Saudi Child Bride Turned Back Over to 80-Year-Old Husband

[Jay53]

I have been checking it appears to me so far that this is an un supportable claim.

All supporting docs in articles are of considered persons in authority claiming that Mahomed (pbuh) did this act.

I can find nothing to truly support their claim.

Can any one else?

If no one can, i would suggest that if the claimant is believes that YHWH calls us not to bear false witness they need to rethink and restate their claim.

Here in Australia we would also consider it important to make an apology as some may have been offended by a falsified claim.

I see this as a thread that will really show our true colours, some may run from their words, hoping the thread goes away, some may dig a deeper hole bringing in other claims.

Their may be a man humbled b4 God and man admitting error as we all can error.
Who is with truth and those who want to be in the arms of satan.

Muhammad would thigh with baby Aisha

The permanent committee for the scientific research and fatwahs (religious decrees) reviewed the question presented to the grand mufti Abu Abdullah Muhammad al-Shemary, the question forwarded to the committee by the grand scholar of the committee with reference number 1809 issued on 3/8/1421 (Islamic calendar).

After the committee studied the issue, they gave the following reply:

As for the prophet, peace and prayer of Allah be upon him, thighing his fiancée Aisha. She was six years of age and he could not have intercourse with her due to her small age. That is why [the prophet] peace and prayer of Allah be upon him placed his [male] member between her thighs and massaged it softly, as the apostle of Allah had control of his [male] member not like other believers… islam-watch.org/Larry/Muhammad-in-Islamic-writings-sex-life-sexual-abuse-pedophilia.htm

This is the source that I gave you when you PM’d me. If you are looking for an apology, then I suggest you contact grand mufti Abu Abdullah Muhammad al-Shemary and the committee that issued their reply as stated above. Please let us know how that goes.

If you would like to me to say I *think *Muhammad “thighed” Aisha based on the above claim of an Islamic grand mufti and other evidence of Muhammad’s immorality (such as his approval of adultery under the guise of owner’s rights of slaves (those that your right hand possesses) which may or may not have included prepubescent girls), then I will be happy to do so. Oh, I guess I just did!

 

[Steven_John]

If you would like to me to say **I *think ***Muhammad “thighed” Aisha based on the above claim of an Islamic grand mufti and other evidence of Muhammad’s immorality (such as his approval of adultery under the guise of owner’s rights of slaves (those that your right hand possesses) which may or may not have included prepubescent girls), then I will be happy to do so. Oh, I guess I just did!

Praise be to YHWH you have changed your statement into a truth, it is just what you think. May YHWH bless you for your honesty.

If you are looking for an apology, then I suggest you contact grand mufti Abu Abdullah Muhammad al-Shemary and the committee that issued their reply as stated above. Please let us know how that goes

I feel that this is a bit of a dig at me, I tried Brother to treat you with kindness and respect that is why i pmed and not posted.

no i wont let you know how it goes bluntly you did his bidding, you made his words as your own.

For what you stated here is on you, and i only suggested you apologised from my culture.

This mufti owes me no apology as he did not speak here.
His false statements YHWH will be just over.

I guess maybe he owes you one for leading you astray but then how many of his teachings do you follow or have you just grabbed this one to support your agenda.

If you do not follow his other teachings you doing his bidding is a trick of satan.
You are responsible for this because you went away from right guidance of the holy spirit.

Your agenda now damaged by untruth from your mouth.

If this agenda came from the holy spirit i can assure you it did not instruct you to take your thinking and assert it as truth because a man you don’t trust said it.

I pray YHWH bless and guide you Brother, that you be honest and next time accept the love of a Brother reaching to you in kindness, i am no more than you.

 

[Steven_John]

Muhammad’s immorality (such as his approval of adultery under the guise of owner’s rights of slaves (those that your right hand possesses)

This is a very dangerous thing to assert Muhammad (pbuh) is immoral because of.

Abraham (pbuh) was close to YHWH, he had rights over his slaves as his wife had over hers.

As i guess many other old testament figures did.

 

[Jay53]

This is a very dangerous thing to assert Muhammad (pbuh) is immoral because of.

