Saudi Marriage 'Expert' Advises Men in 'Right Way' to Beat Their Wives

[AbeOman]

Abe,

Thank you for you civil and honest posts. I know there are good Muslims and bad Muslims just like there is with every other group of humanity. My problem is with Islam. Not with submission to God, but an artificially created religion that is at best a poor amalgamation of Jewish, Gnostic and pagan beliefs. I would be more than happy to simply allow you to have your own faith, but when Islam insists it is the only way and everyone must convert, submit or die, well I have major a problem with that.

My friend, thanks so much for your kind words, I do apprecaite your kindnes and let me leave with these two verses from two different chapters in the Quran but carrying the dame meaning and remember no one and I mean no one if he understands anything to do with the Quran or Islam has the right to force anyone into believing Islam no matter what and if anyone ever tells you other wise, just tell them these short verses and the translations of their meanings, in full, within the correct context and background.

“And say: The truth is from your Lord. Then whosoever wills, let him believe; and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve” [al-Kahf 18:29]

Interpretation of the meaning, God is telling the Prophet (PBUH) Say or Proclaim: “This is the truth from your Lord,” then whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve.
Note, him donates both Male and female as in the original Arabic word and the same applies to the verses below.

The second, Verses from a different chapter,
“Say: O you mankind! Now truth, has come to you from your Lord. So whosoever receives guidance, he does so for the good of his own self; and whosoever goes astray, he does so to his own loss; and I am not (set) over you as a disposer”[Yoonus 10:108]
Interpretation of the meaning,
God Almighty commanded His Messenger Muhammad (PBUH) to convey the truth to all of mankind. Then they have the choice to do as they wish. If a person accepts it or obeys, he benefits himself, and if he disobeys, he harms himself. And you are not “The prophet” set upon them as a disposer of affairs to oblige you for guidance”

Basically, the Quran is telling that everyone has to make his or her own choices and don’t let anybody else tell you otherwise.

I leave you in peace and hope you keep well,

 

[Montalban]

1. So a cleric says it’s OK to beat ones wife and suddenly people accuse him of representing all Islam? Sorry but that won’t work. Islam is a decentralized religion and doesn’t have a Catechism and a central authority like we Catholics do (Though many Muslims now feel that a “Vatican” of their own would be good in clarifying issues, problem is they are split into 2 major camps with very little chance of any reconciliation anytime soon)

Hold on, that’s just the beginning of evidence. You’ve not really addressed this, anyway, except an appeal to incredulity; that it just can’t be opinion representative of Islam.

You’re good at down-playing evidence, I cited two different sites. I’m happy to cite more.

1. Did you all know that in 1892 Italy made a law that raised the minimum age of marriage to 12? That’s right, in Catholic Italy pre-1892 a man could have sex with an elementary age girl! Does that mean all we Catholics are pedophiles? I also saw in a used bookstore some years back a pamphlet written by pastor that also talked about the proper ways of “disciplining” ones wife. And the largest amounts of domestic abuse in the US occur in Baptist regions and households, does this mean I should accuse the Baptist church as a whole of condoning wife beating?

Can you show a link between the law in Italy and the teachings of Christ? Italy prior to 1892 was a nation that was only young. I’d like to see more information.

1. If we are gonna start throwing Koran quotes left and right, I bet some people could fire back with some unsavory Old Testament quotes from the Bible…

Only if you can show some causal links between these and the way Christians behave.

Looks like another Moslem apologist in disguise has appeared in our midst

 

[Montalban]

What is your Proof…?

Sigh, the typical dodge! It’s already been cited - two expert sites.

to correct your misunderstanding or lack of knowledge Islam allows and even encourages difference in opinions in Tafseer, in Hadith and in all aspects of Islam, it’s one shoulders of the believer to seek and accept the one that is closest to the Quran.

Who judges which is closest?
AN-NISA (WOMEN)
004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html

that is why we have 5 main schools of thoughts and fewer smaller ones, this is called Takhfeef,Tiaseer, etc for Muslims and all are based on Ijtihad, what is not debatable are the Creed (11 connons of the Aqeedah), 5 pillars of Islam and the Laws defined in the Quran anything else is open for discussion and disagreements.

Which ones forbid beating your wife?

Which say you should only use a Miswack?

