Saudi Marriage 'Expert' Advises Men in 'Right Way' to Beat Their Wives

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I think AbeOman is trying to whitwash the word ‘saghiroon’ to mean ‘humble’ as if it was merely good manners instead of something more strident.

This is what Hans Wehr’s dictionary has to say about the meaning of saghiroon.

Wehr states translates the word sa:ghir as "low, lowly, despised, contemptible; humbled, meek, dejected; submissive, servile; subject."Wehr, Arabic English Dictionary, Fourth edition, p. 602
lakshadweepin.com/wiki-Dhimmi

A different edition of Wehr has this definition:

Wehr states that the word sa:ghiru:na is derived from saghir ‘tiny, paltry’, meaning ‘made small, belittled, diminished, humbled, ridiculed’ or 'adopting a cringing, grovelling manner’.[27]
Wehr (1976), p.515,516
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Aminz/dhmmi

Sorry AbeOman, but the evidence is against you on this one.

 

[AbeOman]

I looked up Lane’s Lexicon, and this is the meaning of saghiroona.

Sad-Gh-Ra = to be small/little. saaghirun - one who is small/little/subdued/abject or in a state of subjection. saghiir - small. asghar - smaller.

saghaar - vileness, contempt, humiliation. WOOW hold sec, how does Shaghaar means vilness, Contempt, Humilation. Are you making up a new Arabic word here…? Saghaar comes from Sagheer and it’s the plural word. what did you say Sagher means…see above, small. Ok,

Example, Wa Hum Saqhaara, meaning “And they are little”

Please leave the Arabic to Arabs or those who have learned the right and hard way…not someone like you who is cutting and pasting from some site and in English…that is really cunning thing…!

saghara vb. (1) pcple. act. 7:13, 7:119, 9:29, 12:32, 27:37

saghar n.m. 6:124

saghir n.m. (adj. comp. asghar) 2:282, 9:121, 10:61, 17:24, 18:49, 34:3, 54:53

LL, V4, p: 415, 416

studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

So it means - subdued, belittled, abject, in a state of sujection, or held in vileness, contempt, humiliation.

pg 1691
He made him contemptible, vile, base, ignominious in the eyes of men.

He became vile, base, abject, ignominious, contemptible…

pg 1692
small in rank or dignity…

in a state of vileness, abasement, ignominiousness, abjectness, or contempt.

Yup - that’s so nice of Muslims to treat non-Muslims like that. How would you like it if the tables were turned, buddy?

Aaah, now I’m getting your drift, so who are the None Muslims the Ayah is addressing…? I have asked you this question and you have never answered me. DON"T SAY CHRISTIANS and JEWS because that is not even in the English translation /interpretation of the meanings let alone the original Arabic text…!

One last thing, the word Saaghiruun could originate Saghara, Sagher and could mean sagher, asghar and none of them mean Humiliation…what was the word for that in Arabic…? remember, lisaanun Arabiyun Mubeen…? in other words, Arabic is not sort of middle age English with look out and look in meaning the same thing…! No tangue twisting OK Buddy…!

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Who’s tongue-twisting?

Your master Muhammad told Umar to make the people of surrounding countries into slaves of their Muslim masters - and he gave 9:29 as the command.

This tells us that the saghiroon was not pleasant.

9:29 tells the Muslims to treat the People of the Book with saghiroon. Who these people are does not matter - it means that you Muslims have treated a class of people with humiliation/vileness/abjectness/subjugation/contempt and ignominy.

It means that you were horrible to these People of the Book.

Your tafsir masters acknowledge that.

The People of the Book are Christians and Jews. This is acknowledged by all Muslim scholars as far as I know.