Abraham (pbuh) was close to YHWH, he had rights over his slaves as his wife had over hers.

As i guess many other old testament figures did.

So what? They were not perfect. Only Jesus Christ is perfect. Adultery is adultery.

 

[Jay53]

Praise be to YHWH you have changed your statement into a truth, it is just what you think. May YHWH bless you for your honesty.

I feel that this is a bit of a dig at me, I tried Brother to treat you with kindness and respect that is why i pmed and not posted.

This was not a dig at you at all. I think I have equally treated you with kindness and respect.

no i wont let you know how it goes bluntly you did his bidding, you made his words as your own.

If you see it that way. Perhaps I should have cited my source in my original post on this topic, but seeing as how this has been discussed previously many times on these forums I thought many of the posters here were already aware of this issue. My apologies for not having provided the source earlier. And quite honestly, the only ones who know for sure whether Muhammad committed these acts are God, Muhammad and Aisha. I will certainly leaves God’s judgment of them to Him.

At the same time, if Muslim men are violating little girls and marrying them off before they are mature enough to handle it in emulation of Muhammad - then that is an issue that needs to be addressed.

For what you stated here is on you, and i only suggested you apologised from my culture.

This mufti owes me no apology as he did not speak here.
His false statements YHWH will be just over.

How do you know that they are false?

I guess maybe he owes you one for leading you astray but then how many of his teachings do you follow or have you just grabbed this one to support your agenda.

If you do not follow his other teachings you doing his bidding is a trick of satan.
You are responsible for this because you went away from right guidance of the holy spirit.

I beg to differ. I have not been led astray. I will follow Jesus Christ forever and will praise His name for all eternity!!

Your agenda now damaged by untruth from your mouth.

What agenda?

If this agenda came from the holy spirit i can assure you it did not instruct you to take your thinking and assert it as truth because a man you don’t trust said it.

Again, what agenda?

I pray YHWH bless and guide you Brother, that you be honest and next time accept the love of a Brother reaching to you in kindness, i am no more than you.

May God bless you too.

 

[Jay53]

I would furthermore like to point out the the reply I quoted was issued not by one man, but by a committee (a committee for scientific research and fatwahs, no less) - indicating that there were several Islamic scholars who reviewed this issue.

Perhaps those that seek further information on this topic would be better served by going to that committee to obtain their sources in issuing their reply.

The permanent committee for the scientific research and fatwahs (religious decrees) reviewed the question presented to the grand mufti Abu Abdullah Muhammad al-Shemary, the question forwarded to the committee by the grand scholar of the committee …

And for your further perusal:

The Permanent Committee for Islaamic Research and Fataawa

A Royal Decree, number 137/1 and dated 08/07/1391 A.H. / (29/08/1971 C.E.) was issued for the establishment of the Council of Senior Scholars. Whereby, under section four it mentions:
“The Permanent Committee has been left the task of selecting its members from amongst the members of the Council (of Senior Scholars) in accordance with the Royal Decree. Its aim is to prepare research papers ready for discussion amongst the Council (of Senior Scholars), and issue fataawa on individual issues. This is by responding to the fatwa-seeking public in areas of 'aqeedah, 'ibaadah and social issues. It will be called: The Permanent Committee for Islaamic Research and Fataawa (al-Lajnah ad-Daa.imah lil-Buhooth al-'Ilmiyyah wal-Iftaa.)”

Further, it is mentioned in section eight of the attachment to the Royal Decree:
“No fatwa will be issued by the Permanent Committee until the majority of its members have absolute agreement concerning it. Such, that the number (of scholars) studying each fatwa is no less then three members (of the Committee). And if there exists an equal voice (differing in opinion), then the decision of the Head (of the Committee) will take precedence.”

-snip-

Noting therefore, the path which the Committee has taken is selecting the opinion(s) which are** based upon daleel (proof) in addition to the daleel from the Sunnah being from authentic ahaadeeth.** (emphasis mine)
fatwa-online.com/scholarsbiographies/15thcentury/permanentcommittee.htm

 

[elwill]

I would furthermore like to point out the the reply I quoted was issued not by one man, but by a committee (a committee for scientific research and fatwahs, no less) - indicating that there were several Islamic scholars who reviewed this issue.