Book 11, Number 2142:
Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/011.sat.html#011.2142

Here’s how women are viewed:
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 30:
Narrated Abdullah bin ‘Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said, "Evil omen is in the women, the house and the horse.’
zawaj.com/articles/sahihbukhari.html
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 31:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Evil omen was mentioned before the Prophet: The Prophet said, “If there is evil omen in anything, it is in the house, the woman and the horse.”
(Ibid)
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 32:
Narrated Sahl bin Sad:
Allah’s Apostle said, “If at all there is bad omen, it is in the horse, the woman, and the house.”
(Ibid)
Volume 7, Book 62, Number 33:
Narrated Usama bin Zaid:
The Prophet said, “After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women.”
(Ibid)

 

[jerry_h_1700]

Looks like another Moslem apologist in disguise has appeared in our midst

If speaking the truth and opposing lies and distortions makes me a “Moslem apologist”, then I declare myself guilty!

 

[Montalban]

If speaking the truth and opposing lies and distortions makes me a “Moslem apologist”, then I declare myself guilty!

If you say so. I note you’ve not attempted to address any facts brought forth. I guess ignoring those facts helps.

All you need do is show any passages you feel related to Christians attitudes to beating wives, and you’d be on your way to making a case. But that would be too difficult, I guess. Far easier just to call everyone a bigot.

 

[jerry_h_1700]

If you say so. I note you’ve not attempted to address any facts brought forth. I guess ignoring those facts helps.

All you need do is show any passages you feel related to Christians attitudes to beating wives, and you’d be on your way to making a case. But that would be too difficult, I guess. Far easier just to call everyone a bigot.

There are PLENTY of Bible quotes that can be distorted to justify beating women. Heck, I could write a whole book on the OT, but for now I have remembered hearing many people in the past using the “wives submit to their husbands” NT passage as a way of saying that a husband could even kill his wife since she must submit to him in all things.

 

[PapaSquash]

Let’s not throw stones at each other, there are plenty of versus in the NT that most definitely you would want them to be removed from the bible, or as some of my learned Christian friends say, these versus are not obligatory and does not apply to today’s Christians and only record a certain passages in history though some are the basic commandments and cannons of the bibles,.

Though I know many of these verses far too well I will quote none, at least I would not want anyone considering me some sort of douchebag who is here for some sick and dissipated reasons. So my friend regardless of what you think bad or good which’s very significant to me, everything in the Quran is obligatory and applies till dooms day.

Nope. Nothing I want removed from the NT. Even if there were this has nothing to do with NT but with Quran and Natural law.

Convenient to assert that there are passages I “definitley want removed” but not to allow any rebuttal of that by specifying them.

 

[Marina14]

Yikes!

One of my daughter’s best friends is Muslim.

Her mom recently told me that she is trying to marry off her oldest daughter (she had 8 children before getting her tubes tied, ranging from 1 year to 24 years old), but that her daughter keeps turning down each of the men they present her with…after reading this article and the quote straight from the Qu’ran…no wonder! I wouldn’t want to get married either!

 

[jerry_h_1700]

I know many Muslim couples and I can assure you the husbands would be enraged to hear that they are lumped as “wife beaters”. matter of fact one couple who are close friends of mine, his wife is Catholic and she raises their son Catholic despite him being Muslim and he has no problem at all with that.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I know many Muslim couples and I can assure you the husbands would be enraged to hear that they are lumped as “wife beaters”. matter of fact one couple who are close friends of mine, his wife is Catholic and she raises their son Catholic despite him being Muslim and he has no problem at all with that.

It’s all very well to make judgements on Islam in Western secular countries where the laws are Western secular laws.

In Islamic countries no child of a Muslim can be brought up as anything other than a Muslim.

 

[cyberjacques]

There are PLENTY of Bible quotes that can be distorted to justify beating women. Heck, I could write a whole book on the OT, but for now I have remembered hearing many people in the past using the “wives submit to their husbands” NT passage as a way of saying that a husband could even kill his wife since she must submit to him in all things.

I would suggest that you find that passage and actually read it, and then come back and tell us if you think it excuses beating or killing your wife. There’s a big difference between scripture that must be distorted to say something bad, and scripture that actually says it in no uncertain terms. Dolphinlove has already been kind enough to provide the Koran passage that specifically says that you may beat your wife, while all jerry can come up with is a passage that can be distorted to possibly mean you can beat or kill your wife. Perhaps you could dip into that plentiful store of examples in the Bible, and fish one out that actually says something?