So what if 9:29 does not mention Christians. The fact that it mentions the People of the Book is sufficient to cover them.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

This is what Ibn Kathir said about who 9:29 applied to:

Allah said,

﴿قَـتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَـبَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَـغِرُونَ ﴾

(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.) Therefore, when People of the Scriptures disbelieved in Muhammad , they had no beneficial faith in any Messenger or what the Messengers brought. Rather, they followed their religions because this conformed with their ideas, lusts and the ways of their forefathers, not because they are Allah’s Law and religion. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad , because all Prophets gave the good news of Muhammad’s advent and commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him, even though he is the mightiest of all Messengers. Therefore, they do not follow the religion of earlier Prophets because these religions came from Allah, but because these suit their desires and lusts. Therefore, their claimed faith in an earlier Prophet will not benefit them because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all Prophets . Hence Allah’s statement,

﴿قَـتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَـبَ﴾

(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture,) This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah’s religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims’ control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination. The Messenger sent his intent to various Arab areas around Al-Madinah to gather forces, and he collected an army of thirty thousand. Some people from Al-Madinah and some hypocrites, in and around it, lagged behind, for that year was a year of drought and intense heat. The Messenger of Allah marched, heading towards Ash-Sham to fight the Romans until he reached Tabuk, where he set camp for about twenty days next to its water resources. He then prayed to Allah for a decision and went back to Al-Madinah because it was a hard year and the people were weak, as we will mention, Allah willing.

So after Muhammad had subdued the pagans, it was the turn of the Jews and Christians to be subdued and humiliated right?

Very nice, AbeOman.

Muhammad then applied this verse to surrounding countries who had nothing to do with him. All they did was to disbelieve and that was sufficient for him to send Umar with armies to fight them to make the Muslims the masters and the non-Muslims the slaves.

Very nice indeed, AbeOman. I hope you’re very proud.

 

[AbeOman]

I think AbeOman is trying to whitwash the word ‘saghiroon’ to mean ‘humble’ as if it was merely good manners instead of something more strident.

This is what Hans Wehr’s dictionary has to say about the meaning of saghiroon.

Wehr states translates the word sa:ghir as "low, lowly, despised, contemptible; humbled, meek, dejected; submissive, servile; subject."Wehr, Arabic English Dictionary, Fourth edition, p. 602
lakshadweepin.com/wiki-Dhimmi

A different edition of Wehr has this definition:

Wehr states that the word sa:ghiru:na is derived from saghir ‘tiny, paltry’, meaning ‘made small, belittled, diminished, humbled, ridiculed’ or 'adopting a cringing, grovelling manner’.[27]
Wehr (1976), p.515,516
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Aminz/dhmmi

Sorry AbeOman, but the evidence is against you on this one.

Man, correction and for the love of God, I honestly don’t need a translator with the word and specifically not a guy named Wehr, how many times do I have to say, I’m and Arab, I speak Arabic even in my dreams and from a family full of poets.

Now, for argument sake, let me agree with you that the word means “Humiliation” then two things have to be made clear who is humiliated…? why god choose to say “Wa Hum Saaghiruun” in other words, why he just did not say Wa Saaghuuhum" (Humilate Them), if the word actually means what you want it to mean…?

Are you gonna tell me God Almighty was trying to be pleasant about it when he clearly say “Fight them” Qatiluu"…?

Come on, please try for the last time to understand this, Arabic is not like English and without resorting to big, vague words, in the most simple terms…what the Ayah concludes is that “making payment of Jizya” they will feel humbled made belittled…that is if the word actually means neither of these, why because if could mean other things to, examples can be viewed at your own link Quran-Study/Project-route.

Honestly, I feel like I’m just talking to the space and I don’t have the time and energy for that.

Thanks

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

AbeOman:

saghaar - vileness, contempt, humiliation. WOOW hold sec, how does Shaghaar means vilness, Contempt, Humilation. Are you making up a new Arabic word here…? Saghaar comes from Sagheer and it’s the plural word. what did you say Sagher means…see above, small. Ok,

Example, Wa Hum Saqhaara, meaning “And they are little”

I made no new Arabic word, buddy. I got it from the link I gave.

So you think it is right to:

fight the People of the Book until they pay the Jizyah and they are little?

Do you think belittling people is nice, huh? You’re really digging a bigger hole for yourself, AbeOman. Hahahaha.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Man, correction and for the love of God, I honestly don’t need a translator with the word and specifically not a guy named Wehr, how many times do I have to say, I’m and Arab, I speak Arabic even in my dreams and from a family full of poets.