Perhaps those that seek further information on this topic would be better served by going to that committee to obtain their sources in issuing their reply.

And for your further perusal:

the sources you used is actualy anti_islamic site
islam-watch isn’t islamic site to use it as a proofs against muslims

if you wanna to make rational discussion . so start with islamic sources please

thanx

 

[Jay53]

the sources you used is actualy anti_islamic site
islam-watch isn’t islamic site to use it as a proofs against muslims

if you wanna to make rational discussion . so start with islamic sources please

thanx

Are you saying that “The Permanent Committee for Islaamic Research and Fataawa” is actually anti-Islamic? I will look at their site better, but I really didn’t get that impression. Just because islam-watch may not be pro-Islam does not mean that they do not have valid information.

And, btw, I was having a rational discussion until I was accused of “bearing false witness” because I failed to include my source in my post.

Edit:
I just briefly looked at the site (The Permanent Committee’s site) again and I honestly don’t see anything anti-Islamic. Here is a snippet of the biography of the current head of the committee:

Shaykh 'Abdul-'Azeez Ibn 'Abdullaah Aal ash-Shaykh

He is the noble Shaykh 'Abdul-'Azeez Ibn 'Abdullaah Ibn Muhammad Ibn 'Abdul-Lateef Aal ash-Shaykh. He was born in Riyadh in 1362 A.H./1941 C.E., and since his birth he suffered from weak eyesight, until he lost his sight altogether in 1381 A.H./1960 C.E.

He began seeking knowledge by studying the Noble Qur.aan at Masjid Ahmad Ibn Sanaan, and memorised the Qur.aan when he was 12 years old. He then sought knowledge from some of the scholars in their gatherings. In 1375 A.H./1954 C.E. he transferred to the Imaam ad-Da’wah Institute where he graduated from the Faculty of Sharee’ah in 1383 A.H./1962 C.E., and he used to attend some of the gatherings of the scholars in their masaajid fatwa-online.com/scholarsbiographies/15thcentury/abdulazeez.htm

.

Now, I don’t know if I can search their site to find when the fatwa/ruling in question was issued, but when I have time I will give it a gander.

 

[Jay53]

This is allegedly the fatwa in question in Arabic, but since I don’t speak/read Arabic I obviously cannot be sure without a translation. I’ve asked Sam to translate, but if there is anyone else here who is able to, please feel free to do so.

Thank you.

islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=A&Id=3907&Option=FatwaId&x=46&y=11

 

[jakasaki]

I have been checking it appears to me so far that this is an un supportable claim.

All supporting docs in articles are of considered persons in authority claiming that Mahomed (pbuh) did this act.

I can find nothing to truly support their claim.

Can any one else?

If no one can, i would suggest that if the claimant is believes that YHWH calls us not to bear false witness they need to rethink and restate their claim.

Here in Australia we would also consider it important to make an apology as some may have been offended by a falsified claim.

some may run from their words, hoping the thread goes away, some may dig a deeper hole bringing in other claims.

Their may be a man humbled b4 God and man admitting error as we all can error.
Who is with truth and those who want to be in the arms of satan.

This “thighing” issue or whatever you want to call it, based on your search you claim that mohamad did this act but **YOU **cannot support their claim.

Steven John;5636742]I have been checking it appears to me so far that this is an un supportable claim.

All supporting docs in articles are of considered persons in authority claiming that Mahomed (pbuh) did this act.

I can find nothing to truly support their claim.

Can any one else?

The majority of internet sites have the ability and function to email them.

Since **you **cannot support their claim, ask them about the “claim” they are making.

Whether you believe or not islamic experts believe it to be:

Fatwa No. : 92051
Fatwa Title : Meaning of Mufaakhathah
Fatwa Date : 05 Rabee’ Al-Aakhir 1427 / 04-05-2006
Question

Asalamualaykumwarahmatullahiwabarakatahu can you explain to me the thing called “thighing” also pronounced "mufa

Fatwa

All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.

