Saturday evening mass time

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I wonder: does it mean ‘evening’ in the Vatican? Therefore, any time that would be after 4:00 Vatican time, would be legitimate?

As I said, an area Cathedral has one at 2:30 PM.
 
Vico said:
… the celebration of the occurring weekday in accord with the norms set forth in the General Instructions of the Roman Missal and the Liturgy of the Hours.
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That’s why I think vespere falls within the LOTH “clock” rather than any English definition of “evening.”

Fr. David makes a good point with his “post meridiem” (or absence thereof) argument.
 
Phemie said:
I don’t see how that changes anything.

Yes, the bishop got to decide at which time the Mass in his diocese started. But since it says “only in the evening” and “in the evening” had already been defined as “not before 4 p.m.” I don’t see how, it could be interpreted to mean a bishop could opt for 2:00 or 3:00 p.m. He could certainly set the time for 5 or 6 or 7 p.m.
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Evening hour was not defined, but an earliest time was given previously. That was replaced as it states “All things to the contrary notwithstanding.”

If actual amount of light is of any significance today, as it was originally, then the time varies, for example ninth hour: Dec 21 Stokholm - 8:45am Sunrise + 6 hours daylight x 9/12 = 8:45am + 4:30 hours = 1:15pm.

The three canon law commentaries that specifically support earlier evening times are for more Northern European jurisdictions:

Spain: twelve (por la tarde)
Great Britain and Ireland: midday
Italy: 2 pm (ab hora secunda post meridiem)
 
Vico said:
The three canon law commentaries that specifically support earlier evening times are for more Northern European jurisdictions:

Spain: twelve (por la tarde)
Great Britain and Ireland: midday
Italy: 2 pm (ab hora secunda post meridiem)
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When did Spain and Italy become part of northern Europe?
 
Vico said:
The norm changed after that. …

All concessions and contrary customs notwithstanding, when celebrated on Saturday this Mass may be celebrated only in the evening, at times determined by the local Ordinary.

In these cases the Mass celebrated is that assigned in the calendar to Sunday, the homily and the prayer of the faithful are not to be omitted.

What has been said above is equally valid for the Mass on holy days of obligation which for the same reason has been transferred to the preceding evening.
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Yes. The texts from the Church say evening. They do not say “anytime on Saturday” but specifically “evening.” In fact, it says “only in the evening.”

Canon 1248 still hasn’t changed. If it’s not an evening Mass then it doesn’t meet the requirements of the canon.
 
The code of canon law uses words that come from the ancient Roman reckoning of the hours (which had exactly 12 day hours and 12 night hours which were shorter or longer throughout the year), which have become words to describe the Christian “canonical hours”—which are familiar to most as the names used in the Liturgy of the Hours. But these do not correspond to a modern day clock of 24 fixed-length hours.

On the one hand, there is no way to directly reconcile these 2 systems; they simply cannot match. Even if we follow the sun, then we’ve effectively abandoned the clock. We cannot schedule parish Masses that way today.

Here’t the thing.

In the Latin vocabulary, vespere means “evening” and meridiem means “mid-day” or “noon” (as we now use it, not the 9th hour).

Evening and Noon are two entirely different times of day. It doesn’t matter if one is speaking in English or in Latin. Noon is not evening. Vespere is not meridiem. Vespere is not noon.