Now, for argument sake, let me agree with you that the word means “Humiliation” then two things have to be made clear who is humiliated…? why god choose to say “Wa Hum Saaghiruun” in other words, why he just did not say Wa Saaghuuhum" (Humilate Them), if the word actually means what you want it to mean…?
Well - that’s the way your tafsir masters understood it.

Do you think subdued or subjugated is nice?

So you think Muhammad telling Umar to make the Muslims the masters of the non-Muslims nice? What do you think the non-Muslims would have felt? Humiliated? Subjugated?

AbeOman:

Are you gonna tell me God Almighty was trying to be pleasant about it when he clearly say “Fight them” Qatiluu"…?

Of course not. You and I know Allah was particularly horrible when he used the word Qatiloo in 9:29.

AbeOman:

Come on, please try for the last time to understand this, Arabic is not like English and without resorting to big, vague words, in the most simple terms…what the Ayah concludes is that “making payment of Jizya” they will feel humbled made belittled…that is if the word actually means neither of these, why because if could mean other things to, examples can be viewed at your own link Quran-Study/Project-route.

Honestly, I feel like I’m just talking to the space and I don’t have the time and energy for that.

Thanks

What other things? What other meaning? You think being made to feel subdued is nice?

Being forced to pay the Jizyah with abasement (Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs) is nice?

How would you like to be abased?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Here are more Arabic tafsirs of 9:29 to show what these Arabic masters understand saghiroon to mean.

Perhaps they are not Arabic speakers like AbeOman and therefore have misunderstood this word.

Ibn Juzayy
humble - state of abasement.

Jalalayn
state of abasement

as-Suyuti
state of abasement

What is this ‘state of abasement’?
Ibn 'Abbas said: they are pushed. Ibn Abi Hatim transmitted that. It is transmitted that al-Mughira told Rustam, “I call you to Islam or else you must pay the jizya while you are in a state of abasement.” He said, “I know what jizya means, but what does ‘a state of abasement’ mean?” He replied, “You pay it while you are standing and I am sitting and the whip hanging is over your head.” Abu’sh-Shaykh related that Sa’id ibn al-Musayyab said, “I prefer that the people of the dhimma become tired by paying the jizya since He says, ‘until they pay the jizya with their own hands in a state of complete abasement.’” It is used as a proof by those who say that it is taken in a humiliating way, and so the taker sits and the dhimmi stands with his head bowed and his back bent. The jizya is placed in the balance and the taker seizes his beard and hits his chin. This is rejected according to an-Nawawi who said, “This manner is invalid.” This ayat is used as a proof by those who say that the people of the dhimma are left in the landa of Islam because it is understood that one refrains from fighting them when they pay it.

ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ABewley/tawba1.html

What is this ‘state of abasement’ and humiliating way, AbeOman?

 

[AbeOman]

This is what Ibn Kathir said about who 9:29 applied to:

We are back to square one…ain’t we…"…!

SNIPPED YOU MADE THIS UP…OR SHOW ME WHERE IBN KATHEER STATUS CHRISTIAN AND JEWS IN THE ORIGINAL ARABIC HADITH…?

WOOW…So know you are historian now…? amazing…!

If you know that much then you will understand when Jizya was instructed…remember the battle of Tabuuk (now in northern Saudi Arabia) by then Islam was very powerful and as you know drove the Romans out of what is known today as Arabia.

SNIPED

So after Muhammad had subdued the pagans, it was the turn of the Jews and Christians to be subdued and humiliated right?

Go to the oldest church in Cairo and you will find the answer that you are NOT looking for in there…!

By the way, what is do you believe are you a Jew or Christian or neither and why it does not show in your profile…?

Very nice, AbeOman.

Muhammad then applied this verse to surrounding countries who had nothing to do with him. All they did was to disbelieve and that was sufficient for him to send Umar with armies to fight them to make the Muslims the masters and the non-Muslims the slaves.

Which Omar (Umar) as they are many…?