Has anyone else noticed how Muslim apologists are always unable to directly defend Islam? They always have to make equivalency arguments, claiming that Christianity is just as bad, or worse. But then when you corner them and ask them to support their claims with something resembling evidence, they either insist that there is too much evidence for them to possibly sift through, as jerry seems to have done, or they are forced to resort to calling you intolerant or Islamophobic. As if that somehow closes the issue in their favor.

 

[jerry_h_1700]

I would suggest that you find that passage and actually read it, and then come back and tell us if you think it excuses beating or killing your wife. There’s a big difference between scripture that must be distorted to say something bad, and scripture that actually says it in no uncertain terms. Dolphinlove has already been kind enough to provide the Koran passage that specifically says that you may beat your wife, while all jerry can come up with is a passage that can be distorted to possibly mean you can beat or kill your wife. Perhaps you could dip into that plentiful store of examples in the Bible, and fish one out that actually says something?

Has anyone else noticed how Muslim apologists are always unable to directly defend Islam? They always have to make equivalency arguments, claiming that Christianity is just as bad, or worse. But then when you corner them and ask them to support their claims with something resembling evidence, they either insist that there is too much evidence for them to possibly sift through, as jerry seems to have done, or they are forced to resort to calling you intolerant or Islamophobic. As if that somehow closes the issue in their favor.

Alright then, how about the passages where the Israelis are commanded to murder children and rape women? Is that good enough to “actually say something”?

And again the question is not what the Koran SAYS, it’s HOW people look at those passages. You are looking at the Koran the way we would look at the bible, but some schools of Islam take a very different approach, so we should be careful before assuming that Muslim ways of thinking are like ours, because while Muslim thought is rooted in Greek thought like us, it also has some differences as well. I am no Muslim expert, but neither is anyone else here, so for somebody here to cherrypick the Koran would be just as dumb as a Muslim trying to tell us what our Bible does and does not say.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I disagree that one cannot ‘cherry-pick’ the Quran.

There is only one “wife beating” verse in the Quran and no other verses touch on the subject. So if one takes the issue of “wife-beating” in the Quran - one can only go to that verse.

That is not cherry-picking - since it is the sum total of what the Quran has to say on the subject.

BTW: Muslims have been 'interpreting" the wife-beating verse the same for 14 centuries. Beating wives is allowed in the sharia from way way back.

It is only in modern times where Western sensibilities have crept into Muslim societies and ‘wife-beating’ is somehow become something shameful (for some Muslims).

In olden days, wife-beating was nothing unusual or anything to be ashamed of.

Don’t believe me - read the sharia and the pre-20th century tafsirs. They are all unanimous that a Muslim can and should beat his disobedient wife/wives.

 

[jerry_h_1700]

In olden days, wife-beating was nothing unusual or anything to be ashamed of.

But that was true of almost every older society and culture! Ancient Greece, Rome, China, India, Native Americans, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims.

Funny how many people on these boards take on the radical feminist cause, yet they only pick on Muslims. Since when has anyone here complained about the Hindu practice of wives throwing themselves onto bonfires when their husbands died? What about the Han Chinese practice of life-long foot binding? What about Mormons who still practice polygamy?

Let’s face it, 10 years ago no one here would even be discussing this matter, this isn’t about objective criticism of practices in Islam, what this really involves is our typical “demonization for the decade” routine, whether they be “Huns” or “Ruskies” or “The Yellow hoard”, I bet 10 years from now we will find some other people or group that everyone is bashing on and we will have forgotten about those “Evil Mooslems”.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

But that was true of almost every older society and culture! Ancient Greece, Rome, China, India, Native Americans, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims.

Funny how many people on these boards take on the radical feminist cause, yet they only pick on Muslims. Since when has anyone here complained about the Hindu practice of wives throwing themselves onto bonfires when their husbands died? What about the Han Chinese practice of life-long foot binding? What about Mormons who still practice polygamy?

Let’s face it, 10 years ago no one here would even be discussing this matter, this isn’t about objective criticism of practices in Islam, what this really involves is our typical “demonization for the decade” routine, whether they be “Huns” or “Ruskies” or “The Yellow hoard”, I bet 10 years from now we will find some other people or group that everyone is bashing on and we will have forgotten about those “Evil Mooslems”.