There are several problems with the “evening begins at noon” position:
  1. The canon does not say post-meridiem. It says vespere. The canon means what it says.
  2. If the legislator had actually intended to say post-meridiem, then he would have used that word in the code. This is the point where I just want to scream “fer cryin out loud, why can’t some people see what is clearly staring them right in the face?!!!” If St John Paul II wanted to say “anytime after noon” then he would have said it. Plain and simple. The indisputable fact is that he did not say “anytime after noon.” It would have been very easy for the Holy Father to use “post meridiem” in canon 1248. It’s painfully obvious that if he wanted to say “after Noon” he would have caused the canon to read “post meridiem.” This is what we call a “no brainer.”
  3. Most of the arguments put forth to support “evening begins at noon” are based on how the code had been translated into vernacular languages. The translators used words that can mean “anytime after noon” in their own languages. This falls flat on its face because it is not the vernacular translations of the canons that matter. They are only authoritative in the original Latin.
3b some of the commentary is even based on an American slang use of the word “evening.” 🤷 What can I say?
  1. It ignores 70 years of very solid liturgical legislation (much of it bearing the personal signatures of popes) that do clearly define 4 PM as the earliest an evening Mass can be celebrated and still be called an “evening Mass.” This is precedent and next to the actual legislation itself, precedent (especially papal precedent) carries the highest authority. “Custom is the best interpreter of the law.”
  2. Commentaries are not authoritative. Sometimes people seem to think that “if it’s in some commentary somewhere, then it must be true.” They are good resources, don’t get me wrong. However, commentaries do not make canon law.
5b Not all commentaries agree that “evening begins at noon.” I submit that if it were true that “evening begins at noon” then there would be near universal acceptance of this. There is plenty of canon law commentary and expert opinion that completely disagrees with the notion that “evening begins at noon.”
  1. We must remember the historical basis for the whole notion that an evening Mass on Saturday is actually the Sunday Mass. It’s based on the biblical understanding of the day that was carried over into the Christian era—the next day begins when the previous day ends. The biblical day ends/begins at sunset. This is not some arbitrary decision made by the Church. The foundation is biblical. The biblical day does not begin at Noon. Even if we make accommodations (and I think we must) to use the clock rather than the sun to determine a time for evening, there’s no disputing that mid-day and evening are still two entirely different times of day.
  2. What does the Church mean by vespere? Let’s look at the description in the Liturgy of the Hours:
  3. When evening approaches and the day is already far spent, evening prayer is celebrated in order that “we may give thanks for what has been given us, or what we have done well, during the day.” We also recall the redemption through the prayer we send up “like incense in the Lord’s sight,” and in which “the raising up of our hands” becomes “an evening sacrifice.” This sacrifice “may also be interpreted more spiritually as the true evening sacrifice that our Savior the Lord entrusted to the apostles at supper on the evening when he instituted the sacred mysteries of the Church or of the evening sacrifice of the next day, the sacrifice, that is, which, raising his hands, he offered to the Father at the end of the ages for the salvation of the whole world.” Again, in order to fix our hope on the light that knows no setting, “we pray and make petition for the light to come down on us anew; we implore the coming of Christ who will bring the grace of eternal light.” Finally, at this hour we join with the Churches of the East in calling upon the “joy-giving light of that holy glory, born of the immortal, heavenly Father, the holy and blessed Jesus Christ; now that we have come to the setting of the sun and have seen the evening star, we sing in praise of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. . . .” [ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwgilh.htm#Ch II-II ](http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwgilh.htm#Ch II-II )
    Now, does that sound like “noon” to anyone? Seriously folks, is noon “the day is far spent” and therefore we light the evening lamps? At Noon, do we say “now that we have come to the setting of the sun…”? Do we? Does that sound like a description of “noon” to anyone here??? If so, I’d like to know how.
 
FrDavid96 said:
Yes. The texts from the Church say evening. They do not say “anytime on Saturday” but specifically “evening.” In fact, it says “only in the evening.”

Canon 1248 still hasn’t changed. If it’s not an evening Mass then it doesn’t meet the requirements of the canon.
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I add, from Blessed Pope John Paul II (2003):
"Just as *Lauds *is prayed at daybreak, so *Vespers *is prayed close to sunset, at the hour when, in the temple of Jerusalem, the burnt offering was made with incense. At that hour, after his death on the Cross, Jesus was lying in the tomb, having offered himself to the Father for the salvation of the world.

The various Churches, following their respective traditions, organized the Divine Office in accordance with their own rites."
vatican.va/holy_father/jo…031015_en.html

So we see that the ordinary may assign a time in the evening which may be near sunset, and we know that in various latitudes the sunset is at different times, for example:

Stockholm, Sweden 59.3 N, 2:48 pm
London, England 51.5 N, 3:54 pm
 
ProVobis said:
So how does the LOTH work in these locations?
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Guidance is taken from CDW, CIC, and GILH.

CDW addressed the obligation of praying the Liturgy of the Hours PDF notitiae.ipsissima-verba.org/pdf/notitiae-2001-190-194.pdf.