Surrounding countries and this is a new allegations…make none Muslims slaves…???

Very nice indeed, AbeOman. I hope you’re very proud.

“Al Hamdulliahi ladee haddani illaa hadaa wamaa kuntu minal muhtadeen”…! read this and tell me what it means then you can tell me I’m proud…!

 

[Reuben_J]

I will dislike him or any body else who says anything “Bad” about any prophet…! we Muslims have a huge problem how Hollywood treats likes of Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Abraham…(Peace and the Blessing of God Almighty be upon them all). Personally, if you ask me, I would go even further then “dislike” and tell you openly I hate anyone who defames or mistreats all the of the Prophets and messengers of God Almighty and their families. We don’t buy all that blasphemous stuff you call "Defame Jesus and Win Awards…Hollywood style stuff.

I could see clearly I’m bit emotionally just talking about it.

Well, it is just for the record. Frankly I am quite shock to hear this frankness openly from a Muslim.

I am not standing in your way with your hate. As I said, it is only discussion on belief. I am sure we treat our respective religion seriously. For many of us it will be a matter of life and death. But belief is just belief. We cannot change what others think of our belief. So what if they don’t believe what we believe?

I’ve heard what Muslims say about St. Paul and they are not very nice. But I don’t hate them. Disappointed yes, but not hate.

Hate can be a dangerous thing … People got killed because of extreme hate. We see that happening today.

From a Christian’s point of view, what Mohammad did was wrong. Very wrong, to engage in a sexual relation with a 9-year-old. We got a name for this wrong. Someone just said it and you dislike him.

A 9-year-old does not and cannot make decision on matter such as marraige and intercourse. If a 53-year-old man led her to submit or to agree, it is just not right. God’s prophet should bring revolution to right the wrongs and to bring an end to sins, and not to confirm practices that were not right.

If a prophet does not have the moral courage to be different or to be a light to a sinful world, he is not worth his prophethood. This is where your Christians protagonists disagree with you. Well, come on hate them, but it will not change their perception unless you tell us reasonings that we have not heard before that can convince us otherwise.

Fortunately, this is an internet … The most that could happen perhaps is a spam. In real life, it could be worse …

May God bless you.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

AbeOman:

WE ARE BACK TO SQUERE ONE…AAIN"T WE…

SNIPPED YOU MADE THIS UP…OR SHOW ME WHERE IBN KATHEER STATUS CHRISTIAN AND JEWS IN THE ORIGINAL ARABIC HADITH…?

Read the tafsir I gave above.

Particularly this part:

Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah

You see here the words: Jews and Christians?

Yes? No?

AbeOman:

WOOW…So know you are historian now…? amazing…!

If you know that much then you will understand when Jizya was instructed…remember the battle of Tabuuk (now in northern Saudi Arabia) by then Islam was very powerful and as you know drove the Romans out of Arabia.

So Syria is in Arabia, is it?

So when Muhammad ordered Umar to fight the Persians and impose the Jizyah, they were in Arabia were they?

AbeOman:

So after Muhammad had subdued the pagans, it was the turn of the Jews and Christians to be subdued and humiliated right?

Go to the oldest church in Cairo and you will find the answer that you are NOT looking for in there…!

So you think you know better than the tafsir masters, do you? Why don’t you read the tafsir I gave. What I wrote came from there.

AbeOman:

By the way, what is do you believe are you a Jew or Christian or neither and why it does not show in your profile…?

I’m an atheist, not that it matters.

AbeOman:

Rodrigo:

Very nice, AbeOman.

Muhammad then applied this verse to surrounding countries who had nothing to do with him. All they did was to disbelieve and that was sufficient for him to send Umar with armies to fight them to make the Muslims the masters and the non-Muslims the slaves.

Which Omar (Umar) as they are many…?

Umar al-Khattab of course. The least you could have done was read the Bukhari hadith I gave. If you did - you would know this.

AbeOman:

Rodrigo:

Surrounding countries and this is a new allegations…make none Muslims slaves…???

Very nice indeed, AbeOman. I hope you’re very proud.

