D
dianaiad
Guest
That’s their problem. Not ours.
Our responsibility is not to destroy their faith, but to show them ours. I have found that people are not stupid; they will figure it out.
- Status
Our responsibility is not to destroy their faith, but to show them ours. I have found that people are not stupid; they will figure it out.
J
Jay53
Guest
Yes, if they are given a chance to “figure it out”. If they are denied the right to question their own faith and see the reality of what it is vs. what they would like it to be and examine other faiths and the reality of what they are vs. what they have been taught about other such faiths, they will not have a chance to do so. They will forever be mired in the poor example that Muhammad has set for them.
I agree that the truths of Islam and Muhammad’s life should be expressed in as charitable a way as possible since he is a person Muslims hold in high esteem, but, at the same time, there is still the ugly reality that Muhammad sexually gratified himself with a 6 year old girl (“thighing”) and that he approved of adultery under the guise of “owner’s rights” of slaves. (Although that is a topic for another thread.) There is no way to sugar coat that to make it palatable.
D
dianaiad
Guest
Then why address it? Those who are not allowed to "question their own faith,’ what makes you think that they would appreciate being told that their prophet was a pedophile, etc.? Why would they listen?
How would they hear about it anyway?
The only thing that people do who go on about Mohammad being a pedophile is…pat each other on the back in congratulation that THEY are not Muslim. I don’t think that you are going to get any Muslims to change because of your interpretation of their faith, or the history thereof.
Or, to trot out an old cliche’ that I invented: Nobody has ever changed religions because his own has been sufficiently insulted.
A
adstrinity
Guest
Because I hate to see Mohammad called a pedophile, I decided to search it. “Mohammad pedophile” in the Yahoo! search engine brought this site up first:
"From Khomeini’s book, “Tahrirolvasyleh”, fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990 :
A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence throughout her life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister.
…] It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband’s house rather than her father’s home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven."
homa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=89&Itemid=56
"From Khomeini’s book, “Tahrirolvasyleh”, fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990 :
A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence throughout her life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister.
…] It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband’s house rather than her father’s home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven."
homa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=89&Itemid=56
J
Jay53
Guest
Then why address it? Those who are not allowed to "question their own faith,’ what makes you think that they would appreciate being told that their prophet was a pedophile, etc.? Why would they listen?
Why not address it? If you don’t address it, do you think it will go away and not affect anyone? Just look at what is happening to this 10 year old girl. Do you think she deserves this misery just because this man is following Muhammad’s example and no one wants to address it?
How would they hear about it anyway?
I have no idea what you mean by this question? Hear about what?
The only thing that people do who go on about Mohammad being a pedophile is…pat each other on the back in congratulation that THEY are not Muslim. I don’t think that you are going to get any Muslims to change because of your interpretation of their faith, or the history thereof.
Or, to trot out an old cliche’ that I invented: Nobody has ever changed religions because his own has been sufficiently insulted.
Possibly. Possibly not.The more intelligent ones would, however, investigate the allegations and possibly see the truth. And I don’t think the intent with this story is to help Muslims change religion as it is to protect the innocent little girls traumatized by the actions of those emulating Muhammad. They are the ones who deserve to be protected. Or should we just let them be molested because we don’t want to address it and if they’re smart enough they’ll “figure it out”?
My issue is not about insulting religion. You are right that tactics such as that would not help anyone see the Truth. It most likely would just make someone defensive. But that doesn’t mean that one needs to sugarcoat the truth or avoid it just because it is unpleasant.
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
I just lost my lunch.
D
dianaiad
Guest
Here’s hoping that you simply misplaced your sandwich, rather than announcing an episode of emesis.
This verse…and instruction, is very bad. It does not reflect well on modern day Islam.
How about these, instead? Numbers 31:17-18, Deuteronomy 2:34, or Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (my personal favorite…way to get a wife, guys, cheap…)
I am not excusing those verses from Muslim sources that seem to allow sex with infants. I AM saying that…be careful.
J
jediliz
Guest
S
Steven_John
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by dianaiad View Post
You need to stop judging people of other ages by the standards of this one.