The term Mufaakhathah means to have foreplay with the wife in between her thighs. It is reported in one narration that when the Prophet wanted to enjoy one of his wives who was in menstruation, he would put a piece of cloth on her vagina (i.e. cover it). [Ibn Maajah].

The author of Faydh Al-Qadeer interpreted the expression 'if he wanted to enjoy to mean having all permissible foreplay but avoiding the vagina [or the anus], like in between her thighs (i.e. Mufaakhathah).

Allaah Knows best.

Fatwa answered by: The Fatwa Center at Islamweb

islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=92051&Option=FatwaId

In this fatwa a person asked someone in islamic authority and got the answer.

There are also hadiths from Aishia about her having to clean “semen” off the prophets clothes.

If one is wearing clothes while releasing his “manhood” then one can suggest he was “thighing” Aishia.

Bukhari

Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to wash the traces of Janaba (semen) from the clothes of the Prophet and he used to go for prayers while traces of water were still on it (water spots were still visible).
(Book #4, Hadith #229)

Narrated Sulaiman bin Yasar:
I asked 'Aisha about the clothes soiled with semen. She replied, "I used to wash it off the clothes of Allah’s Apostle and he would go for the prayer while water spots were still visible. "
(Book #4, Hadith #231)

Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun:
I heard Sulaiman bin Yasar talking about the clothes soiled with semen. He said that 'Aisha had said, "I used to wash it off the clothes of Allah’s Apostle and he would go for the prayers while water spots were still visible on them.
(Book #4, Hadith #232)

Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to wash the semen off the clothes of the Prophet and even then I used to notice one or more spots on them.
(Book #4, Hadith #233)

The fact to my original post/story still stands. Here is an 80 year old prune who married a child of 10.

The prophet of islam, a so called prophet of allah, married little Aishia when he was 53 when he already had a few wives.

If you don’t have a problem with that, well then that’s your business. A fact is a fact.

I see this as a thread that will really show our true colours,

Matthew 7

**19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

20 So by their fruits you will know them. **

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PVG.HTM

By mohamads “fruits” we do know him.

 

[jakasaki]

This is a very dangerous thing to assert Muhammad (pbuh) is immoral because of.

Abraham (pbuh) was close to YHWH, he had rights over his slaves as his wife had over hers.

As i guess many other old testament figures did.

It is a dangerous thing to put and compaire the self proclaimed prophet of islam, mohamad, in the same light as Abraham.

 

[josie_L]

Excuse me.

a pedophile is a person who has a sexual preference for preadolescent children. Mohammad married Aisha when she was six. He didn’t consummate the marriage until she was nine, and whether you like the idea or not, if he were a classic pedophile, he wouldn’t have waited that long. The odds are that he waited until her first period, and that made her, in that culture at that time, able to have sex with her husband.

If he were in THIS culture, TODAY, I would agree with you one hundred percent. In fact, his actions for that time have an eww factor that I’m not comfortable with. However, he wasn’t a pedophile.

You need to stop judging people of other ages by the standards of this one.

One other thing: simply because I will not use inaccurate terminology, or accuse someone of something he is NOT guilty of, that does not mean that I am supporting his belief system or his ideals. It simply means that I believe the truth of any belief system is sufficient to discredit it, if it is false. If someone has to lie, exaggerate or misrepresent it in order to defeat it, that raises a HUGE red flag for me.

In other words, bub, lay off. By wasting time on this, you are providing Muslims with ammunition to say 'they are lying about us!!!" and NOT examining the beliefs they truly hold. What, are you afraid that there might actually be something to them that would catch the unwary eye? Are you afraid that the truth won’t do the job?

I’m sorry. This sort of thing drives me* nuts***.

She was still playing with dolls when he consumated the marriage, doesn’t sound like very adult-like behaviour to me?

 

[dianaiad]

She was still playing with dolls when he consumated the marriage, doesn’t sound like very adult-like behaviour to me?

Man, talk about a non-sequitur…what does what one does for recreation have to do with whether one is physically old enough to bear children?