“Al Hamdulliahi ladee haddani illaa hadaa wamaa kuntu minal muhtadeen”…! read this and tell me what it means then you can tell me I’m proud…!

Of course since you’re a Muslim you are proud that Muhammad and Muslims forced the People of the Book to pay the Jizyah with subjection/humiliation/state of abasement etc.

It’s always nice to treat people like dirt, isn’t it, especially when you’re extorting protection money from them.

 

[AbeOman]

Well - that’s the way your tafsir masters understood it.

Do you think subdued or subjugated is nice?

God say fight them and he did not say go an start some cook ups with them, did he so who cares if they were subjugated or subdued…? and what exactly you are you trying to get at…because I honestly can figure out what you are trying to achieve…?

Simply put what is your point, just give me the bottom line…?

SNIPED

So you think Muhammad telling Umar to make the Muslims the masters of the non-Muslims nice? What do you think the non-Muslims would have felt? Humiliated? Subjugated?

Please, do me a favor, read what my answers and don’t just repeat the same thing again and again it’s really becoming not so like fun anymore…we get to enjoy while we care communicating, would not you agree…?

Of course not. You and I know Allah was particularly horrible when he used the word Qatiloo in 9:29.

Allah Subhanahu Wata’alaa is never “HORRIBEL” yaa uhal faajir…uffin laka…

What an evil thing to say…???

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Let me get this straight.

You keep on insisting:

1. saghiroon is only humble, not humiliate, subdued, subjection, abjectness, contempt etc. because you are an Arab and so we should just take your word for it.

I, on the other hand bring dictionaries and about half a dozen tafsirs to say you are incorrect.

1. You keep on saying 9:29 does not mention Christians.

I, on the other hand bring tafsirs to show that 9:29 refers to People of the Book which is understood to mean Christians and Jews.

Now you are saying qatiloo is not horrible?

But… but…

this is what Ibn Kathir has to say about the word ‘qatiloo’ as in 2:216.

Indeed, fighting is as the Ayah describes it, as it includes being killed, wounded, striving against the enemies and enduring the hardship of travel.

(. …and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you) meaning, fighting is followed by victory, dominance over the enemy, taking over their lands, money and offspring.

Then there’s this entry in Lane’s Lexicon;
studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

= Qaf-Ta-Lam = to kill, put to death, be accused, slay/murder/kill/slaughter, attempt to kill, render person like to one killed, to wage war/combat/battle, to master, contend/fight, deadly, knew a thing thoroughly/well, become acquainted with it.

How nice, AbeOman.

 

[AbeOman]

SNIPED
Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah

You see here the words: Jews and Christians?

Yes? No?

NOP…NONE…ZILCH…and please, I have asked you so many times, since it’s NOT in the Ayah then least you can do for me is show it to me from the ORIGINAL ARABIC Test of the HADITH from Ibn Al Katheer…!

Also, this is a clear contradiction in so many passages were God is teaching us not even to curse let alone fight against the people of the books (Christians and Jews) ACCEPT those who initiate a war against Muslims.

So Syria is in Arabia, is it?

From Yemen in the south all the way to Turkish/Kurdistan border is what is called Arabia today (Excluding North Africa+Two Countries in Horn of Africa as these are called Arab States and NOT Arabia) but not then…ever head of the words Arabia Felix or ancient Arabia…? at one point I thought you were a historian…

So when Muhammad ordered Umar to fight the Persians and impose the Jizyah, they were in Arabia were they?

I don’t follow you but the battle took place in Tabook, Northern Saudi Arabia…! you know that don’t you…!

As your reference about Persians, I guess there you go on again making up your own history…! or reading into the Quran as you wish…that Ayah was send down for specific purpose and at a specific time and place…! Don’t they show these details in the sites you are coping from…?

So you think you know better than the tafsir masters, do you? Why don’t you read the tafsir I gave. What I wrote came from there.

Absolutely not, never said that or claimed anything like that all I did was I got an authentic a copy of Ibn Katheer Hadith books and I honestly fail to see where it says People of Scriptures or Jews or Christians…! he just narrates totally different then that.