After all have met many who say “i am Christian, we are not under the law”
Also I am often told to get the most out of scripture i am to take account of the culture of the day.
So who was the man in the old testament that was given a young woman from the tribe to keep warm?
Lets say that as it is “and that Truth is the same now, tomorrow and forever” go to mass and refuse entry to all women without head cover.
That’s how it was then so why not now?
I could go on, TRUTH sell your land / investments and take it to your church elders to distribute as needed.
Is the earth really flat? what are we to do to those who say otherwise?
If i am a Catholic and your a Protestant can i have you tried and killed? Heck we both can claim “as Christians, we have Divine Truth as our guide” so we both have truth but yet we are opposed. I guess this had better continue this hatred as “Truth” is timeless.
Ant we all including myself cherry pickers, some people like to stick the boot into other religions.
What do our self indulgent posts do to change this girls life to day?
Yah i have great sensibility and justice, even he unbelievers have that look at the laws of your country.
Now look at the laws and guidance of your religion.
Take it to My Father (your God) in prayer,all of your Prophets (pbut) told you this.
The end time war that has begun to pick up pace is not of this world (this world only has signs) for My Fathers kingdom is not like this.
those who follow Jesus will love their enemy’s?
so that My Father will be done.
Originally Posted by dianaiad View Post
You need to stop judging people of other ages by the standards of this one.
Well from this at least we should not judge Christians involved in the Spanish Inquisition. But by these words you still have permission to kick Islam.
After all have met many who say “i am Christian, we are not under the law”
Also I am often told to get the most out of scripture i am to take account of the culture of the day.
So who was the man in the old testament that was given a young woman from the tribe to keep warm?
Lets say that as it is “and that Truth is the same now, tomorrow and forever” go to mass and refuse entry to all women without head cover.
That’s how it was then so why not now?
I could go on, TRUTH sell your land / investments and take it to your church elders to distribute as needed.
Is the earth really flat? what are we to do to those who say otherwise?
If i am a Catholic and your a Protestant can i have you tried and killed? Heck we both can claim “as Christians, we have Divine Truth as our guide” so we both have truth but yet we are opposed. I guess this had better continue this hatred as “Truth” is timeless.
Ant we all including myself cherry pickers, some people like to stick the boot into other religions.
What do our self indulgent posts do to change this girls life to day?
Yah i have great sensibility and justice, even he unbelievers have that look at the laws of your country.
Now look at the laws and guidance of your religion.
Take it to My Father (your God) in prayer,all of your Prophets (pbut) told you this.
The end time war that has begun to pick up pace is not of this world (this world only has signs) for My Fathers kingdom is not like this.
those who follow Jesus will love their enemy’s?
so that My Father will be done.
S
Steven_John
Guest
In most religions it is not allowed to bare false witness, i assume this is for you. (i know that this is not so for all Muslims)
Could you please sight your authentic source or if this is from your connection to a spirit in prayer state that.
IMO Fruits of the spirit witness to the soul.
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Ah yes, the non-sequitor, my personal favorite logical fallacy.
Of course it is easy to find fault in something when we do not understand the context. Numbers 31:17-18, for example, deals with the conflict between the Israelites and the Midianites. Deuteronomy 2:34 with the war with Sihon - both cultures were openly hostile to the Israelites (the latter wouldn’t even let them through their country, and openly confronted the Lord). Deuteronomy 22:28-29 deals with the rape of women, and forces men to take responsibility for what they have done and keep the woman from being isolated from society - it is not a “wife getting” scheme. In fact, the previous passages condemn men who rape betrothed women to a death sentence, and specifically say the girl shouldn’t be punished.
But of course, again, none of this has to do with Mohammad’s marriage to 6-year old Aisha, hence the non-sequitor (as well as tu quoque) nature of the argument. It avoids everything that has been discussed in response to the previous arguments.
