources, but a fair judgment to compensate the plaintiff is
necessary. For the sixteen years since the abuse of the plaintiff
began I conclude that a fair compensation for the damages he has
suffered is $800,000. A punitive damage award also is justified,
but the amount needs to be limited because of the small effect that
such a judgment would have on the defendant King, given his
financial condition and presence in prison. I deem the punitive
damage award of $200,000 to be adequate. Dated February 19, 1999.
By the Court /s/Warren Urborn United States Senior District Judge**
BTW, The False Memory Syndrome Foundation and Religious Tolerance have known each other for quite some time. They are as thick as thieves and have links to each others site and quote each other in their articles and newsletters. The FMSF is cited many times as one of their sources,
Tomorrow I will list all the original members, the complaints, and the charges against them.
Except for this one, Ralph Underwager, he is the disgraced co-founder, Lutheran pastor, and friends of the Freyd couple. He was forced to step down after his interview with PAIDIKA, nostatusquo.com/ACLU/NudistHallofShame/Underwager2.html a pedophile magazine overseas:
He received scathing remarks as an expert witness in this archived Journal of American Judges Association, go down to page 14. aja.ncsc.dni.us/courtrv/cr35-1/cr35-1.pdf
He is a piece of work, said this to a group of British reporters in 1994:
I will link some of the actual Court documents tomorrow for a few of the other cases and the legal issues of the remaining co-founders, (married couple, formerly step siblings, who sexually abused his daughter) and advisers.
E
excaliber
Guest
I don’t doubt that something happened to raven…the question is what and by who?
But Jehovahs witnesses putting people in pits with dead snakes and dressing up in robes at bethel…lets just be realistic…
Any Jw reading about it will think someone made it up just to get at the organization…many exjw’s will want to be open minded, but also will find it hard to belive.
Proof of Jehovahs witness involvement is a must here.
Whatever happened, hopefully talking about it helps raven heal.
S
survive
Guest
The further into the past and into secretive groups one goes, the more murky and perplexing everything becomes. I have childhood-connected mental imagery I have no idea what to make of; it was decades ago, in a world of secrets and lies, and experiments, and doubletalk, and is overlaid with layers of later developments in society and in myself, and it’s full of contradictions.
What I can know is that at least a few disturbing people were around me when I was tiny, and I was affected by it. Who did what and what I got from a later suggestion, and what from a monster movie or somewhere else, I may never find out.
Ravyn spent her early years among people who outright reject the opinion of the whole outside world as applying to them and won’t even take part in political life. If secrets exist in such a world it’s not surprising at all. It would surprise me if the whole ‘80’s-‘90’s McMartin case kind of scene turned out to be a fact after all. I did some research into occult crime a few years back and found that there have been a few documented cases of people making it look as if they were part of something ancient and vast, doing occultlike things while hurting children and adults. But they seemed to be isolated, drug-related or some individuals’ attempts to intimidate victims by appearing to be connected to a conspiracy. The victims’ experience was real and scary and they may remember it all their lives as proof of giant conspiracies.
What I can know is that at least a few disturbing people were around me when I was tiny, and I was affected by it. Who did what and what I got from a later suggestion, and what from a monster movie or somewhere else, I may never find out.
Ravyn spent her early years among people who outright reject the opinion of the whole outside world as applying to them and won’t even take part in political life. If secrets exist in such a world it’s not surprising at all. It would surprise me if the whole ‘80’s-‘90’s McMartin case kind of scene turned out to be a fact after all. I did some research into occult crime a few years back and found that there have been a few documented cases of people making it look as if they were part of something ancient and vast, doing occultlike things while hurting children and adults. But they seemed to be isolated, drug-related or some individuals’ attempts to intimidate victims by appearing to be connected to a conspiracy. The victims’ experience was real and scary and they may remember it all their lives as proof of giant conspiracies.
- Status