I’m an atheist, not that it matters.

It matters very much, you believe in nothing so what is the point of going into all these. since to doubt is the first step in believing.

had you had doubts then I’m sure you would have asked your questions in a different manner and take the time to read my responses and then ask for more clarifications. Then agree or disagree with me.

And if you don’t believe in god why is it so important for you to know his ways and instructions, but if you would then I think you could start asking me any questions about Islam or you can ask the Catholic brothers and sisters on this forum on anything about Catholism, I’m sure they will be more than happy to help you out.

Umar al-Khattab of course. The least you could have done was read the Bukhari hadith I gave. If you did - you would know this.

I I already knew which Omar you were referring to, never the less at times one needs to be little bit light headed…

Of course since you’re a Muslim you are proud that Muhammad and Muslims forced the People of the Book to pay the Jizyah with subjection/humiliation/state of abasement etc.

You even did read and understand what I have wrote in Arabic (English words) Did you…?

Ooh clever one, that is called batching-up statement in arguments, it’s like putting together things that don’t belong to together…just like the apple and oranges…! I’m sure you have heard that before. .

How tricky you are my friend, why would not you just make this statement from get go and safe me all the hustle and time…i have spent replying to you.

Let me break it down to you…I made it clear the Ayah was NOT referring to the people of the book (Christians and Jews) but you seem to do bit f insertion of your own…can I suggest something…pick up the Quran AL Kareem in it’s original Arabic text…Or the Hatidh if you can find one…read it once more…slowly.
Now see what it say…(Minalladeen) “from among those” that is clear…does “from among those” means or even sounds people of the book to you…!

More ever. Let’s do one more Acid Test,

1- Do people of the Book Believe in God…(lets say the “Father” or “One God as Jews believe”, Do they both believe the day of Judgement…Absolutely YES…Do they forbid wickedness, YES again.

Now, what does the Ayah (verse) say and is referring to …Those who don’t believe in God or the the day of Judgement and those who don’t forbid wickedness…!

So who are folks the verse referring to Christians and Jews or someone else…???

It’s always nice to treat people like dirt, isn’t it, especially when you’re extorting protection money from them.

Even nicer one…eh, well first choose a faith, why dust mind, since you actually have none and least to say that’s bit cheeky statement…!!!

 

[Valke2]

I made no new Arabic word, buddy. I got it from the link I gave.

So you think it is right to:

fight the People of the Book until they pay the Jizyah and they are little?

Do you think belittling people is nice, huh? You’re really digging a bigger hole for yourself, AbeOman. Hahahaha.

ARe you not, right now, engaging in a course of conduct designed to belittle Abe?

 

[AbeOman]

Snipped…sorry
Thanks, please consider this,

1- Anyone who says anything negative about st.Paul without a valid proof is not a Muslim at least not a good one, anyway why would anyone need a proof to say anything negative about st.Paul…? That is a good Muslim answer for you.

2- We live in a vile times, I saw, read and hear what some folks write about Jesus, Muhammad, and Moses and that is not even as bad as what they how they portray them in movies…but do you see masses moving against it. NOP, I bet lots folks would get real mad if a a magazine portraits Paris Hilton as a whore…then you will find so many books and films that would even do worse and say very ugly stuff about the prophets and their families…!

Do I hate that Yes, I how I deal with that…?, well for a starter and I will be bluntly honest again, I don’t have resort to voilance to show may hate. it’s as simple as that. that is if I’m been a true Muslim.

3- The word is pedophile, so you think the Prophet of Islam was one (God forbid), you think he was very wrong to marry a 9 year old…? OK, that is your views and have every right to them, in turn I will hate it and that is my right too. Now, from Islamic teachings point of view, do I have the right to blow up someone who for his own views absolutely NOT and if someone does that are they really doing an Unislamic act…sure they are.

But I have to deal with that vilness in other none violent ways…example, when the Danish cartoonist draw those nasty pictures in his newspaper (under the disguises of freedom of expression) Did I react, YES, so did millions and millions of Muslims, How…? some violently and very angrily without breaking any doors of churches or killing any Christains, but some broke the the gates of Danish Emabssies or burn danish business outlets which totallly has nothing to do with Islam and how they should react.