I happen to agree with you, that any nine year old is not ready to bear children, whether she has had her menses or not. But that is here, and now.

NOT there and then.

This article began with a very modern tragedy regarding a Saudi girl being returned to the husband chosen for her by her father. THAT was responded to by someone saying that the Muslim religion/law was being broken thereby, and it has turned into a criticism of the founder of that faith…a criticism that, as I predicted, is falling on very deaf Muslim ears. They have shown that they believe that such accusations against Mohammad regarding his relationship with Aisha are inaccurate, insulting…and just plain wrong. Now why should any Muslim, who has that information (that the anti-Muslim accusations in this area are wrong), pay one tiny bit of attention to anything you have to say, after you begin with an insult of that magnitude?

 

[josie_L]

Man, talk about a non-sequitur…what does what one does for recreation have to do with whether one is physically old enough to bear children?

I happen to agree with you, that any nine year old is not ready to bear children, whether she has had her menses or not. But that is here, and now.

NOT there and then.

This article began with a very modern tragedy regarding a Saudi girl being returned to the husband chosen for her by her father. THAT was responded to by someone saying that the Muslim religion/law was being broken thereby, and it has turned into a criticism of the founder of that faith…a criticism that, as I predicted, is falling on very deaf Muslim ears. They have shown that they believe that such accusations against Mohammad regarding his relationship with Aisha are inaccurate, insulting…and just plain wrong. Now why should any Muslim, who has that information (that the anti-Muslim accusations in this area are wrong), pay one tiny bit of attention to anything you have to say, after you begin with an insult of that magnitude?

If a child of 9 years of age is playing with a doll whether here and now or there and then connotes that the child is not mature enough to being having consensual sex, Mohammed being a man of God, a prophet, should have waited longer to consecrate the marriage, in my humble opinion. Moreover, child brides in Islam is a direct result of Mohammed’s actions centuries ago; they do not see anything wrong with what Mohammed did because he is an example of holiness that many Muslims strive to follow.

 

[dianaiad]

If a child of 9 years of age is playing with a doll whether here and now or there and then connotes that the child is not mature enough to being having consensual sex, Mohammed being a man of God, a prophet, should have waited longer to consecrate the marriage, in my humble opinion. Moreover, child brides in Islam is a direct result of Mohammed’s actions centuries ago; they do not see anything wrong with what Mohammed did because he is an example of holiness that many Muslims strive to follow.

Of course, the fact that child marriages happened quite frequently in the Christian world mean nothing at all, right? Or that at the time, such marriages, especially in higher status families (which even you have to admit that Mohammad was at the time) for dynastic or other reasons were quite common. WE don’t like it. We wouldn’t do it now.

But they did, and if such behavior did not prove Christianity wrong, then such behavior doesn’t prove Islam wrong, either. We’ll just have to go with the, y’know, actual doctrine for that.

As to the idea that prophets should be perfect…pfft. You know better than that. Prophets were, and are, PEOPLE. There isn’t a single one in the OT that didn’t have a flaw…and sometimes a huge one. The writers of the scriptures seemed to have gone out of their way to mention them. The same thing goes for the NT prophets/apostles.

This doesn’t mean that Mohammad’s actions with Aisha are, then, permissible. It DOES mean, however, that no Christian can decide that Islam is wrong BECAUSE Mohammad was not perfect, no matter what the flaw ascribed to him is.

 

[Steven_John]

So what? They were not perfect. Only Jesus Christ is perfect. Adultery is adultery.

My understanding was that Abraham (pbuh) was not perfect but was in right relationship with YHWH.

 

[josie_L]

Of course, the fact that child marriages happened quite frequently in the Christian world mean nothing at all, right? Or that at the time, such marriages, especially in higher status families (which even you have to admit that Mohammad was at the time) for dynastic or other reasons were quite common. WE don’t like it. We wouldn’t do it now.

But they did, and if such behavior did not prove Christianity wrong, then such behavior doesn’t prove Islam wrong, either. We’ll just have to go with the, y’know, actual doctrine for that.