CIC:Can. 276 §1 Clerics have a special obligation to seek holiness in their lives, because they are consecrated to God by a new title through the reception of orders, and are stewards of the mysteries of God in the service of His people. §2 In order that they can pursue this perfection:
…
3° priests, and deacons aspiring to the priesthood, are obliged to carry out the liturgy of the hours daily, in accordance with their own approved liturgical books; permanent deacons are to recite that part of it determined by the Episcopal Conference;

And* General Instruction of the Liturgy of the Hours*:29. Hence bishops, priests, and other sacred ministers, who have received from the Church the mandate to celebrate the liturgy of the hours (see no. 17), should recite the full sequence of hours each day, observing as far as possible the true time of day.
…39. When evening approaches and the day is already far spent, evening prayer is celebrated in order that “we may give thanks for what has been given us, or what we have done well, during the day.” [5] We also recall the redemption through the prayer we send up “like incense in the Lord’s sight,” and in which “the raising up of our hands” becomes “an evening sacrifice.” [6] This sacrifice “may also be interpreted more spiritually as the true evening sacrifice that our Savior the Lord entrusted to the apostles at supper on the evening when he instituted the sacred mysteries of the Church or of the evening sacrifice of the next day, the sacrifice, that is, which, raising his hands, he offered to the Father at the end of the ages for the salvation of the whole world.” [7] Again, in order to fix our hope on the light that knows no setting, “we pray and make petition for the light to come down on us anew; we implore the coming of Christ who will bring the grace of eternal light.” [8] Finally, at this hour we join with the Churches of the East in calling upon the “joy-giving light of that holy glory, born of the immortal, heavenly Father, the holy and blessed Jesus Christ; now that we have come to the setting of the sun and have seen the evening star, we sing in praise of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. . . .”
 
When I have gone to First Saturday, the priest makes a point to people that the 12 noon Saturday Mass does not satisfy the Sunday Obligation, and we are either to attend a Saturday Evening Mass that starts at 4pm or later or something on Sunday itself. With my current work schedule, the 5pm Mass on Saturday works best for me. My diocese does offer a 5:30pm Mass on Sunday evening at the Cathedral which I have gone to a few times.
 
I have no problem with people up in the Arctic circle (or down to 60N or whatever) saying that an evening Mass can start at a time before 4 pm local time, in the winter. But, the OP is in South Florida. So…

Dan
 
Vico said:
I add, from Blessed Pope John Paul II (2003):
"Just as *Lauds *is prayed at daybreak, so *Vespers *is prayed close to sunset, at the hour when, in the temple of Jerusalem, the burnt offering was made with incense. At that hour, after his death on the Cross, Jesus was lying in the tomb, having offered himself to the Father for the salvation of the world.

The various Churches, following their respective traditions, organized the Divine Office in accordance with their own rites."
vatican.va/holy_father/jo…031015_en.html

So we see that the ordinary may assign a time in the evening which may be near sunset, and we know that in various latitudes the sunset is at different times, for example:

Stockholm, Sweden 59.3 N, 2:48 pm
London, England 51.5 N, 3:54 pm
Click to expand...
And I have no issue with places where an evening Mass is celebrated at (or reasonably near) actual sunset. I’ve said as much on CAF threads, so I’m not just making that up for the moment.

It still does not change the fact that Noon (aka mid-day) are two different times of day.

Really, does the quote you provided from the LOTH describing evening “When evening approaches and the day is already far spent,…” sound like “noon” to you?

Does it sound like “noon” to anyone?

Before electricity, did Christians say “it’s noon, time to light the lamps”? (and for many, that was not all that long ago)
 
Vico said:
When evening approaches and the day is already far spent, evening prayer is celebrated in order that “we may give thanks for what has been given us, or what we have done well, during the day.”
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Thank you. So that gives us the meaning of “evening” in our context.
 
FrDavid96 said:
And I have no issue with places where an evening Mass is celebrated at (or reasonably near) actual sunset. I’ve said as much on CAF threads, so I’m not just making that up for the moment.

It still does not change the fact that Noon (aka mid-day) are two different times of day.

Really, does the quote you provided from the LOTH describing evening “When evening approaches and the day is already far spent,…” sound like “noon” to you?

Does it sound like “noon” to anyone?

Before electricity, did Christians say “it’s noon, time to light the lamps”? (and for many, that was not all that long ago)
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The eleventh hour would be about 4:40pm on that shortest day where I live and I would choose to say Vespers at that time on that day if I could choose it. I think of noon as 12:00 and pm as after that point, but recognize that midday is later than 12:00 because the Sun is at meridian later than 12:00 where I live. (I live in the South where evening means afternoon so I think it is not such a good term to use.)
 