While some like me reacted very angrily but in a constructive way that will showed this man or his newspaper has committed a great sin against all Muslims if not against humanity.

To side tract a bit, let me ask you this, have you seen or heard any Muslims defaming Jesus (PBUH) in any way as a revenge knowing full well that the man who committed this heinous crime was Christian. NOP you won’t and will not.

Now, dealing with the Prophet marriage to Sayyiddah Aisha (God be pleased with her) when she was Nine, What is so wrong about it?, of course you will say that what is wrong is in it’s sexual context, so I will agree with you, what do you know for a fact…? Is possible a girl getting marrying at 9…? Has it ever happen in other societies…? in our societies today…? what sort of marriage are we really talking about…? or we just look at it from the sexuality angle or there is more to it…?

However, my question is this, How much do you about this subject for a fact, honestly and without baize or malice? Would you trust any thing you read or from any source…?

Can I read and believe any material as vulgar and wicked as the ones that claim that our lady and the lady of all the women of the world the virgin Marry (God be pleased with her) was a whore (God forbid…me writing this is a sin by itself but I have to make a point to you), What is the right thing to do…? Not to blow up those who said such evil thing, but to demand such material to be removed and at least to hate them for what they did and if even find any piece of that I will burn it but not the man who wrote.

Questions and more questions, but for me as Muslim, I have already been giving the answers, valid answers, reasonable answers and morally acceptable answers about this case, so what else is there then, for others who would like to find out the same answers that I have that are acceptable to Billion and more Muslims, then I believe a common sense dictates that they go and find out themselves instead of lies and conjucture and applying it against Islam or trying to discretion the Prophet…?

Same rule applies when someone makes a serious and evil claim about our Lady the virgin Marry (God be pleased with her), I have already been giving the answers and believe me, in million years I would never be able to describe my own mother or wife or sister the way God Almighty described her in the Quran and the elivate position and high esteam she enjoys in his Kingdom.

Please contineu if your time permits and not boring you to death…

 

[AbeOman]

The bottom line is, I hate the act but not the person, the wrong and it’s the weakest of all actions in faith, I hate those who do it what they do and why they do it and i always hope that they see their ways and repent before it’s too late in god Almighty’s judgement as he is the judge but not me and in no certain terms, I will never accept or promote any voilance against anyone for what he says or believe unless the act itself is against my physical well being or that of the Muslims, (couple of punches right at the mouth would not be so bad) but that even would not acceptable. That is the Islam I know, personally let any man curse my mom and I will drink his blood…as the saying goes, so you see I’m just human and sometimes will succumb to my weakness and pride so we do act on our own accord and most of the times forget what God instructed us to do…!!!

Hate for the safe of God is part of a strong faith as we all hate doing evil deeds but hate something or someone for your own sake is both sin and very self destructive act. that is my point.

Thanks for you excellent reply and God bless you too.

 

[AbeOman]

ARe you not, right now, engaging in a course of conduct designed to belittle Abe?

Ahhaaa…I think he is but wait he won’t succeed…!

thanks for the bit of humor in an otherwise quite sterile and serious sounding rant…

 

[rpp]

If Islam is so tolerant and open, as AbeOman claims:

Why is it illegal to celebrate Mass in most Islamic countries, like Saudi Arabia?

Why is there a death sentence for those who convert from Islam to Christianity? (Iran executes 12 to 20 converts per year. Pakistan executes converts too.)

Why is it legal for a Muslim to burn a Bible, but a crime punishable by death for a non-Moslem to even tear a page from a Quran? (Recent case in Pakistan where a Christian was convicted and sentenced to death despite the fact that there was no proof at all. The court also ignored the fact that this man and his accusers were in the midst of a property dispute, thus giving a motive for false accusation. Only under international pressure was this man released, but on the condition that he and his entire family be deported and all his property confiscated.)

Muslims in Europe and the USA and not treated in this manner.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Is it true, that people are not allowed to take bibles with them to the olymipics?