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Montalban
Guest
I apologise to AbeOman for cherry-picking!^
Saudi Marriage 'Expert' Advises Men in 'Right Way' to Beat Their Wives
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dolphinlove
Guest
but your wrongI apologise to AbeOman for cherry-picking!
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AbeOman
Guest
Whyā¦is he wrongā¦? itās good of him and i love and respect him for it.but your wrong
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AbeOman
Guest
And i apologize for accusing of cherry pickingā¦perhaps that is not the right word in down underā¦I apologise to AbeOman for cherry-picking!
We tend to disagree on lots of things and that is ok, it will not change that we can still respect each other and pock bit of fun at each other innocently.
Thanks for being kind though:thumbsup:
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AbeOman
Guest
**Aahhaa, i did now you posses such a canning witā¦of coarse we know that and that is what the prophet meant when he questioned āhow do you beat your wivesā¦and then sleep with themā¦ā? as you rightly quoted earlier.
meaning how could you do such thing and then lay down with themā¦the fact is lots of Muslim men beat their wives just like the prophet questioned like stallions or worse donkeysā¦even though again prophet forbids beating of animals.
my friend there is a great difference between what Islam is teaching and what some or lots of Muslims are doingā¦!
That is the thing.**
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Montalban
Guest
No. It has the same meaning. I was being sarcastic. Youāve not picked up on the fact others here suggest that you cherry-pick.
Your whole rebuttal consists of such devices
a) youāre just cherry-picking
b) you just donāt understand us
c) go read some more until you understand
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Montalban
Guest
But they answered him how they beat their wives. It wasnāt a rhetorical question. He asks āHow do you beat your wivesā and they reply how they beat them. Thereās no āDonāt beat themā warning here.
Thatās the thing youāve missed.
Even the argument āOh weāre allowed to beat women, but only with a miswakā is not an argument āWeāre not allowed to beat womenā. It means YOU ARE ALLOWED TO BEAT THEM!
You consistantly offer defence that sides with us!
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cyberjacques
Guest
Very well, I accept your challenge. Actually, I accepted your challenge several years ago when a group of Muslims thought it was Godās will that they should brutally murder 3000 innocent Americans. I tried for a very long time to believe that Islam was a basically peaceful religion that had been hijacked by a bunch of psychos, but every scrap of information I found proved me wrong. I read the verses of the Koran used to support violence, and also the ones that supposedly forbid it. I read up on the history of Islam and its followers. I looked at the policies and laws of Islamic countries, and I found out that every country that has ever come under sharia law has gone from a paradise to a cesspool.
But most importantly, I watched the news reports from around the world of Muslims slaughtering innocent people while chanting how great Allah is. And I waited in vain for peaceful Muslims to finally do or say something against it. I was finally forced to accept the truth. And the truth is that Islam is a religion of hate and death.
All of this happened years before I became Christian.
Now, I challenge you. Investigate Islam, and tell me what you find. If you want to come in here and try to defend Islam, at least bring some evidence with you. Donāt try to tell me that I havenāt investigated enough to know what Iām talking about.
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Montalban
Guest
In Islamic logic if youāre still critical of Islam, itās 'cause you donāt understand it. The appeals of incredulity by Moslems when challenged comes from the fact that many genuinely expect you to just āget itā as they present it.
They reel back in horror when you ask them to actually prove something.
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cyberjacques
Guest
Yeah, I knowā¦ All we can do is try, I guess.
Maybe it will get through, eventually.
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Montalban
Guest
With our prayersYeah, I knowā¦ All we can do is try, I guess.
:hug3:
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dolphinlove
Guest
Im not holding my breathYeah, I knowā¦ All we can do is try, I guess.
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George_Waters
Guest
You see Abe, Muslims tell everyone that Islam is the very word of God, His religion, and there is only one Islam. Then they go and interpret Godās word, even Islam as a whole, however they want, lacking central authority, to suit their own agendas. (That is not one Islam, but many, many Islams.) Then when Muslims are called on this difference in interpretation and practice they claim it is our lack of understanding. You see the issue here? Itās not Fox News, CNN or anybody else that has brought this on Muslims, but Muslimsā¦ though I guess you could argue it is the will of Allah.