E
elwill
Guest
you are right jay , we hold mohammed (pbuh) to be the best example for all time , but the age of his wifes isn’t what we seek , we seek the treatment examples
i said before that being our prophet is the best example for us dosn’t mean that we should to use camels in our travels
and if muslims seek the age of his wives , it dose mean that muslims should to marry older women not younger girls as for most of his wives were older
beside they should also wait for 40 years without marriage to follow exactly our prophet example !!!
E
elwill
Guest
this is the teaching of shiaa , not the teaching of islam nor the teaching of mohammed (pbuh) nor the teaching of sunni muslims (90% of muslims in the world )
H
huan_m
Guest
Jesus never married and willingly “died” at cross at the age of 30+… Do you like to do the same in order to follow him truly?
S
Steven_John
Guest
Dont get connection to quote.
for followers of Yahooshua (pbwh) he is the teacher, he never taught for all men to not marry and taught on marriage.
Should we willingly die for our brothers if YHWH wills.
pass over Yahooshua (pbwh) in basic words says all that is about to happen i do for you now do this in memory of me.
So to follow him truly is to follow the teaching.
D
dianaiad
Guest
I do love a good student who gets the point. Bingo.
Perhaps you did not get the point, after all.
I’ll belabor it. The verses quoted to us from the Q’uran were…taken out of the context in which they occurred. Just as you have, here, explained the OT verses and set them back INTO context, (though simply identifying the Midianites as the enemy does not, after all, explain the wholesale slaughter of women and children very well…you need to do better than that) so too have the Imams taken those verses about Mohammad and explained them to the Muslim faithful, so that, in context, those verses make sense to the believers.
The point, then, is that when we take an isolated incident out of the past, and present it within the framework of today’s culture and more’s, we are also committing a fallacy. We are also not helping Muslims in any way. Of course, if the goal is simply to pat each other on the back because we have had the great good fortune not to have been born Muslim, (shrug) I suppose that’s OK. Kind of a waste of time, though, I think.
D
dianaiad
Guest
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Again with ad hominems and sarcasm. This is not argumentation.
No one has quoted the Koran, at least within the context of Aisha and Mohammad’s sexual relations with her - people have quoted only the hadith. The only Koranic passages referred to were by Jay53, and only to show correctly that Muslims believe Mohammad to be a perfect individual. If one wishes to defend a faith, it is best to understand the differences between their scriptural and traditional texts. Of course, if I’ve missed any Koranic verses cited, feel free to bring them up and I’ll respond to them.
Again, there is no such thing as a “framework of today’s culture.” John Wesley was looked upon as a strange individual because he opposed slavery at a time when most people supported it, but he was not strange in the eyes of God. Billy Graham was seen as strange when he refused to segregate his church, but he was not strange in the eyes of God. Christ told His apostles: “If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own…you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you” (John 15:19; NIV). The world is the only place where post-modernism and moral relativity thrive - not with God. Or do we simply say that Billy Graham was strange because society accepted segregation, and that John Wesley was strange because people accepted the permanent indenturement of an entire people?
The fact is that there is nothing wrong with taking a man claimed to be a pure prophet by a false religion and showing that, based on a subjective dream, he married a 6-year old, then had sex with her at age 9, with no evidence presented to confirm that she was yet on her cycle (although there is evidence Mohammad simply waited to have sex with grown up wives, who no doubt were already ON their cycle). This is not simply an isolated incident out of the past, this is the leader and founder of a world religion who is claimed to be an example for all. This is why comments were made as they were.
A
adstrinity
Guest
Thank you for the clarification!!
S
Steven_John
Guest
I have been checking it appears to me so far that this is an un supportable claim.
All supporting docs in articles are of considered persons in authority claiming that Mahomed (pbuh) did this act.
I can find nothing to truly support their claim.
Can any one else?
If no one can, i would suggest that if the claimant is believes that YHWH calls us not to bear false witness they need to rethink and restate their claim.
Here in Australia we would also consider it important to make an apology as some may have been offended by a falsified claim.
I see this as a thread that will really show our true colours, some may run from their words, hoping the thread goes away, some may dig a deeper hole bringing in other claims.
Their may be a man humbled b4 God and man admitting error as we all can error.
Who is with truth and those who want to be in the arms of satan.
- Status