ProVobis said:
Thank you. So that gives us the meaning of “evening” in our context.
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There is an interesting practice in the Roman Missal. There are (since MR 2003) eight proper Vigil Masses, seven are optional. The optional vigil Mass is used on the evening of the day before the Solemnity, either before or after First Vespers (Evening Prayer I) of the Solemnity. Required is Easter Vigil but it may be only after nightfall.

Vigil Masses (Ordinary Form) in the Roman Calendar:
  • Nativity of the Lord *
  • Easter (on Holy Saturday after nightfall)
  • Epiphany (MR 3rd ed. - 2002) **
  • Ascension (MR 3rd ed. - 2002) **
  • Pentecost *
  • Nativity of St. John the Baptist *
  • Saints Peter and Paul *
  • Assumption *
  • Optional evening Mass, since 1969
  • Optional evening Mass, since 2002
 
I wish they had a Saturday evening Mass many years ago when I first married – a Fireman and of course, if his shift fell on Sunday he had to work and get to Mass --also he took the car so I had to walk to Church – then we had 3 children and of course, I wouldn’t take the youngest to Mass with me-- I think sometimes my Mom came and babysat while I went to Mass.
As for my husband he had to find a Church close to the Firehouse an get to Mass there before his shift started at 8:00 A.M. – at times it was pretty difficult but I don’t think either one of us ever missed Mass.
 
Fr. David,

The reason you are finding yourself in disagreement with the canonists is that they are approaching the issue within a broader context with more careful distinctions. Most important for us, IMHO, is the need to keep separate the notions of, on the one hand, the precept to attend Mass on Sundays (and select solemnities) and, on the other, regulations governing the ordinary course of which liturgy ought to be celebrated at a given day/time.

For instance, the 4pm terminus post quem for evening Masses is a helpful bit of legislation for determining when evening begins, but its original purpose is to govern Masses later than (and not before) the then-permissible timeframe for Mass on a liturgical day. In a separate distinction, the Catholic Eucharistic liturgy used (Latin, Maronite, Byzantine; votive or ritual Mass) is irrelevant for fulfilling my obligation, which demands only that I attend Mass - not Mass with the right readings, etc. So we needn’t concern ourselves with the proper time for First Vespers, and thus the beginning of the liturgical day, because our obligation is not to attend Mass on the liturgical day of Sunday/solemnity but at any time on the calendar day (midnight to midnight) or the evening preceding. This time period doesn’t always correspond exactly to the liturgical day; Saturday or Sunday evening may belong to a different solemnity, but I can still satisfy my Sunday obligation at those times beyond the bounds of liturgical Sunday.

Which brings us to one of the strongest pieces of reasoning deployed by advocates of a 12 or 2pm start time for which Masses fulfill the obligation, namely, that permissions were not given simply to fulfill the obligation on Saturday evening, but to “anticipate” the Mass of the day in order to allow people more scope to fulfill their obligation (with a specific eye, in the original experimental permission, toward travelers going out of town for the weekend). Now consider that if evening Masses are allowed everyday (which, by this point, a bishop had been able to allow for over a decade), and Sunday begins at First Vespers Saturday evening, then no added permission would have been required to celebrate the Mass of Sunday beginning at 4pm. But a favor was indeed granted to allow priests to say Mass of Sunday *before *the proper liturgical time, a Mass that fulfilled the Sunday obligation. This favor - at least as regards the fulfillment of the obligation - was in this reading later made permanent and universal through incorporation into the CIC 1983, and ought to be read in its originally extensive sense.

For my own part, while I am not sure the argument is wholly persuasive it is at the very least plausible, for the crux of the matter is not what the term “vespere” means but instead what the supreme legislator intended to do in modifying the timeframe for fulfilling the obligation (to wit, to give more space for this than previously allowed).
 
The latest Jimmy Akin blog post I could find basically says that the time at which “evening” starts with regards to liturgical observance has not been defined by Rome.

jimmyakin.org/2004/03/the_liturgical_.html

As nearly as I can tell, “evening” starts no earlier than noon, but other than that it starts when the bishop of your diocese says it starts. In the US, this is usually deemed to be 4 pm, but I have heard of exceptions being granted in cases of liturgical necessity: for instance, in order to offer enough Masses for the faithful to fulfill their obligations without requiring priests to offer an excessive number of Masses in a single calendar day. (I cannot cite a source, but I believe that number to be ideally no more than twice, and not more than three times except in a truly extreme case.)
 
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