As to the idea that prophets should be perfect…pfft. You know better than that. Prophets were, and are, PEOPLE. There isn’t a single one in the OT that didn’t have a flaw…and sometimes a huge one. The writers of the scriptures seemed to have gone out of their way to mention them. The same thing goes for the NT prophets/apostles.

This doesn’t mean that Mohammad’s actions with Aisha are, then, permissible. It DOES mean, however, that no Christian can decide that Islam is wrong BECAUSE Mohammad was not perfect, no matter what the flaw ascribed to him is.

Can you give me some examples of child marriages within Christianity wherein the child was nine I’d like to hear of them? Furthermore, I find your arguments disingenious as I sense you’re trying to come to the defence of Mohammed only because your own prophet wasn’t holy in character either.

p.s. Islam/Muslims do not believe that Mohammed was flawed, in fact, they use him as a model Muslim and someone they should mimic.

 

[Steven_John]

This was not a dig at you at all. I think I have equally treated you with kindness and respect.

Then please accept may apology.

If you see it that way. Perhaps I should have cited my source in my original post on this topic, but seeing as how this has been discussed previously many times on these forums I thought many of the posters here were already aware of this issue. My apologies for not having provided the source earlier. And quite honestly, the only ones who know for sure whether Muhammad committed these acts are God, Muhammad and Aisha. I will certainly leaves God’s judgment of them to Him.

Yes these are much truer words that you original offers. Praise be to YHWH.
As as we have experienced the source it is always good to try and check them b4 taking words from them and asserting them as facts.

At the same time, if Muslim men are violating little girls and marrying them off before they are mature enough to handle it in emulation of Muhammad - then that is an issue that needs to be addressed.

Yes but this is not simultaneous but a real issue. We also would do well to find a way to have the muftis making unfounded, maybe self suited claims of this “thighing” without foundation.
The only answers i see at the moment is to discuss in TRUTH and have prayer. It is an opportunity for some unity. People claiming to be of many religions have the same feelings.

How do you know that they are false?

Yes you are right here the better choice would be without foundation.
Here in Australia to make a claim without foundation is a false accusation. I believe in America and most of Europe is the same.
Where you live i respect it may be different.

I beg to differ. I have not been led astray. I will follow Jesus Christ forever and will praise His name for all eternity!!

Than differ we do, the Jesus (pbwh) i know of would not make statements without foundation, would not repeat words of muftis as his own. We differ so much, for me to continually assert doing as you did is his way would be grave error creating false image of him also.

What agenda?

for give me My Father had inspired in me you are sent to share the good news. If this was your agenda i assumed he had made you aware of it.

Given that you assert Jesus (pbwh) would have done as you have maybe i was duped by Satan to feel “My Father had inspired in me you are sent to give the good news”

I trust much in the inspiration so much to say He is right you are wrong, or simply we just are not getting on the same page. May YHWH forgive me if my sins have come between us as Brothers.

 

[Steven_John]

I would furthermore like to point out the the reply I quoted was issued not by one man, but by a committee (a committee for scientific research and fatwahs, no less) - indicating that there were several Islamic scholars who reviewed this issue.

Perhaps those that seek further information on this topic would be better served by going to that committee to obtain their sources in issuing their reply.

No in fairness i asked you because you original offered it as if it were from your mouth. I accept you have now changed your claim.

They say "based upon daleel (proof) in addition to the daleel from the Sunnah being from authentic ahaadeeth. " but they do not offer the proof nore has any of us found it.

Brother Jay, how do you take council from this committee and take their position on this issue and not others??

Do you also take their other teachings as true??

Your highlighting committee appears to attempt justifying belief in their words Yahooshua (pbwh) stood alone, i mean alone in his last days in the flesh. this did not make the committees right and him wrong.

How is it you do in one case but not the other?

I think you dont really trust these men.

Brother its a no brainier.

Father do not let the sin of pride cloud between us Brothers make us humble inviting you to speak through us here and always.

 

[Steven_John]

It is a dangerous thing to put and compaire the self proclaimed prophet of islam, mohamad, in the same light as Abraham.

Yes i did not make the comparison you reiterate my point.