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jerry_h_1700
Guest
- So a cleric says itās OK to beat ones wife and suddenly people accuse him of representing all Islam? Sorry but that wonāt work. Islam is a decentralized religion and doesnāt have a Catechism and a central authority like we Catholics do (Though many Muslims now feel that a āVaticanā of their own would be good in clarifying issues, problem is they are split into 2 major camps with very little chance of any reconciliation anytime soon)
- Did you all know that in 1892 Italy made a law that raised the minimum age of marriage to 12? Thatās right, in Catholic Italy pre-1892 a man could have sex with an elementary age girl! Does that mean all we Catholics are pedophiles? I also saw in a used bookstore some years back a pamphlet written by pastor that also talked about the proper ways of ādiscipliningā ones wife. And the largest amounts of domestic abuse in the US occur in Baptist regions and households, does this mean I should accuse the Baptist church as a whole of condoning wife beating?
- If we are gonna start throwing Koran quotes left and right, I bet some people could fire back with some unsavory Old Testament quotes from the Bibleā¦
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George_Waters
Guest
Jerry,
Part of the problem for Muslims is that they claim the Quran is the very word of Allah and there is only one Islam yet, as we all know, lacking any central authority, everyone (Well Muslims anyway, they get upset if we voice our interpretations) can define Islamic belief and the Quran how they want to suit their own beliefs or agendas. So Muslims need to quit saying there is one Islam and admit it is a hodge-podge of beliefs with a common beginning, like (and I am sure to upset people here) the numerous Protestant denominations.
Muslims speak of experts in Islam, but vehemently reject these experts if their opinions differ from their own about Islam. So basically every Muslim is an expert on Islam (though many here always advise us to ask someone else when they donāt know an answer, then get upset if they donāt like the answer we get and attack the āexpertā we got the information from, or changes the subject or attack our beliefsā¦)
Part of the problem for Muslims is that they claim the Quran is the very word of Allah and there is only one Islam yet, as we all know, lacking any central authority, everyone (Well Muslims anyway, they get upset if we voice our interpretations) can define Islamic belief and the Quran how they want to suit their own beliefs or agendas. So Muslims need to quit saying there is one Islam and admit it is a hodge-podge of beliefs with a common beginning, like (and I am sure to upset people here) the numerous Protestant denominations.
Muslims speak of experts in Islam, but vehemently reject these experts if their opinions differ from their own about Islam. So basically every Muslim is an expert on Islam (though many here always advise us to ask someone else when they donāt know an answer, then get upset if they donāt like the answer we get and attack the āexpertā we got the information from, or changes the subject or attack our beliefsā¦)
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AbeOman
Guest
What is your Proofā¦? to correct your misunderstanding or lack of knowledge Islam allows and even encourages difference in opinions in Tafseer, in Hadith and in all aspects of Islam, itās one shoulders of the believer to seek and accept the one that is closest to the Quran. that is why we have 5 main schools of thoughts and fewer smaller ones, this is called Takhfeef,Tiaseer, etc for Muslims and all are based on Ijtihad, what is not debatable are the Creed (11 connons of the Aqeedah), 5 pillars of Islam and the Laws defined in the Quran anything else is open for discussion and disagreements.
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AbeOman
Guest
Mr. Goerge, please allow me to correct you, Muslims are not allowed to interpret the Quran how they see fit because it does not need any interpretation to suit our own needs, itās holistic in what allows or forbids. What Muslims can do or is allowed is for them to do Ijtihad on Hadiths of both types and I believe you would not know what types Iām talking about.
Quran instructs Muslims in certain terms what every Muslim should follow or do or donāt do but those who chose not to or try to changed it to their whims are at peril and not Islam since itās a universal faith, moreover, the will of Allah or as God wills and what Iām capable doing in good or bad deeds are two different things all together, if God wills to wipe out the earth he certainly can but he wonāt will it for me to nurse couple ice cold beers, why because God does not intent evil, itās for us believers to choose to do evil deeds, he ahs given us the brain to know the difference so whatever we do good or evil is our making.
honestly I would not want to say but your knowledge of Islam is not so good and I donāt blame you or dislike you for it, just keep in mind, as there are good Catholics and bad Catholics also in Islam there good Muslims and bad Muslims so donāt hold against Islam what no so good Muslims do. Mike Tyson says he is Muslim as Muhammad Ali, your pick.