Firstly, you mistake what is human inspired practices and what purports to be a Holy Commandment.

Why the issue with wife-beating in the Quran is much worst than any of the examples you gave above is that it purports to come from God.

Surely you would expect something better from God.

If you noticed the Chinese no longer practice foot-binding, and the Mormons generally no longer practice polygamy. The Hindu practice of Suti is also no longer practised.

Thirdly, you are engaging in tu quoque. Just because some people do wrong does not excuse wrong-doing.

If you are caught committing a crime will the judge accept your argument that there are other criminals? Why did the cops pick on you when there are other criminals out there?

What do you think the judge will say?

 

[cyberjacques]

Alright then, how about the passages where the Israelis are commanded to murder children and rape women? Is that good enough to “actually say something”?

Clearly you have neglected to read the rest of this thread, or you would have realized that I already answered this question, twice. Go read the rest of the thread. Oh, and by the way, nobody in the Bible was ever told to rape someone. Where do people get this stuff? Yet again you demonstrate your complete ignorance of the Bible. As for your complete ignorance of the Koran, I believe Rodrigo has satisfactorily addressed the rest.

 

[jerry_h_1700]

Oh, and by the way, nobody in the Bible was ever told to rape someone. Where do people get this stuff? Yet again you demonstrate your complete ignorance of the Bible.

It seems ignorance is on your part…

Numbers 31: 17-18

1. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
2. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

also check out Numbers 31: 25-40

 

[cyberjacques]

It seems ignorance is on your part…

Numbers 31: 17-18

1. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
2. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

also check out Numbers 31: 25-40

First, Moses said this, not God. And you can always tell when a prophet is relaying direct instructions from God, because they always preface it with, “Thus says the Lord”, or something else to that effect. Second, he’s not telling them to rape anyone. You’re assuming that these girls were kept as concubines, right? Some probably were, but keep in mind that a man was only permitted to take as a concubine a servant of his wife, and his wife had to approve. Someone correct me on this if I’m wrong. The girls that were kept would have become servants for older women, most likely the wives of the military commanders. And if their wives didn’t want the girls to be concubines of their husbands, they wouldn’t be. Taking a concubine wasn’t considered rape even if the girl wasn’t entirely willing. And while such things offend our modern sensibilities, that was just the way it worked all over the known world at the time. Did some of those girls get raped? It’s possible, some of those commanders could have been scumbags and raped some girls. But they certainly weren’t told to. I would advise you to read up on Biblical history, and learn a bit about the ancient cultures in that area. This way you can avoid any further distortions.

It’s also of little use to compare the ancient Israelites to modern Christians. A large portion of the value of reading the OT is learning what NOT to do. The Israelites at this time were basically being dragged out of the stoneage as far as their morality was concerned. God took them through baby steps so they wouldn’t backslide. He allowed them a few crutches, such as divorce and slaves, but slowly removed these as the people got the hang of things. And they screwed up. A lot. For a long time. Their screw-ups are well documented, and so are God’s reactions.

Thank you, though, for responding with an actual scripture passage. Perhaps this can be a useful dialog after all.

 

[jerry_h_1700]

And while such things offend our modern sensibilities, that was just the way it worked all over the known world at the time… It’s also of little use to compare the ancient Israelites to modern Christians…

And yet this is what I was arguing earlier, we are dealing with Islam which, depending on which Muslim country you are in, may have different ways of culture and rules than we, and even if we agree that a practice they do is objectively wrong under all circumstances, I still think there are better ways to deal with the subject than to just blame the whole thing on their holy books, which they still believe to be truth though we as non-Muslims believe otherwise. And also for all those who scream about women over there “being oppressed”, if they really believe thats the case I still have not yet heard one idea for a solution from anyone. As far as I see it Islam is in a transition period where they are having to deal with the modern world, and this will be a rough period for them with many wanting to resist the modern world, but for every step back they may take, at least they continue taking two steps forward, so while it may be a slow process, I do see Islam having to inevitably adapting to the current modern world, despite the attempt of minorities like Al-Qaeda not wanting that.

 

[Elvi]

And also for all those who scream about women over there “being oppressed”, if they really believe thats the case I still have not yet heard one idea for a solution from anyone.

Getting rid of Islam. Eradicate it. Eye for an eye, hand for a hand, barbaric law should not be applied on modern society where much better ‘humane’ punishment can be given.