Example, the word or words ābeat your wife or wivesā is there in the Quran but my friend itās aināt just that simple as you think it is, there are certain and strong rules, regulations, ramifications and limits to how, why, for what purpose one is allowed to beat his wife. As the saying goes going in to the toilet and coming out of it is not the same.
Anyway, think about the question the prophet posed to Muslims when he saidā¦in short, āHow come you beat your wife and then lay down with herā meaning how can you beat her or mistreat her and then expect to share the same bed with her or make love to her. Common sense and those who lack it are much different from jackasses being Muslims or Mormons.
I would suggest that you read more on this subject and I could suggest few good books.
Thanks for sharing your opinions,
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George_Waters
Guest
So if the Quran says it is OK to beat your wife than it is OK period, regardless of what Muslims, the hadiths or anything else says?
Iād be OK with āthe Quran says it ā end of discussionā, but way too many Muslims āinterpretā this differently and claim we are ignorant for claiming there is any other interpretation other than there own. Interpretation makes it easy to twist things to suit your own ends.
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George_Waters
Guest
Abe,
Thank you for you civil and honest posts. I know there are good Muslims and bad Muslims just like there is with every other group of humanity. My problem is with Islam. Not with submission to God, but an artificially created religion that is at best a poor amalgamation of Jewish, Gnostic and pagan beliefs. I would be more than happy to simply allow you to have your own faith, but when Islam insists it is the only way and everyone must convert, submit or die, well I have major a problem with that.
Thank you for you civil and honest posts. I know there are good Muslims and bad Muslims just like there is with every other group of humanity. My problem is with Islam. Not with submission to God, but an artificially created religion that is at best a poor amalgamation of Jewish, Gnostic and pagan beliefs. I would be more than happy to simply allow you to have your own faith, but when Islam insists it is the only way and everyone must convert, submit or die, well I have major a problem with that.
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AbeOman
Guest
Please, donāt simplified because itās that not simple, the Quran lied down certain practices and steps to deal with if a man finds out that his wife dishonored him, i.e. ( marriage, his wealth, his trust in her, so on and so forth), beating is mentioned as the last one of these steps but then right after that comes a warning so strong that any man who has an iota of believe in his heart will tremble in fear of wrath of God and would never raise his voice to his wife let alone his fist. Remember here what the bible says in (Matt 10:28 and in Luke 12:15) and in so many verses.
The point Iām trying to make is if someone is willing to kill himselfā¦(which is one of the major āAl Kabirā sins and kill others who are innocent and that is even more graver and bigger sin), what do you think a weak and faithless man do if intent to be abusive to his wife, does it matter what God tells him to do or not to do. Religion is a way of life and not a dictatorial doctrine that keeps 24/7 watchful eyes what we do or donāt and itās the person to be choose the deed, good or bad.
No there is no other interpretations, that comes the tools that are allowed to use, same say slap on her hands, some say slap on her abdominal some say with a Miswak, some say with a finger on her face and so on and so far.
Yes, itās in the Quran and Iām quite happy to acknowledge it because if one beats his wife In a manor not allowed or for any other reason that is not outlined in the Quran, as consequence she can file a divorce and by law she will get it, this is a common practice in all most all Muslims countries as part of the family law.
Letās not throw stones at each other, there are plenty of versus in the NT that most definitely you would want them to be removed from the bible, or as some of my learned Christian friends say, these versus are not obligatory and does not apply to todayās Christians and only record a certain passages in history though some are the basic commandments and cannons of the bibles,.
Though I know many of these verses far too well I will quote none, at least I would not want anyone considering me some sort of douchebag who is here for some sick and dissipated reasons. So my friend regardless of what you think bad or good whichās very significant to me, everything in the Quran is obligatory and applies till dooms day.
If you decide not to carry on in this discussion with you, then my friend till on other thread, I bid you in peace,
Thanks once again,
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